mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 19:28:03 GMT -5
While I can't see any other way than this for people to get their desire of EVERYONE on the roster looking strong, unfortunately I don't think WWE are willing take the possible ratings and attendance hit. I doubt somebody buying a ticket to WWE is going to choose not to because I they an enhancement talent on television. And for ratings, I would argue that Joe Blow watching TV isn't anymore more likely to change the channel from Rusev squashing some guy in a singlet in a minute than he is Rusev squashing Sin Cara in a minute. Same for people channel flipping. if you know the match after Rusev's squash will be good you might stick around vs sticking around for the enxt jobber match
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 19:29:12 GMT -5
Lower card guys could be pushed. If jobbers were brought in, a guy like Zack Ryder could get some wins, actually pleasing his fans for a change instead of watching him get obliterated constantly. I just don't see it happening that way. Especially not with, as you've described, "a senile old carny" like Vince in charge. Zack doesn't need to just randomly hit his spots on little skinny twigs who look barely out of high school. Lowercard guys could be pushed NOW, but WWE just refuses to. I'd rather watch Zack and Heath Slater getting to put on a 10 minute clinic where both guys look good no matter who wins. I want to watch Zack have a competitive loss against an upper midcard guy like Miz. I want to see Zack and Alex Riley have a face vs. face comedy feud that the commentators try to sell as being "epic" by throwing in video packages and contract signing segments as a joke a la Hornswoggle/Torito. That kind of stuff can make the fans care more about the lower card guys. these guys have matches like that on Superstars. Except for the lower card face vs face match.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 28, 2014 19:35:08 GMT -5
I just don't see it happening that way. Especially not with, as you've described, "a senile old carny" like Vince in charge. Zack doesn't need to just randomly hit his spots on little skinny twigs who look barely out of high school. Lowercard guys could be pushed NOW, but WWE just refuses to. I'd rather watch Zack and Heath Slater getting to put on a 10 minute clinic where both guys look good no matter who wins. I want to watch Zack have a competitive loss against an upper midcard guy like Miz. I want to see Zack and Alex Riley have a face vs. face comedy feud that the commentators try to sell as being "epic" by throwing in video packages and contract signing segments as a joke a la Hornswoggle/Torito. That kind of stuff can make the fans care more about the lower card guys. these guys have matches like that on Superstars. Except for the lower card face vs face match. But Superstars only has two of those matches now ever since RAW moved to three hours. Some of those matches need to happen on RAW and at least SmackDown as well. You barely see low carders on Main Event anymore now ever since WWE started using it as a selling point for the network. There needs to be more screen time for these lower tier wrestlers, jobbers or no jobbers. The fanbase needs to be made to care about those talents. No wrestler should ever be made to be worthless.
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Post by blackmegaman on Aug 28, 2014 19:55:44 GMT -5
I wonder back in the mid 90s when WCW/WWF started to phase away the traditional jobber matches and started having more "Marquee" matches on TV did they know the Pandora's Box they were opening ?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 20:16:14 GMT -5
I wonder back in the mid 90s when WCW/WWF started to phase away the traditional jobber matches and started having more "Marquee" matches on TV did they know the Pandora's Box they were opening ? fans had been content with mostly non-competitive matches for years and years by that point. I think they would have been surprised by how quickly fans got sick of "marquee" matches
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 28, 2014 20:29:54 GMT -5
Lower card guys could be pushed. If jobbers were brought in, a guy like Zack Ryder could get some wins, actually pleasing his fans for a change instead of watching him get obliterated constantly. I just don't see it happening that way. Especially not with, as you've described, "a senile old carny" like Vince in charge. Zack doesn't need to just randomly hit his spots on little skinny twigs who look barely out of high school. Lowercard guys could be pushed NOW, but WWE just refuses to. I'd rather watch Zack and Heath Slater getting to put on a 10 minute clinic where both guys look good no matter who wins. I want to watch Zack have a competitive loss against an upper midcard guy like Miz. I want to see Zack and Alex Riley have a face vs. face comedy feud that the commentators try to sell as being "epic" by throwing in video packages and contract signing segments as a joke a la Hornswoggle/Torito. That kind of stuff can make the fans care more about the lower card guys. Who says jobbers have to be little skinny twigs? In the pre-Attitude Era days, you had huge jobbers like Iron Mike Sharpe and Black Bart. There's only so many times you can have Zack/Miz/Heath and others like them in a combination before you've exhausted every possible variation. Same goes for the rest of the roster. That's why jobbers are essential, because they keep the "names" away from each other.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 28, 2014 20:36:45 GMT -5
