Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 1, 2014 15:34:21 GMT -5
I'm confused by this. Dentists and doctors get paid really, really well. They go to school for 8 years to do it, and it's a lot more vital than entertainment. Is his point that black dentists don't get paid as much? Or that dentists get paid too much? Or that there's no black dentists? He's saying that generally a black dentist or whatever would have to excel whereas a white one could be merely good when it comes to living in the same neighborhoods. It's sorta why, kinda, the Cosby show was a big deal in portrayals of families in that they weren't low income or live in a bad neighborhood--Cliff was a dr and Claire was a lawyer. Back then, you didn't really see much of that. Even say the Jeffersons, they'd 'made' it; and a lot of the stories was them reacting to a society that saw them as "different". For the most part, the Huxtables weren't. I honestly don't think Bill gets enough credit for having a 'black' show that put across a 'normal' family where race was secondary. I think something like Cosby show changed a lot of people's perceptions, even if only subtly. It was definitely a huge deal. I think a lot of people forget that while a lot of us may have been too young to really appreciate it for what it was at the time, it was a big hit, and beyond that, Bill Cosby was HUGE. Cosby Show, and to an extent Family Matters, make me wonder sometimes why there is the perception that white people have to have representation on a main cast to watch a series and for it to be successful. Then again, TV isn't often known for taking huge chances, so it's possible they just kind of see stuff like UPN's languishing and come to the conclusion that it was because of the demographics, not that the shows mostly sucked.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Sept 1, 2014 15:36:02 GMT -5
I kept telling myself I wouldn't jump in this thread but I feel the need to pop in and agree 100% with this. It's why I'm always baffled when people question why there isn't a White History month. It's like, "brah, EVERY month is white history month." I do have to admit that as a non-white person, I feel sorry for white people because they are unable to truly express "pride for their heritage" the way that we do. I think that's where the "We should have a WET/White History Month" comes from. We get to be "black and proud of it", and they don't, even with all the privileges they've had. White people haven't had the need to. They're celebrated enough.
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Jeff Mangum PI
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Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Sept 1, 2014 15:37:48 GMT -5
He's saying that generally a black dentist or whatever would have to excel whereas a white one could be merely good when it comes to living in the same neighborhoods. It's sorta why, kinda, the Cosby show was a big deal in portrayals of families in that they weren't low income or live in a bad neighborhood--Cliff was a dr and Claire was a lawyer. Back then, you didn't really see much of that. Even say the Jeffersons, they'd 'made' it; and a lot of the stories was them reacting to a society that saw them as "different". For the most part, the Huxtables weren't. I honestly don't think Bill gets enough credit for having a 'black' show that put across a 'normal' family where race was secondary. I think something like Cosby show changed a lot of people's perceptions, even if only subtly. It was definitely a huge deal. I think a lot of people forget that while a lot of us may have been too young to really appreciate it for what it was at the time, it was a big hit, and beyond that, Bill Cosby was HUGE. Cosby Show, and to an extent Family Matters, make me wonder sometimes why there is the perception that white people have to have representation on a main cast to watch a series and for it to be successful. Then again, TV isn't often known for taking huge chances, so it's possible they just kind of see stuff like UPN's languishing and come to the conclusion that it was because of the demographics, not that the shows mostly sucked. Growing up I always just saw UPN as the SmackDown and My Wife & Kids network.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 1, 2014 15:40:45 GMT -5
