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Post by bluemeii on Jul 17, 2014 13:49:38 GMT -5
And Thor is based of an at one time worshipped diety along with some of the characters from Asgard in the comics. Sorry, not getting over the whole "gender change for marketing" thing they are doing. If the change was being done for the sake of storytelling, you know what fine. This isn't. This is solely for the news bite. Why are they relaunching the series (again......) at #1 otherwise. So a fictional character based off a fictional character being changed into woman for marketing purposes is a problem nearly everything Marvel/DC does is for marketing purposes. Let's not act like this is the ONE thing they do to get attention. And its too early to say whether or not its being done for the sake of storytelling - they could have a really good story set up for this female Thor. Not holding my breath because its marvel, but still. Like I've said earlier in this thread. When you start f***ing with a character that people have an emotional and monetary investment in over the course of 30 years plus of collecting and they just go "yep...Thor's a girl now". Yeah I got a problem with it. A big damn problem with it. If others don't, hey that's cool good for you. All it is to ME, is taking a shit on long time fans for the sake of shock value.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 13:55:44 GMT -5
So a fictional character based off a fictional character being changed into woman for marketing purposes is a problem nearly everything Marvel/DC does is for marketing purposes. Let's not act like this is the ONE thing they do to get attention. And its too early to say whether or not its being done for the sake of storytelling - they could have a really good story set up for this female Thor. Not holding my breath because its marvel, but still. Like I've said earlier in this thread. When you start f***ing with a character that people have an emotional and monetary investment in over the course of 30 years plus of collecting and they just go "yep...Thor's a girl now". Yeah I got a problem with it. A big damn problem with it. If others don't, hey that's cool good for you. All it is to ME, is taking a shit on long time fans for the sake of shock value. I totally, totally get that. I even said earlier that if someone's uncomfortable with change because they want to hold on to their pre-concieved notion of what they believe the character to be, that's understandable, but I don't see it as justification for not changing something. Changing for 'shock value' or just to keep something fresh that may have gotten stale, to me, is the same as keeping it the same just because "that's the way its always been done!" Neither rationale is especially thoughtful or compelling to me. I mean, I do think people take changes a little personally though. No one's "taking a shit" on anyone in this situation. Marvel is trying to draw in more female readers(?) possibly and while you may feel they're taking a shit on you personally, they're probably just trying to also take fewer shits on female fans - fans they've been shitting on so much they could start their own port-a-pottie business.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 14:35:30 GMT -5
Man, if I were Marvel, I'd totally take advantage of the massive gap in superhero comics there is right now.
Push out Storm, Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, have a woman be Thor and bring her in on the act...just go crazy with it.
What's DC gonna do? Push Wonder Woman? Yeah, right...
Be wary of what they're doing with Batgirl? Okay, we'll see how long that goes.
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Post by "I'm Batman..." on Jul 17, 2014 16:07:13 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}
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Post by DSR on Jul 17, 2014 17:30:45 GMT -5
I tend to not care too much unless race was a major part of the character, which most of the time it's not. Kingpin I thought was perfect because Micheal Clark Duncan seemed to be the only person on the planet built bulky enough to be Kingpin anyway. Now I want to see Native American Captain America. I think it could be awesome.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 17, 2014 17:36:52 GMT -5
That's happened a couple times actually then. The What If you posted, the 'almost' way with Black Crow, and then in Gaiman's 1602 he was a white Amerind that went by the name Rojhaz.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 17:46:43 GMT -5
I still think Donald Glover would of been a better Peter Parker then Andrew Garfield.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 18:09:53 GMT -5
And Thor is based of an at one time worshipped diety along with some of the characters from Asgard in the comics. Sorry, not getting over the whole "gender change for marketing" thing they are doing. If the change was being done for the sake of storytelling, you know what fine. This isn't. This is solely for the news bite. Why are they relaunching the series (again......) at #1 otherwise. So a fictional character based off a fictional character being changed into woman for marketing purposes is a problem nearly everything Marvel/DC does is for marketing purposes. Let's not act like this is the ONE thing they do to get attention. And its too early to say whether or not its being done for the sake of storytelling - they could have a really good story set up for this female Thor. Not holding my breath because its marvel, but still. ...so, apparently bagging on another religion isn't against the rules because pagans? According to Marvel lore, wasn't Thor a dude from Asgard who was also the son of Odin? So...how can someone be Thor if they're not a dude from Asgard and they're not a son of Odin? And aren't they still making movies where Thor is, in canon, a guy? This reeks of either a half-assed retcon or a lame publicity stunt to sell comics.
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Post by The Tank on Jul 17, 2014 18:12:25 GMT -5
That's happened a couple times actually then. The What If you posted, the 'almost' way with Black Crow, and then in Gaiman's 1602 he was a white Amerind that went by the name Rojhaz. Yeah, but Rojhaz was just a time-travelling version of Steve Rogers or some shit. I don't remember the exact detail, but he was not actually a native.
