Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 26, 2014 10:16:00 GMT -5
You really weren't supposed to boo Apollo... I mean he was the antagonist simply because he was the champ. He was cocky and over-confident but he was the champ going against a nobody. Rocky movies usually don't have clear bad guys made out of the guys he is boxing, with the exception of maybe Tommy Gunn, and even his story is somewhat tragic. No, not talking about his actor's AIDS, just since I am sure someone will make that joke. He was basically Icarus and couldn't understand that Rock wasn't trying to hold him back, but prepare him, so his fall from grace was different than just being a straight up villain. Though, that movie sucks so badly, I can't exactly blame anyone for not caring. I think the most unlikable character in the films is probably Pauley, though I guess the Don King stand in wasn't exactly much better. What about Drago? Drago was a pawn, and while he was a dick, he is basically redeemed by finally breaking free of the machine after being shaken from its control, confronted with someone who made him question the superiority of his way of life. It wasn't exactly a subtle political commentary, but I guess a good way of comparing it to something might be Android 16 in Dragonball Z.
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Post by hossfan on Aug 26, 2014 10:18:34 GMT -5
It's a story about competition, and as such, all the general sports tropes apply. One of those tropes is being irrationally confident. What makes a champion a champion is belief in himself/herself. We see that all the time with superstars, even ones past their prime. So, again, its not illogical for a fictional character playing one of the most dominant performers in his sport saying "I can wreck the guy who just wrecked me." You can say they are deluded or wrong for believing it, but them saying it is not in itself illogical. Eh, I just gave you a real example of what you're talking about, and how that was correctly looked at as dumb. If you're just gonna handwave that away, there's really not much else I can say to ya. Clearly we're not gonna convince the other, so I'll just say we disagree and leave it at that. I didn't "handwave" anything. Your statement proved my point. Its not illogical to have a character act confident after being humbled because there are examples in the real world. You can feel Cena is dumb for saying he's going to kick Lesnar's ass after the beating he gave him, but its not illogical for him to have said it. Edit: In other words, its not illogical for Cena to have said something some might consider dumb.
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Post by Robbymac on Aug 26, 2014 10:20:45 GMT -5
The only salvageable option now is for Brock to savage him even more savagely in the rematch. There's certainly this option. At that point Cena would have to be doubting himself.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 10:23:42 GMT -5
The only salvageable option now is for Brock to savage him even more savagely in the rematch. There's certainly this option. At that point Cena would have to be doubting himself. Let's be honest, if it happens again, Cena'll probably take a week off then come out and challenge Rusev to prove the US's superiority while pretending the Lesnar thing never happened.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 26, 2014 10:23:56 GMT -5
The only salvageable option now is for Brock to savage him even more savagely in the rematch. There's certainly this option. At that point Cena would have to be doubting himself. I think people will probably get their wish, anyway. I'm expecting that Cena might get more offense in this time, but the end result is going to be awfully reminiscent of Brock vs Hogan.
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Aug 26, 2014 10:25:48 GMT -5
Because they're black. Until Rocky 4, it was Rocky playing the Great White Hope. In real life at the time, the heavyweight boxing scene was dominated by black boxers. Rocky was the fantasy outlet for folks who longed the days of Rocky Machiano ruling the roost. *Language* I love the Rocky movies, but that is damn funny. "Oh! You just saw Rocky! Now look little Italian white man.."