I just don't see it happening that way. Especially not with, as you've described, "a senile old carny" like Vince in charge. Zack doesn't need to just randomly hit his spots on little skinny twigs who look barely out of high school. Lowercard guys could be pushed NOW, but WWE just refuses to. I'd rather watch Zack and Heath Slater getting to put on a 10 minute clinic where both guys look good no matter who wins. I want to watch Zack have a competitive loss against an upper midcard guy like Miz. I want to see Zack and Alex Riley have a face vs. face comedy feud that the commentators try to sell as being "epic" by throwing in video packages and contract signing segments as a joke a la Hornswoggle/Torito. That kind of stuff can make the fans care more about the lower card guys. Who says jobbers have to be little skinny twigs? In the pre-Attitude Era days, you had huge jobbers like Iron Mike Sharpe and Black Bart. There's only so many times you can have Zack/Miz/Heath and others like them in a combination before you've exhausted every possible variation. Same goes for the rest of the roster. That's why jobbers are essential, because they keep the "names" away from each other. I think most people these days think jobbers and they think guys like Duane Gill and Barry Hardy. A lot of the early to mid 90's jobbers were small.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Aug 28, 2014 20:39:13 GMT -5
Yes It's utterly essential No jobbers is another useless legacy of the Attitude Era that is now detrimental to the product. Some of the old territory shows never had jobber squashes. At least in the way the WWF did.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 28, 2014 20:48:30 GMT -5
I just don't see it happening that way. Especially not with, as you've described, "a senile old carny" like Vince in charge. Zack doesn't need to just randomly hit his spots on little skinny twigs who look barely out of high school. Lowercard guys could be pushed NOW, but WWE just refuses to. I'd rather watch Zack and Heath Slater getting to put on a 10 minute clinic where both guys look good no matter who wins. I want to watch Zack have a competitive loss against an upper midcard guy like Miz. I want to see Zack and Alex Riley have a face vs. face comedy feud that the commentators try to sell as being "epic" by throwing in video packages and contract signing segments as a joke a la Hornswoggle/Torito. That kind of stuff can make the fans care more about the lower card guys. Who says jobbers have to be little skinny twigs? In the pre-Attitude Era days, you had huge jobbers like Iron Mike Sharpe and Black Bart. There's only so many times you can have Zack/Miz/Heath and others like them in a combination before you've exhausted every possible variation. Same goes for the rest of the roster. That's why jobbers are essential, because they keep the "names" away from each other. That's pretty much what most people mean when they talk about "bringing back jobbers". Going back to the practice of using outside performers brought in from local indy feds, who basically get squashed by name talents. Yes, there were guys like Iron Mike Sharpe, Black Bart, Barry Horowitz, Steve Lombardi, etc. that the company had on hand, but that is the role that the current lower card main roster talent (and certain NXT workers like Angelo Dawkins) fill right now. They're familiar faces to the fans, they have established gimmicks/personas, but they lose more often than not. Guys like Zack, Heath, Titus, or Fandango don't need to be kept away from each other. It's only the guys higher up the card who need to be kept apart on free TV until the bigger shows. The lower card guys fight each other to build themselves up and keep apart the "marquee" performers who are feuding (i.e. Miz and Ziggler)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 21:03:01 GMT -5
That honestly IS what will happen. Lower card guys will never get TV time because the local Indy jobbers will take their spots. Why bother flying Zack Ryder out to random city when some 165 lb twink from 3LW or SWV or whatever in town will do it for $400 and a used McDonalds gift card worth $4.17? Jobbers will make the lower end of the roster even more expendable than WWE already sees them as. Lower card guys could be pushed. If jobbers were brought in, a guy like Zack Ryder could get some wins, actually pleasing his fans for a change instead of watching him get obliterated constantly. You think bringing in Jimmy Dildo to job means Zack Ryder will get the TV time and jobber victory? No, it will go to the same people who beat Ryder and Sandow instead. The lower card guys will still not be seen on TV. For jobbers to help lower card guys, you still have to fix the problem of constant re-caps and too much time for main eventers and if you fix that problem, the jobbers likely wouldn't be needed anyway as the lower card guys would have competitive matches with each other on TV already.
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Aug 29, 2014 0:02:49 GMT -5
Woah you guys totally misinterpreted this thread.