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the2ndevil
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Post by the2ndevil on Jul 17, 2014 18:37:15 GMT -5
I am reminded of the initial reactions to the new Starbuck in the '03 Battlestar Galactica.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 17, 2014 18:43:33 GMT -5
I just hate it when characters are just made black/asian/woman/trans/gay/etc and then writers go "Done!" and that's their ENTIRE character. Especially hate it when critics cheer that practice on, caring that the hero of Infamous: Second Son was a Native American, and ignoring that's ALL he was, just cause he wasn't another "grizzled white dude".
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 17, 2014 18:47:51 GMT -5
And as people have said, it's funny how it's never seen as a problem when it's the other way round. Bullcrap. Where do you think the term "whitewashing" comes from? Things like The Hunger Games, the upcoming Moses, Bane in TDKR, Into Darkness, The Last Airbender, Batman vs Superman, and so on and so forth. If you honestly never heard anyone complaining about a ethnic character turned white, it's factual that you have not been alive for over an hour.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 18:55:06 GMT -5
And as people have said, it's funny how it's never seen as a problem when it's the other way round. Bullcrap. Where do you think the term "whitewashing" comes from? Things like The Hunger Games, the upcoming Moses, Bane in TDKR, Into Darkness, The Last Airbender, Batman vs Superman, and so on and so forth. If you honestly never heard anyone complaining about a ethnic character turned white, it's factual that you have not been alive for over an hour. And this is even applicable to things with white people, i.e. all the movies about ancient Greece, Rome, Persia, etc. where everyone and their mom is Irish or British (Except for The Rock and Brazilian Xerxes). There are over 100 million ethnic Italians, 60 million Persians and 12 million Greeks. They couldn't find one person from a pool that size for these movies? Like...a movie about Rome that stars Italians and is spoken in Latin (heck, even liturgical Latin) would be so awesome. But...nope. Got to have the ten thousandth lame popcorn flick with some English dude takes center stage.
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Post by Zombie Mod on Jul 17, 2014 19:04:45 GMT -5
A wizard did it, the end.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 17, 2014 19:10:47 GMT -5
I have the same opinion with casting, if the actor's good, great, if it's challenging the imbalance aspirational TV has for making every one a white straight bloke up until the year 2000 at the same time, even better. As long as it makes sense in the products internal logic then what's the issue? I'm in this boat as well. To me, I'm more concerned about the quality of the actor portraying the character rather than the ethnicity/gender of the actor. The only caveat is if the character is somehow rooted deeply in their race to the point casting against that would be detrimental to the story. I'd say the majority of comic book characters' race aren't that central to the plot or the spirit of the character. Especially ironic is the fact that many of the more prominent Marvel characters were created as a reaction to the racism and prejudice in America. So if you REALLY want to stay true to the character.... If people just want to hold on to what they know/percieve the character to be in its original medium, I understand that sentiment, but don't see it as a valid reason for NOT casting a more-than-capable actor to portray a role whose race doesn't really play a factor in the story. And the arguement that "the creators intended them to be white...." or whatever is a pretty empty talking point when you consider that DC/Marvel has made numerous changes to a characters' origin/personality over the years that many current intepretations of a character in a comic book are a far cry from what they started as. So the "creator's intentions" thing doesn't really hold water. All of this. Also, it's nothing new. Orson Welles was putting on productions of Macbeth using all-black casts in 1936. It was a hit and traveled the nation because it was good. Times change and things evolve. 99% of the super heroes being white males was perfectly fine in 1961; that was who pretty much dominated the country in every aspect. That's not true these days and as such, things have to change up a bit to better fit the audience and the society it is part of. Let's remember where some of these characters have stood before. The whole thing with Magneto being Jewish and a Holocaust survivor? That didn't even become a thing until the 1980s. Up until then, he was just another white megalomaniacal villain. Now it's his core trait and has been embraced by fandom.
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Post by Red Impact on Jul 17, 2014 19:16:03 GMT -5
Thor's brother has been a woman and a frog before, it's not like this sort of thing is mind-blowing.
Besides that, the story I read phrased it so that it isn't just that Thor's suddenly a woman now, it's that, for some reason, the original Thor is no longer worthy of the hammer, and the person who is is a woman who takes up the mantle. They were talking about how they needed to update the script on the hammer so that it isn't "has the power of Thor" anymore.
I will say I agree with Mickey C on something, and that's that creators shouldn't just resolve to photoshop white skin brown and call it a day. They need to make the characters distinct when they make a change, like how they did with Captain Marvel (twice). But the whole "make a new character" argument just won't work when new characters of different races come in and get squashed by stodgy editors or traditionalist readers who won't veer from the status quo. "Only how the creators intended" doesn't really work as an argument when the creators were alive at a time when blackface still wasn't quite so appalling.