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Aug 26, 2014 10:27:48 GMT -5
Partially, and it was clearly a pretty big ancillary benefit obviously; but you could've told the Rocky story with a black character too if they'd have done it. He didn't HAVE to be a white audience avatar really to be an underdog necessarily. You're totally right obviously in the way it was presented though. Although I will say you were also supposed to boo Apollo and Clubber because of their arrogance and ruthlessness respectively, and because Rocky was the protagonist, so you actually saw his entire character rather than just negative traits like the 'villains'. At that time; if they told Rocky but with Black characters, it would had been written off as Blaxplotation. Apollo was in the vein of Muhammad Ali, the boastful asshole who backed up his talk but you wanted to see get put in his place. Lang was suppose to be the street thug who was uncivilized and a threat to society and boxing. But since I grew up in the hood and fellow ghetto child, I cheered for Clubber because I had a lot in common with him. Rocky lost to Lang because his own arrogance and lackadaisical attitude. Lang straight up owned his ass. It took Rocky going back to his roots before he could defeat him. In the Rocky movies though, I would say that Creed is presented as far more intelligent and civilised and a better athlete than Balboa. The movies gave the idea though that Rocky had more 'heart'.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Aug 26, 2014 10:28:55 GMT -5
What about Drago? He's pretty close to being a straight villain. Drago is like Rusev. Cartoonish and the stereotypical Evil Russian. It helped the Cold War was still going on and people didn't care about fleshed out characters. Kinda like with real world events helping out Rusev.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Aug 26, 2014 10:33:35 GMT -5
At that time; if they told Rocky but with Black characters, it would had been written off as Blaxplotation. Apollo was in the vein of Muhammad Ali, the boastful asshole who backed up his talk but you wanted to see get put in his place. Lang was suppose to be the street thug who was uncivilized and a threat to society and boxing. But since I grew up in the hood and fellow ghetto child, I cheered for Clubber because I had a lot in common with him. Rocky lost to Lang because his own arrogance and lackadaisical attitude. Lang straight up owned his ass. It took Rocky going back to his roots before he could defeat him. In the Rocky movies though, I would say that Creed is presented as far more intelligent and civilised and a better athlete than Balboa. The movies gave the idea though that Rocky had more 'heart'. Creed was presented like that so Rocky's underdog story had more bite. He was fighting against a man who was his polar opposite.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 26, 2014 10:57:38 GMT -5
Eh, I just gave you a real example of what you're talking about, and how that was correctly looked at as dumb. If you're just gonna handwave that away, there's really not much else I can say to ya. Clearly we're not gonna convince the other, so I'll just say we disagree and leave it at that. I didn't "handwave" anything. Your statement proved my point. Its not illogical to have a character act confident after being humbled because there are examples in the real world. You can feel Cena is dumb for saying he's going to kick Lesnar's ass after the beating he gave him, but its not illogical for him to have said it. Edit: In other words, its not illogical for Cena to have said something some might consider dumb. As I said, if his character is a dumb guy, then yes, but that's not what WWE portray him as. Look at the way WWE.COM covered RAW. They aren't interpreting Cena's actions as that of a deluded fool but someone who is focused and dedicated now, as if he wasn't before Summerslam which they never conveyed. Look at the way they reported his match against the Wyatts. Cena "bares his teeth"...."his shell isn't as cracked as Bray thought"....."Cena made Bray eat his words"....."Cena offered a forceful rebuttal to the legend's panel"...."The Wyatts do not go quietly into defeat, but when faced with the largest team on the planet and a former World Champion looking to send a message, defeat is all but inevitable"......"Cena entered off Show’s tag and quickly tapped out Harper with the STF, though he had time for a few more messages. Specifically, Attitude Adjustments to each member of The Wyatt Family". They are glorifying his supposed intensity rather than highlighting his delusional bravado and stupid posturing.
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Post by hossfan on Aug 26, 2014 11:23:04 GMT -5
I didn't "handwave" anything. Your statement proved my point. Its not illogical to have a character act confident after being humbled because there are examples in the real world. You can feel Cena is dumb for saying he's going to kick Lesnar's ass after the beating he gave him, but its not illogical for him to have said it. Edit: In other words, its not illogical for Cena to have said something some might consider dumb. As I said, if his character is a dumb guy, then yes, but that's not what WWE portray him as. Look at the way WWE.COM covered RAW. They aren't interpreting Cena's actions as that of a deluded fool but someone who is focused and dedicated now, as if he wasn't before Summerslam which they never conveyed. Look at the way they reported his match against the Wyatts. Cena "bares his teeth"...."his shell isn't as cracked as Bray thought"....."Cena made Bray eat his words"....."Cena offered a forceful rebuttal to the legend's panel"...."The Wyatts do not go quietly into defeat, but when faced with the largest team on the planet and a former World Champion looking to send a message, defeat is all but inevitable"......"Cena entered off Show’s tag and quickly tapped out Harper with the STF, though he had time for a few more messages. Specifically, Attitude Adjustments to each member of The Wyatt Family". They are glorifying his supposed intensity rather than highlighting his delusional bravado and stupid posturing. WWE.com is hyping up one half of the main event of their next Pay Per View. The advertising arm of a wrestling promotion should be trying to build up the rep of a man who was utterly destroyed in his last fight. That's completely logical story-telling.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 26, 2014 11:30:55 GMT -5