I meant I wanted jobber matches back not shows with 90% jobber matches or to have guys like Miz/Ziggler beating jobbers. The jobbers would be on Smackdown/Main Event/Superstars where lowercard guys and new talents would beat them just to get fans familiar with their movesets. Meanwhile you'll get the random jobber match on RAW where someone like Rusev or Bo beating jobbers to further their characters without sacrificing a lowcarder.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 29, 2014 0:16:32 GMT -5
Woah you guys totally misinterpreted this thread. I meant I wanted jobber matches back not shows with 90% jobber matches or to have guys like Miz/Ziggler beating jobbers. The jobbers would be on Smackdown/Main Event/Superstars where lowercard guys and new talents would beat them just to get fans familiar with their movesets. Meanwhile you'll get the random jobber match on RAW where someone like Rusev or Bo beating jobbers to further their characters without sacrificing a lowcarder. Rusev makes sense, but Bo isn't really the type of character who should be having those types matches. "Regular" guys doing squash matches just doesn't feel right. Guys like Bo (someone who's over and entertaining, but their character doesn't really depend on being "credible" or a "serious threat") should be helping to re-establish the lower card by having actual programs with them. He should actually be a guy who gets beaten up by low carders only to luck his way to a win. That way fans get familiar with the lower level guys' movesets while Bo still gets the W's and the over the top celebrations to further his character. Jobbers being brought in to put over the lower card guys doesn't really make a difference when those low carders are still treated as non entities otherwise. WWE can have Zack Ryder beat Barry Stevens and Stan Stansky for a whole year, but it means nothing if the moment he goes against someone "relevant" he gets beaten down in 45 seconds.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 29, 2014 0:20:03 GMT -5
I think 1 jobber squash a week would be fine. Any more and it'd just make Raw even more boring than it is.
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Post by Nic Nemeth on Aug 29, 2014 0:22:35 GMT -5
Woah you guys totally misinterpreted this thread. I meant I wanted jobber matches back not shows with 90% jobber matches or to have guys like Miz/Ziggler beating jobbers. The jobbers would be on Smackdown/Main Event/Superstars where lowercard guys and new talents would beat them just to get fans familiar with their movesets. Meanwhile you'll get the random jobber match on RAW where someone like Rusev or Bo beating jobbers to further their characters without sacrificing a lowcarder. Rusev makes sense, but Bo isn't really the type of character who should be having those types matches. "Regular" guys doing squash matches just doesn't feel right. Guys like Bo (someone who's over and entertaining, but their character doesn't really depend on being "credible" or a "serious threat") should be helping to re-establish the lower card by having actual programs with them. He should actually be a guy who gets beaten up by low carders only to luck his way to a win. That way fans get familiar with the lower level guys' movesets while Bo still gets the W's and the over the top celebrations to further his character. Don't tell me you wouldn't mark if Bo Dallas beat up 150 pound Lawrence Rogers and then celebrated like he won a gold medal.
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Post by RI Richmark on Aug 29, 2014 1:01:54 GMT -5
I say just designate certain people to be official jobbers that you know you won't push and don't need credibility. An example list might be Kofi, Big E, R Truth, Mark Henry, and Xavier Woods. This shouldn't cause any problems. New Nation J.O.B. Squad!
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Post by slaughterama on Aug 29, 2014 2:34:19 GMT -5
I don't know about bringing in indy nobodies to come in and job, but why not bring in guys to job that had worked for the company previously when they're in the area? At least people who know who they are. Guys like Masters, Brodus, Zeke, Gallows, Knox, Thorne, Boogeyman, Cryme Tyme, Highlanders, Murdoch, Val Venis, Snitsky, etc. I'm sure a quick payday and a few minutes on TV wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Aug 29, 2014 3:25:41 GMT -5
I don't know about bringing in indy nobodies to come in and job, but why not bring in guys to job that had worked for the company previously when they're in the area? At least people who know who they are. Guys like Masters, Brodus, Zeke, Gallows, Knox, Thorne, Boogeyman, Cryme Tyme, Highlanders, Murdoch, Val Venis, Snitsky, etc. I'm sure a quick payday and a few minutes on TV wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. This honestly is a great idea. But there are just two issues staring me in the face that make me a bit unwary - While someone obviously older like Val Venis or Boogeyman is great for the sporadic one off comeback, the younger workers might end up setting the fans up for disappointment. They see someone like Masters, Brodus, Sydal/Bourne, Ted Jr, Morrison, Carlito, etc. have a match and then get excited expecting them to be back full time only to be disappointed when they don't come back the following week.
- It might send the wrong message to the locker room. Even if these former employees are coming in just to put guys over, it sends the message that the company values you more as a free agent than they do when you're under contract. "WWE Superstar JTG" ain't worth jack shit, but "FORMER WWE Superstar JTG" actually gets to be booked in matches AND get a pop as a returning hero. The boys in the back might take that as the company saying, "Any currently employed WWE Superstar is a loser. Any wrestler worth their salt would just quit and wait for us to call them back when we need them."
