Tony Schiavontay
Dennis Stamp
This is the greatest post in the history of this board!
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Post by Tony Schiavontay on Nov 21, 2014 18:30:42 GMT -5
I honestly don't care. It's just a prop. I don't understand this line of thinking. It's the object that the entire narrative is built around - if you don't see it as having meaning then what's the point of watching? Ric Flair is an embarrassment who's done everything he can to destroy his legacy. I don't care about John Cena, especially when he's champion. So that's basically where I'm at. And to be fair, I haven't been watching for months now.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
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Post by BRV on Nov 21, 2014 18:30:52 GMT -5
Because so many of his title "reigns" have been hollow and pointless. Just shuffling the belt around like a hot potato with little rhyme or reason.
I've always felt that 50 days is the minimum amount of days for a title reign to matter. After 50 days, you've essentially held it for two months and in today's WWE (Brock Lesnar notwithstanding) that means you've successfully defended it at least during two pay-per-views.
Eight of John Cena's world championship reigns lasted 49 days or fewer. Four lasted less than 21 days. Conversely, of Ric Flair's 16 world championship reigns, five didn't crack 50 days.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 21, 2014 18:33:16 GMT -5
I honestly don't care. It's just a prop. I don't understand this line of thinking. It's the object that the entire narrative is built around - if you don't see it as having meaning then what's the point of watching? It's got plenty of meaning, but the meaning's all within the show narrative. They're a reflection of what crowds and promoters decide. To me the WWE Title means about as much as Marsellus Wallace's briefcase, or any fictional totem. Great thing to get excited about while watching the show, but not something one would fret about day-to-day.
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 21, 2014 18:33:49 GMT -5
I decided ages ago, that because titles are so meaningless these days, Cena will always be a 1-time WWE Champion, and will never move from that total.
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Post by PsychoGoatee on Nov 21, 2014 18:53:28 GMT -5
For me, the Flair thing in particular isn't why Cena shouldn't do it. It's more just that at this point it seems Cena has just had enough title reigns. Recently he's gotten it to pass the torch to Bryan, he's gotten it to pass it on to Lesnar who will give an epic rub to somebody who beats him, like Reigns or whoever.
At this point, especially with the unified title and so many rising stars right now, or at least a few key ones who haven't had the belt, Cena just doesn't need the belt anymore. Kind of like how HBK didn't need the belt for most of the latter part of his career.
Also in general, I think the way they emphasize how many times you've had the belt over how long or memorable those runs are is an odd thing. Losing the belt five times in a year is better than holding the belt for a year by that measure for example, which is a bit nutty.
Anyhoo, I think Cena as the champ should be done at this point.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Nov 21, 2014 18:58:17 GMT -5
It's not as if Flair didn't have any stupid reigns. He had TWO reigns in May of 2000 alone and didn't even end May as the champion.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 19:00:33 GMT -5
Because so many of his title "reigns" have been hollow and pointless. Just shuffling the belt around like a hot potato with little rhyme or reason. I've always felt that 50 days is the minimum amount of days for a title reign to matter. After 50 days, you've essentially held it for two months and in today's WWE (Brock Lesnar notwithstanding) that means you've successfully defended it at least during two pay-per-views. Eight of John Cena's world championship reigns lasted 49 days or fewer. Four lasted less than 21 days. Conversely, of Ric Flair's 16 world championship reigns, five didn't crack 50 days. Flair's total is inflated for a different reason. Throughout the 80s he'd lose the NWA title (usually outside of his home territory), only to win it back in the rematch a few days/weeks later. He was the champion something like 90% of the time between 1983 until he jumped to WWF. Nobody gets that much of a stranglehold on the title these days, even when there were two world titles.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Nov 21, 2014 20:37:14 GMT -5
He's too young still. I mean, he was too young for the last 10 or so title wins but still. It's less meaningful, honestly.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 21, 2014 21:20:09 GMT -5
As for the "titles are props", they are just like any other Maguffin. If they don't have a meaning to the viewer, then the quest for, defense of, or desire over said Maguffin can't exist. If the title is a "prop", then matches mean nothing, and there's zero reason to get emotionally invested in a character, match, show, and so on.
As to the whole Cena/ Flair title runs bit, I see it this way. Flair is now seen as a trainwreck because, well, his life that was once sheltered by kayfabe has now been revealed to be less than "stylin' and profilin'". Cena, to be frank, is the benefactor of the new kayfabe. By the company insisting that he, and he alone, is the only "non character" and the only "real guy", the kayfabe of "Uber boyscout" rather than "Dude who goes out and has beers with the boys, sings bad country karaoke, and yes dodged what was potentially a very nasty divorce with his wife" is in full effect. Not that Cena is a trainwreck, but there IS a kayfabe around the man, just as there was with Flair and Hogan and Bruno and Austin and so on.
Thing is, as they pump the title runs out, just as they did with Trips, it seems to be a sprint to get their desired "guy" past and above Flair, so that it's another bragging point to hammer on those who dont' buy or bad mouth the narrative being presented.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Nov 21, 2014 22:09:22 GMT -5
I just wish so many guys didn't have over 10 World Title reigns.