It was definitely a huge deal. I think a lot of people forget that while a lot of us may have been too young to really appreciate it for what it was at the time, it was a big hit, and beyond that, Bill Cosby was HUGE. Cosby Show, and to an extent Family Matters, make me wonder sometimes why there is the perception that white people have to have representation on a main cast to watch a series and for it to be successful. Then again, TV isn't often known for taking huge chances, so it's possible they just kind of see stuff like UPN's languishing and come to the conclusion that it was because of the demographics, not that the shows mostly sucked. Growing up I always just saw UPN as the SmackDown and My Wife & Kids network. Going by their ratings, you weren't alone in that. Reminds me of when Damon Wayons I believe was pissed at Fox for putting Bernie Mac Show on at the same night, and that it was kind of f***ed up that they had to compete when they could have pitted him against any given white show. I don't really know if it was intentional on their part, but I can see where that'd be a pain in the ass.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 15:41:46 GMT -5
I'm confused by this. Dentists and doctors get paid really, really well. They go to school for 8 years to do it, and it's a lot more vital than entertainment. Is his point that black dentists don't get paid as much? Or that dentists get paid too much? Or that there's no black dentists? I think his point is that black people have to be "god tier" to live in the same neighborhood as "normal" white people. Yeah I get that he's saying that. But I don't get his reasoning. He's got an observation that he, Mary J., Eddie Murphy, and Jay-Z live in a neighborhood full of, I guess, "average" white people? A quick search, so forgive if it's not deadly accurate, says the average dentists salary is $163k a year. In that case, I want to be average so, so hard. I don't have any experience with making 6 figures and owning a multimillion dollar home, is that salary enough to pay for that expensive of a house? If there was a black dentist that was making good money, he could live in that neighborhood. Unless, like I said, he's making a point that black people either don't partake in said profession or don't get paid as well. Or maybe it's that the white people are born into money, so they've got a ton stacked away PLUS what they make in their profession. I'm not trying to claim reverse racism! or anything dumb. Chris Rock can be great and has excellent delivery, but I think that delivery lets him get by with some sort of bullshit material sometimes. His take on Columbine, for example, was ridiculously stupid. So I was just sort of breaking down what he said, because I didn't feel like his example was any proof of his claim, just an observation that 4 black entertainers live in a white neighborhood and one of them happens to be a dentist.
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Post by Michael Coello on Sept 1, 2014 15:44:30 GMT -5
Even then, in 83, you still had A Team, Jeffersons, Benson, Soul Train, CHiPs, Fat Albert, not to mention this was the year of Thriller and Michael Jackson. The heck does Thriller and Michael Jackson have anything to do with it? Your examples are literally the only examples, and even they paint a worse picture for how things were. SIX shows vs the entire rest of network and cable television. Even if they were on the same network, that's only three out of 168 hours, meaning you had a (mostly white-written) black representation for exactly 0.02% of a broadcast week. I think it's cause your painting multiple nationalities and cultures (British, German, Irish, Jewish, Spanish, etc) under a broad a stroke as possible to make it look worse, and by proxxy acting like all of those people's own barriers don't exist or are paltry compared to someone else's.
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Post by "Gentleman" AJ Powell on Sept 1, 2014 15:45:57 GMT -5
...
f***ing honkies, right?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 1, 2014 15:46:38 GMT -5
It was definitely a huge deal. I think a lot of people forget that while a lot of us may have been too young to really appreciate it for what it was at the time, it was a big hit, and beyond that, Bill Cosby was HUGE. Cosby Show, and to an extent Family Matters, make me wonder sometimes why there is the perception that white people have to have representation on a main cast to watch a series and for it to be successful. Then again, TV isn't often known for taking huge chances, so it's possible they just kind of see stuff like UPN's languishing and come to the conclusion that it was because of the demographics, not that the shows mostly sucked. Growing up I always just saw UPN as the SmackDown and My Wife & Kids network. I didn't see the 'and' between Smackdown and My at first, and I was wondering what show I was unaware of, haha.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 1, 2014 15:47:14 GMT -5
... f***ing honkies, right? It totally looks like Bo is saying that, perhaps while trying to sing some Marvin Gaye.