Complaining about Annie being black is stupid to me though. The theater world does this all the time, for what has to be over a hundred years now. IT's not a publicity stunt or PC run amok or anything, it's theater doing what theater has always done, and the only people upset by that particular one are either racially motivated or completely unaware of how the world of theater operates.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jul 17, 2014 19:16:29 GMT -5
I feel like Marvel is trying to get younger fans in and barely caring about the hardcore fans That's exactly what they're doing and that's exactly what they should be doing. That's what EVERY franchise should be doing. You cater to one particular fanbase, especially a hardcore "niche" fanbase (and given the sales of individual comics lately, yes, it's a niche now and barely mainstream), then you end up with the fanbase growing old or moving on and you're left with...what? Nothing. It is absolutely essential for Marvel and DC and Disney and Doctor Who and TMNT and WWE and every other character brand/franchise out there to keep pulling in new audiences, new generations. Catering to the hardcores is death. Fresh blood is essential.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jul 17, 2014 19:19:40 GMT -5
I'm in this boat as well. To me, I'm more concerned about the quality of the actor portraying the character rather than the ethnicity/gender of the actor. The only caveat is if the character is somehow rooted deeply in their race to the point casting against that would be detrimental to the story. I'd say the majority of comic book characters' race aren't that central to the plot or the spirit of the character. Especially ironic is the fact that many of the more prominent Marvel characters were created as a reaction to the racism and prejudice in America. So if you REALLY want to stay true to the character.... If people just want to hold on to what they know/percieve the character to be in its original medium, I understand that sentiment, but don't see it as a valid reason for NOT casting a more-than-capable actor to portray a role whose race doesn't really play a factor in the story. And the arguement that "the creators intended them to be white...." or whatever is a pretty empty talking point when you consider that DC/Marvel has made numerous changes to a characters' origin/personality over the years that many current intepretations of a character in a comic book are a far cry from what they started as. So the "creator's intentions" thing doesn't really hold water. All of this. Also, it's nothing new. Orson Welles was putting on productions of Macbeth using all-black casts in 1936. It was a hit and traveled the nation because it was good. Times change and things evolve. 99% of the super heroes being white males was perfectly fine in 1961; that was who pretty much dominated the country in every aspect. That's not true these days and as such, things have to change up a bit to better fit the audience and the society it is part of. Let's remember where some of these characters have stood before. The whole thing with Magneto being Jewish and a Holocaust survivor? That didn't even become a thing until the 1980s. Up until then, he was just another white megalomaniacal villain. Now it's his core trait and has been embraced by fandom. I really think you guy are missing the point, or maybe that, for me at least, that is not the issue. I hate the "because" effect. "We can make this former white hero a different race. Why? Because." "We can make this former male character a female. Why? Because." "We can make this former straight character gay or trans. Why? Be.Cause." If you're going to change a character, let it be cause you have a interesting story to tell about this character or it gives the writer or creative team a bunch of new avenues in telling a story that will resonate. Tell it because it's an interesting evolution that people might or might have have seen hints of over the years. Not to fill in some quota that someone thrusts on you or some change for the hell of it cause the cocaine bucket over at Marvel/DC/etc got low that week and they need something to hype up. You know. "Because".
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Post by Brood Lone Wolf Funker on Jul 17, 2014 19:21:01 GMT -5
I feel like Marvel is trying to get younger fans in and barely caring about the hardcore fans That's exactly what they're doing and that's exactly what they should be doing. That's what EVERY franchise should be doing. You cater to one particular fanbase, especially a hardcore "niche" fanbase (and given the sales of individual comics lately, yes, it's a niche now and barely mainstream), then you end up with the fanbase growing old or moving on and you're left with...what? Nothing. It is absolutely essential for Marvel and DC and Disney and Doctor Who and TMNT and WWE and every other character brand/franchise out there to keep pulling in new audiences, new generations. Catering to the hardcores is death. Fresh blood is essential. Honestly there is a game on Facebook Avengers Alliance and it has some obscure characters which got me into some of the issues and things I have never heard about like Squirrel Girl, Moonknight, plus the movies are getting more attention to the comics as well. The younger audience though has a more flexible budget because sometimes parents will pay for them or they can afford it themselves. One more thing too, their is a character in Avengers Initiative named Thor Girl
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 19:22:29 GMT -5
So a fictional character based off a fictional character being changed into woman for marketing purposes is a problem nearly everything Marvel/DC does is for marketing purposes. Let's not act like this is the ONE thing they do to get attention. And its too early to say whether or not its being done for the sake of storytelling - they could have a really good story set up for this female Thor. Not holding my breath because its marvel, but still. ...so, apparently bagging on another religion isn't against the rules because pagans? This reeks of either a half-assed retcon or a lame publicity stunt to sell comics. Haha! I hope this entire post is well-done sarcasm because if you're seriously trying to say that me stating a Norse God is a fictional character is some how Pagan-bashing - well, that's just outright ridiculous and/or blatant trolling. According to Marvel lore? Please tell me you're not trying to invoke Marvel Comics canon because that thing has only slightly worse continuity than DC's and slightly better than WWE's. I mean, is the best argument people have is, "Uh, well - he was a guy before so he shouldn't ever change."
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