I mean, with Ric it was a bit ridiculous anyway, but at least he held them in multiple promotions. I was watching Survivor Series 95 on the Network, and it talked about how Bret Hart was the only wrestler to hold the WWF, IC and Tag Titles twice (three times with the tag titles) and how much of a big deal that was. I remember it being a big deal that Razor Ramon was a 4 time Intercontinental Champion, and that title had been around for less then 20 years at that point. I know it's because there's more tv even in the late 90s, but it's ridiculous how many title reigns people have had.
The two World Titles over the past decade or so made it worse. Not only did we get bijillion time champions, but we had Jack Swagger and Great Khali as World Champion. Hell, Dolph Ziggler's great, but the way he's presented now, he shouldn't be thought of as a 2 time World Champion.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Nov 21, 2014 22:57:54 GMT -5
Because Ric Flair holding the record was the person who was the standard of excellence when I was a little kid, and John Cena breaking his record is yet more proof that time marches on, records are made to eventually be broken by a younger generation and no one remembers the previous record holder as anything more than number two, at best- and from that fact of the person I grew up watching becoming unmemorable, I'm growing old, and just like Ric Flair, one day I too will become old, pathetic, broken, and eventually die forgotten and unmourned.
See also: Why John Cena shouldn't be the new Hulk Hogan, why John Cena beating The Rock was bad for business.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
FAN Idol All-Star: FAN Idol Season X and *Gavel* 2x Judges' Throwdown winner
Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on Nov 21, 2014 23:30:18 GMT -5
because flair was the Hogan of the NWA. Without the title record, he doesn't really have anything of his own
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Post by Hit Girl on Nov 22, 2014 1:21:17 GMT -5
I think Flair had to give all his title reigns to his creditors
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 2:00:03 GMT -5
Because, from a business standpoint, if he wins it now, they're throwing away years worth of huge money matches based around trotting Cena out from time to time so he can try to break that record.
Basically the Streak in reverse.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Nov 22, 2014 2:19:27 GMT -5
People were convinced for years that they were building HHH to be the one to overtake it and they didn't, so maybe they're reluctant to
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gr1990
Don Corleone
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Post by gr1990 on Nov 22, 2014 3:30:17 GMT -5
Not to be 'that guy,' but is there anything more meaningless than statistics in a fake sport? I can't fathom feeling any anger over this or the streak ending. All it takes is for a few people to make a few decisions and boom, it's happened. They could book Cena to win the title, lose it, regain it, lose it, and regain it again in the space of one show if they wanted and that would be that, record broken. Anyone who would use that stat in a debate as to who was the better performer between Cena and Flair would be an idiot anyway.
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schma
Hank Scorpio
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Post by schma on Nov 22, 2014 5:44:18 GMT -5
With HHH I thought they might be pushing for him to overtake Flair but I got the impression that HHH didn't because of their friendship and respect. As for the asterisk about two world champs, when Flair was winning World titles there were technically 2-3 world champions (they just weren't in the same company).
As for the record, I have a feeling it means a lot more to people of a certain age than the younger crowd. The younger crowd just know of Ric Flair as that old guy who shows up once in a while or that wreck from TNA or that wreck from news on the internet. The people who witnessed him in his prime or in his Monday night WCW era or even his final WWE run likely care a lot more about his record. (I know this is generalizing a bit). Personally I would like to see his achievement stand, especially considering it took him over two decades to accomplish.
One other aspect is that back in the day 16 or 17 world titles was mind blowing. To hear that number I honestly thought no one would ever get close to him. It was amazing enough when guys like the Rock or Austin racked up 5 world titles. Now with Orton, Egde, HHH and Cena in double digit world titles the idea that 16 is this incredible feat worthy of admiration had all but disappeared. Tell someone in the late 90s/early 00s that in less than 20 years a wrestler might surpass Flair's record and they'd probably think you were insane.
Admittedly, I think they need to cut back on guys having so many reigns. At this rate in 10-20 years people won't give a crap about someone until they've had at least 5 world titles.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 22, 2014 6:32:55 GMT -5
"He won more fake belts than some other dude? f*** THE WORLD!"
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Nov 22, 2014 6:34:20 GMT -5
I'm more annoyed at Edge's 11 World reigns rather than Cena potentially reaching 16. At least Cena has had a couple of meaningful reigns over the past ten years. Agree 100% with this. Edge won his first world title in 2006 and retired in 2011. ELEVEN WORLD TITLES IN FIVE YEARS. That's beyond ridiculous and a big reason why Edge felt so stale to me when he retired.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by The Ichi on Nov 22, 2014 9:16:36 GMT -5
I'm more annoyed at Edge's 11 World reigns rather than Cena potentially reaching 16. At least Cena has had a couple of meaningful reigns over the past ten years. Agree 100% with this. Edge won his first world title in 2006 and retired in 2011. ELEVEN WORLD TITLES IN FIVE YEARS. That's beyond ridiculous and a big reason why Edge felt so stale to me when he retired. In fairness though that was his character. Ultimate opportunist and all.
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