As I said, if his character is a dumb guy, then yes, but that's not what WWE portray him as. Look at the way WWE.COM covered RAW. They aren't interpreting Cena's actions as that of a deluded fool but someone who is focused and dedicated now, as if he wasn't before Summerslam which they never conveyed. Look at the way they reported his match against the Wyatts. Cena "bares his teeth"...."his shell isn't as cracked as Bray thought"....."Cena made Bray eat his words"....."Cena offered a forceful rebuttal to the legend's panel"...."The Wyatts do not go quietly into defeat, but when faced with the largest team on the planet and a former World Champion looking to send a message, defeat is all but inevitable"......"Cena entered off Show’s tag and quickly tapped out Harper with the STF, though he had time for a few more messages. Specifically, Attitude Adjustments to each member of The Wyatt Family". They are glorifying his supposed intensity rather than highlighting his delusional bravado and stupid posturing. WWE.com is hyping up one half of the main event of their next Pay Per View. The advertising arm of a wrestling promotion should be trying to build up the rep of a man who was utterly destroyed in his last fight. That's completely logical story-telling. I see. So he's a broken man who now needs to be built up. Didn't seem to be last night. I thought he was also supposed to be dumb and deluded? Guess not. I guess Cena is a man for all seasons, depending on what they and others want the contrived narrative to be from week to week.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 26, 2014 11:41:37 GMT -5
A question for all those who think Cena is acting "illogically". When a sports star gets absolutely beaten in competition, beaten to the point that its quite clear who the better man/team is, how often do you see them admit it the next time the two face? How many show actual doubt before the rematch? Doesn't happen often. Its just as likely they're going to puff up their chest and make some kind of bold prediction about them winning. This is what happens in the real world. If it happens in the real world, you cannot claim it makes no sense, because there are concrete examples of it happening. No, what happens in the real world is they do that after being shelved for weeks and licking their wounds and actually HEALING. A guy who takes a monumental beating SELLS his injuries and is actually physically INCAPABLE of beating up anyone 8 days later, let alone another top contender. In fact, it would be impossible for him to even be medically cleared in the first place to do so. That's why it's illogical, your stance on sports reality is wrong and your point soundly defeated. (Seriously, you're the one who "wants" something to go their way. I just negated every single thing you said. It's over. Time to move on). If you're going to use sports analogies and reality as your measuring sticks perhaps having an actual concept of their protocol and ramifications would help your argument.
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riseofsetian1981
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Aug 26, 2014 11:58:35 GMT -5
My dream scenario would be Cena attempting to be more aggressive with his methods against Brock and still gets himself destroyed. I think it's a better story if the WWE proves they have the gut to go through with it.
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Post by hossfan on Aug 26, 2014 12:21:53 GMT -5
A question for all those who think Cena is acting "illogically". When a sports star gets absolutely beaten in competition, beaten to the point that its quite clear who the better man/team is, how often do you see them admit it the next time the two face? How many show actual doubt before the rematch? Doesn't happen often. Its just as likely they're going to puff up their chest and make some kind of bold prediction about them winning. This is what happens in the real world. If it happens in the real world, you cannot claim it makes no sense, because there are concrete examples of it happening. No, what happens in the real world is they do that after being shelved for weeks and licking their wounds and actually HEALING. A guy who takes a monumental beating SELLS his injuries and is actually physically INCAPABLE of beating up anyone 8 days later, let alone another top contender. In fact, it would be impossible for him to even be medically cleared in the first place to do so. That's why it's illogical, your stance on sports reality is wrong and your point soundly defeated. (Seriously, you're the one who "wants" something to go their way. I just negated every single thing you said. It's over. Time to move on). If you're going to use sports analogies and reality as your measuring sticks perhaps having an actual concept of their protocol and ramifications would help your argument. Nope. Time between confrontations has nothing to do with how humble a super star is going to be the next time he faces a foe. I do like the false bravado posturing this post includes though. It reeks of desperation and makes your argument that much less convincing. Why don't you tell me again about how you're a "professional writer" and as such have a better understanding of what and what isn't logical storytelling?
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 26, 2014 12:23:46 GMT -5
People can debate their points without resorting to name-calling or belittling. Please keep this civil. It's wrestling, no reason to get heated over it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 12:53:28 GMT -5
In the Rocky movies though, I would say that Creed is presented as far more intelligent and civilised and a better athlete than Balboa. The movies gave the idea though that Rocky had more 'heart'. Creed was presented like that so Rocky's underdog story had more bite. He was fighting against a man who was his polar opposite. Apollo was also arrogant and complacent from whooping tomato cans in his most recent fights. Although he was still the most technically gifted fighter, he battled guys who fought his fight, which made it easy for him to win every time. The fact that Apollo was unsettled at the prospect of Rocky refusing to lay down goes to show how soft he had gotten. That and Balboa had a granite chin which meant all Apollo could hope to do was beat him on points (and that was Apollo's undoing in Rocky II when going for the KO got him KO'd). Clubber was stronger and more aggressive than Rocky but was nothing more than a glorified club fighter. With even a rudimentary strategy, Balboa destroyed him and he was never seen again.