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Post by Hawk Hart on Sept 1, 2014 15:49:44 GMT -5
I do have to admit that as a non-white person, I feel sorry for white people because they are unable to truly express "pride for their heritage" the way that we do. I think that's where the "We should have a WET/White History Month" comes from. We get to be "black and proud of it", and they don't, even with all the privileges they've had. White people haven't had the need to. They're celebrated enough. I dunno dude, don't you think we need to section off the block and get some Genesis pumpin' to celebrate the fact that it was mostly white people that did the horrible shit that gave us cause for Black History Month? Really, that's the thing that gets me the most. You know why we awareness days and months for different minorities? Because stupid people saw a different skin tone for the first time hundreds of years ago and decided they must have stumbled upon a new collective of people they considered sub-human and proceeded to treat them like shit until literally this very second. You can't be a white person and complain about black history month because it was white people complaining about black people that got it started in the first place. Long story short, if we all just started acting like people are people with the same f***ing emotions and rights as we all feel we deserve as an individual then shit would go smoother. We ain't different folks, we may look different and talk different but we're all people, we all have feelings, and we all deserve a basic level of human respect and decency. There's a reason why most of my friends growing up were black, because I when I hit the age where you start to develop your tastes I started "trending black" as they call it. What's that mean? It means I like stuff like jazz music, hip hop, I'd rather see the Nicholas Brothers dance than Al Jolson in black face, I'd rather hear soul music from Stax records than current pop, it means I didn't buy into the early attempts of cultural indoctrination that tells me Elvis Presley was a disgrace because he sang in a style that he grew up with. Why? Because it's a "black" style. You know what "black" was code for back then? "Poor". That's the kind of music my white grandmother grew up listening to in the 1950s when she, her parents, and her brothers weren't in the cotton fields. So I when I started liking the stuff that the media and racists have stigmatized as being for blacks only what happened? The white kids started calling me "N***** lover" and assorted other slurs. It's time we stopped assigning art forms to races and stigmatizing people for liking what they like.
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Post by Red Impact on Sept 1, 2014 15:51:00 GMT -5
That's now, chazraps is talking about when BET was first created. Even then, in 83, you still had A Team, Jeffersons, Benson, Soul Train, CHiPs, Fat Albert, not to mention this was the year of Thriller and Michael Jackson. BET wasn't created for Thriller though, it was created to be a television network for Ebony magazine. It showed hip hop and genres of music that weren't being presented on MTV, and originally featured social programs that weren't being presented elsewhere. It was targeting a culture that was largely underrepresented in the tv landscape. And really, the criticism of the "White Entertainment Television" argument is that such a network would consist of shows that already are on TV, and have been since it's inception, whereas BET, at least in it's inception and still through today to an extent, features programming blocks that didn't exist. There doesn't need to be one, because there's never been any shortage of programs that was centered around that audience. Yes, black people were on TV, no one is saying they weren't, but shows where the main characters weren't white haven't always had a block on TBS, and a couple shows here and there doesn't exactly do much to hit every segment of the population.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 1, 2014 15:51:45 GMT -5
Can we have some Huey Lewis along with our Genesis?
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Post by Glitch on Sept 1, 2014 15:52:35 GMT -5
This also reminds how criticism of a joke that uses racism is met with "stop being so pc,bro!" But if you make fun of racism itself, all of a sudden you're being unfair to certain groups. The irony.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 1, 2014 15:53:51 GMT -5
And let's be real, the VAST majority of American white people (myself included) don't identify with ancestral culture at all. Like, sure my great great great whatevers came from Ireland, Germany, Scotland; but I'm American. 'Murica. There is no dismissal of various white cultures given that most of us don't even really embrace em in the first place.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 1, 2014 15:54:19 GMT -5
... f***ing honkies, right? It totally looks like Bo is saying that, perhaps while trying to sing some Marvin Gaye. I picture it more like a standup routine. The follow up will be "Bolievers walk like this, and non-Bolievers walk a little more like this!"