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 29, 2014 10:42:11 GMT -5
Yes It's utterly essential No jobbers is another useless legacy of the Attitude Era that is now detrimental to the product. Some of the old territory shows never had jobber squashes. At least in the way the WWF did. They also didn't have PPV's every month. WWE does, and if they want to maintain a freshness to them, they cannot have the same people who will face each other at a PPV interacting every week on RAW. Who says jobbers have to be little skinny twigs? In the pre-Attitude Era days, you had huge jobbers like Iron Mike Sharpe and Black Bart. There's only so many times you can have Zack/Miz/Heath and others like them in a combination before you've exhausted every possible variation. Same goes for the rest of the roster. That's why jobbers are essential, because they keep the "names" away from each other. That's pretty much what most people mean when they talk about "bringing back jobbers". Going back to the practice of using outside performers brought in from local indy feds, who basically get squashed by name talents. Yes, there were guys like Iron Mike Sharpe, Black Bart, Barry Horowitz, Steve Lombardi, etc. that the company had on hand, but that is the role that the current lower card main roster talent (and certain NXT workers like Angelo Dawkins) fill right now. They're familiar faces to the fans, they have established gimmicks/personas, but they lose more often than not. Guys like Zack, Heath, Titus, or Fandango don't need to be kept away from each other. It's only the guys higher up the card who need to be kept apart on free TV until the bigger shows. The lower card guys fight each other to build themselves up and keep apart the "marquee" performers who are feuding (i.e. Miz and Ziggler) Jobbers can be a mix of small and large, and jobbers to the stars can occasionally face each other on Superstars. But there's only a certain amount of times you can see Zack vs Heath before that too gets stale. Lower card guys could be pushed. If jobbers were brought in, a guy like Zack Ryder could get some wins, actually pleasing his fans for a change instead of watching him get obliterated constantly. You think bringing in Jimmy Dildo to job means Zack Ryder will get the TV time and jobber victory? No, it will go to the same people who beat Ryder and Sandow instead. The lower card guys will still not be seen on TV. For jobbers to help lower card guys, you still have to fix the problem of constant re-caps and too much time for main eventers and if you fix that problem, the jobbers likely wouldn't be needed anyway as the lower card guys would have competitive matches with each other on TV already. If WWE insists on having Zack job to Jimmy Dildo, then at that point, Zack should consider his status with the company, because someone in WWE clearly hates him. But yes I agree, other structural problems with WWE also have to be addressed.
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Post by slaughterama on Aug 29, 2014 16:46:58 GMT -5
I don't know about bringing in indy nobodies to come in and job, but why not bring in guys to job that had worked for the company previously when they're in the area? At least people who know who they are. Guys like Masters, Brodus, Zeke, Gallows, Knox, Thorne, Boogeyman, Cryme Tyme, Highlanders, Murdoch, Val Venis, Snitsky, etc. I'm sure a quick payday and a few minutes on TV wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. This honestly is a great idea. But there are just two issues staring me in the face that make me a bit unwary - While someone obviously older like Val Venis or Boogeyman is great for the sporadic one off comeback, the younger workers might end up setting the fans up for disappointment. They see someone like Masters, Brodus, Sydal/Bourne, Ted Jr, Morrison, Carlito, etc. have a match and then get excited expecting them to be back full time only to be disappointed when they don't come back the following week.
- It might send the wrong message to the locker room. Even if these former employees are coming in just to put guys over, it sends the message that the company values you more as a free agent than they do when you're under contract. "WWE Superstar JTG" ain't worth jack shit, but "FORMER WWE Superstar JTG" actually gets to be booked in matches AND get a pop as a returning hero. The boys in the back might take that as the company saying, "Any currently employed WWE Superstar is a loser. Any wrestler worth their salt would just quit and wait for us to call them back when we need them."
I guess it would depend on the level of guy coming back. Obviously someone like Carlito can probably still do very well for himself wrestling in WWC, but I'd be curious to hear a guy like JTG's take on it. Which is a better position to be in. Not being used by WWE, but having a guaranteed paycheck at least coming in? Or being able to wrestle, but having to go through the rigors of booking your own dates (or paying someone a cut to do it for you) and heading to a venue where you may have no idea what to expect? And also, factor in potential injuries. Better getting hurt under WWE's umbrella, than at some local show. I'd like to hear the other side's take on it as well. Would Ryder or Gabriel prefer their current role of being rarely used, but still being employed? Getting squashed every week on TV, but still being employed? Or being released and go on their own way, and maybe showing up once or twice a year to job on TV? Interesting scenario, and I bet you'd probably get different answers from each guy you asked.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Aug 29, 2014 21:15:33 GMT -5
Remember the old Jobber To The Stars? There is nothing wrong with Kofi, Sandow, et al. filling this role. Enhancement Talent to the Stars: "ETTTS".
Despite what The E wants us to believe, not everyone can be a Superstar. I'm all for jobbers. Hell, if the guy who does everyone's signature is still offering, I want mine to be "Team Enhancement Talent".
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