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Post by sonofblaine on Aug 26, 2014 13:16:47 GMT -5
I literally was so disgusted at that pure runny shits ending I had to get up and walk it off. I swear, I wish people would just turn their backs to cena from here till the ppv in protest of that explosive diarrhea type of booking and burying of wyatt for no damn reason. No cheers, no boos, just turn your backs. And stick soap in the mouths of the kids and women cheering for him. Yeah. Since I usually don't watch RAW until the morning after, I don't come onto the boards, to avoiud spoilers until I've finished Raw, but in the first few minutes, when I saw tha tthey were ruining Wyatt to make Cena look unbeatable, I just shook my head and came on here to read the obvious shitstorm, and just mildly listened to the predictable ending in the background. I rarely get pissed or call an episode of WWE horrible (I've mellowed alot since me really hardcore smark days and just enjoy the product), but this sucked. There wasn't some other jobber they could have fed to Cena to say "He's sending a point to Brock!" Instead, let's squash not only Wyatt but also Rowan and Harper, who seemed to have been getting a decent rub lately. A story of Cena spending this month to NoC doubting himself, maybe being scared and reflecting on how bad he was beaten would have been way more interesting than "I'm gonna try harder, Jack!" It have that same vibe as when he spent almost a whole year saying "I have to beat the Rock at wrestlemania. It's the only way..." and then the night after he lost, he comes out on Raw and basically shrugs, gives his shit-eating grin and goes "Oh well! Best man won!"
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Magnus the Magnificent
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Aug 26, 2014 13:26:52 GMT -5
Cena just needs prep time. Please, Cena is Superman, not the Goddamned Batman.
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SEAN CARLESS
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Aug 26, 2014 13:28:08 GMT -5
No, what happens in the real world is they do that after being shelved for weeks and licking their wounds and actually HEALING. A guy who takes a monumental beating SELLS his injuries and is actually physically INCAPABLE of beating up anyone 8 days later, let alone another top contender. In fact, it would be impossible for him to even be medically cleared in the first place to do so. That's why it's illogical, your stance on sports reality is wrong and your point soundly defeated. (Seriously, you're the one who "wants" something to go their way. I just negated every single thing you said. It's over. Time to move on). If you're going to use sports analogies and reality as your measuring sticks perhaps having an actual concept of their protocol and ramifications would help your argument. Nope. Time between confrontations has nothing to do with how humble a super star is going to be the next time he faces a foe. I do like the false bravado posturing this post includes though. It reeks of desperation and makes your argument that much less convincing. Why don't you tell me again about how you're a "professional writer" and as such have a better understanding of what and what isn't logical storytelling? It has everything to do when he is CAPABLE of facing a foe. That's where your sports analogy falls on its ass and dies on the vine. In the real world, Cena would be kicking no one's ass after that beating for weeks, no matter how he wanted to approach the situation psychologically. So real life can't be a talking point for you. It's been squashed. That said, the issue at hand comes not from Cena's attitude, but by the fact he sold nothing. WWE discarded the entire narrative to re-inflate Cena out of fear. They took the natural narrative: Brock, despite being his physical superior, being unable to break Cena and make him quit, and then out fear that he looked weak (and not unbreakably valiant) they made Cena come back, with no wear, and kick the ass of a guy he struggled with for months whilst healthy. It was stupid, irrational, and undefendable. I don't care if it was Cena or anyone else. It's absurd. As for "desperation", you're the one clinging to a ridiculous disproven stance ad nauseam out of pure stubbornness. You keep throwing out the explanation that detractors "want it to be their way" when you are the one doing the same thing -- only without a single shred of actual evidence or reason. You keep repeating the same tired argument, and said argument has been defeated. As for your snarky "writer" thing: there are rules to story structure, pacing, exposition, etc. And WWE breaks those rules. Constantly. And if you actually had a concept of them, you would know and see it. So when I get angry with that, it's because I, unlike yourself obviously, have had those rules drilled into me by those professors I had who knew a whole lot more than I did at the time. It's not my fault that I approach stories from the intended position of proper structure and development, and call out loopholes and flaws therein. Maybe I would enjoy wrestling more if I watched it through a child-like mindset like yourself. In fact I probably would. Because all reason, logic and accountability would be suspended, and I could just take what is being presented at face value no matter how fundamentally flawed and incorrect it was/is. But sadly, I'm not wired that way. But all the power to you for doing so. Keep reaching for that rainbow.
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