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Jeff Mangum PI
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Post by Jeff Mangum PI on Sept 1, 2014 15:55:13 GMT -5
Can we have some Huey Lewis along with our Genesis? Eh, their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes but when Sports came out in 1983 I think they really came into their own, commercially and artistically.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Sept 1, 2014 15:55:35 GMT -5
I kept telling myself I wouldn't jump in this thread but I feel the need to pop in and agree 100% with this. It's why I'm always baffled when people question why there isn't a White History month. It's like, "brah, EVERY month is white history month." I do have to admit that as a non-white person, I feel sorry for white people because they are unable to truly express "pride for their heritage" the way that we do. I think that's where the "We should have a WET/White History Month" comes from. We get to be "black and proud of it", and they don't, even with all the privileges they've had. The problem is that whiteness is a social construct. This is not something basic education in America teaches us (though it should) but it is historically true. There's no historical consistency to whiteness. The Irish were once considered nonwhite in America, now they are considered white. Whiteness isn't even defined the same in every white majority country today! Whiteness as a social construct has no common experience except oppressing nonwhites, that's the entire purpose of its existence. I have no cultural pride or heritage in my whiteness because there's nothing to be proud of. There's nothing wrong with a white person being proud of their ethnic heritage. Slavs can be proud of being slav, Irish can be proud of being Irish, ect. And hell Americans can totally be proud of American cultural heritage if they want. Be proud of Rock and Roll or Southern Gothic or whatever else you see as American culture. There's nothing wrong with any of that, but when you understand sociology enough to see whiteness's entire existence is as a oppressive social construct, and the non-white races as the oppressed groups that suffer from it the idea of "pride in whiteness" becomes pointless. And "black pride" (or Latino pride/asian Pride ect) are different because they exist as a response to that oppression. I'm going to compare it to a post I see circled around a lot about the "Straight Pride Parade" idea, which is the response to that idea should be "be happy you dont NEED a straight pride parade". The same idea can be applied to White History Month, White Entertainment Television, White-Only Scholarships and so on. The response to seeing things specifically created for oppressed groups shouldn't be "I'm angry that there's one thing out there thats not for me and I want an equivalent" it should be "I'm happy I don't need that, everything else is already for me"*. Basically its all a false equivalency based on the realities of our culture. *Sadly one huge part of privilege is the privilege of not seeing your own privilege, which is why this tends to happen. "Black History Month" seems like inequality to the uncritical or unaware white mind because they don't see the existing inequality that "Black History Month" is meant to help equalize. You're very sweet to try to be so empathetic and I think its coming from a good place and that it says good things about you as a person, but there's nothing to feel sorry for in this case.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 1, 2014 15:55:28 GMT -5
It totally looks like Bo is saying that, perhaps while trying to sing some Marvin Gaye. I picture it more like a standup routine. The follow up will be "Bolievers walk like this, and non-Bolievers walk a little more like this!" Ryback: "It's funny cuz it's true!"
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Sept 1, 2014 15:55:45 GMT -5
The heck does Thriller and Michael Jackson have anything to do with it? Your examples are literally the only examples, and even they paint a worse picture for how things were. SIX shows vs the entire rest of network and cable television. Even if they were on the same network, that's only three out of 168 hours, meaning you had a (mostly white-written) black representation for exactly 0.02% of a broadcast week. I think it's cause your painting multiple nationalities and cultures (British, German, Irish, Jewish, Spanish, etc) under a broad a stroke as possible to make it look worse, and by proxxy acting like all of those people's own barriers don't exist or are paltry compared to someone else's. Ok but what does any of that have to do with the issues blacks faced during that time period? You are avoiding the core issue at hand. Black people have not always been on equal standing with whites in popular media. Quit ducking the issue with these silly, paper-thin examples.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 1, 2014 15:56:11 GMT -5
Can we have some Huey Lewis along with our Genesis? Eh, their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes but when Sports came out in 1983 I think they really came into their own, commercially and artistically. You know what, you can have my invitation to Dorzia. It's just not worth it.
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