Mozenrath
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Posts: 121,045
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 11, 2014 9:39:53 GMT -5
I don't think there is really competition amongst any of the wrestling companies today. Fans watch who they want to watch, the companies aren't fighting over ratings with being on different days intentionally and different platforms (TV, VOD) so there is likely a fair amount of fan crossover. The only thing the companies would be a threat to another is over exclusivity of talent. I'd say competition over PPV to an extent, but with TNA eliminating the majority of their canon PPVs, and ROH having over years built up an audience of loyal fans watching on iPPV (is ROH on regular PPV in the States??), I'm not sure if competition is really there. They do some actual PPVs now, but the ippv has always been an issue for ROH. Let me ask another question in regards to the thread. If TNA ran their business as if they were closer to ROH's level rather than trying to run at WWE's level would people have moe respect for them? I think they'd certainly be less wasteful at times with their spending, and fans wouldn't have that to mock. People already knock them for being smalltime, so that wouldn't change much.
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Dec 11, 2014 10:08:44 GMT -5
If being the number two promotion in America is all about putting TNA out of business than the number two promotion is Dixie Carter's incompetence.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 11, 2014 10:12:30 GMT -5
Too much stock is put into having a national cable contract. That small indy that going to be used for "Wrestling with Death" is going to be on WGN America. Should we add them to the conversation because of that? Business wise right now, TNA and ROH are basically similar due to Sinclair or Panda are not pouring money into the company. The public perception is ROH is on the rise and TNA is circling the drain. ROH has a business model that TNA should have in place but don't. ROH could lose tv and still survive. TNA had to take a shit deal just to see another. Plus ROH doesn't have the stigma like TNA when it comes to career advancement.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 11, 2014 10:24:05 GMT -5
Tangentially related question: are there legitimate ways to watch these shows, TNA, ROH or Lucha Underground, online?
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Post by grunt on Dec 11, 2014 10:52:18 GMT -5
Destination America is available in more homes, but ROH is available on bigger stations where they are located. Dave Meltzer reckons that more people will watch ROH than TNA in 2015 (and bear in mind that Destination America only has one feed, so West Coast viewership will be low as it will air at 6pm on Fridays there). The only complication is that we never get ROH TV ratings, but the last I heard, they claim they average about a million a week combined throughout their markets. Except, you know, for the fact that that 2014 investors report from Sinclair clearly stated that in 2013, any given ROH episode was viewed by a total of 290000-300000 weekly viewers, across all stations, including reruns. We're far from that supposed 1m/week which has never been sourced and had King & Titus laughing their asses off in that shoot video.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 11:48:09 GMT -5
Tangentially related question: are there legitimate ways to watch these shows, TNA, ROH or Lucha Underground, online? Last I checked TNA and ROH episodes were being sold on Xbox Video, dunno if that's still the case.
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Post by The Trashman on Dec 11, 2014 11:52:10 GMT -5
I enjoy Lucha Underground way more than both
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 11, 2014 13:07:48 GMT -5
Let me ask another question in regards to the thread. If TNA ran their business as if they were closer to ROH's level rather than trying to run at WWE's level would people have moe respect for them? If they ran their business at the size they are, rather than the size they think they are, they'd be profitable but there'd be just as many detractors because the product is still trying to be 'sports entertainment' rather than professional wrestling. Honestly that's what I think TNA should be. They should be the "ROH of Sports Entertainment" and operate to the complete opposite extreme. ROH has its pure wrestling. TNA should have more gimmick characters. While WWE is the "variety show" that tries to mix the two.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 11, 2014 13:58:13 GMT -5
Too much stock is put into having a national cable contract. That small indy that going to be used for "Wrestling with Death" is going to be on WGN America. Should we add them to the conversation because of that? Business wise right now, TNA and ROH are basically similar due to Sinclair or Panda are not pouring money into the company. The public perception is ROH is on the rise and TNA is circling the drain. ROH has a business model that TNA should have in place but don't. ROH could lose tv and still survive. TNA had to take a shit deal just to see another. Plus ROH doesn't have the stigma like TNA when it comes to career advancement. Yeah, according to that backward mindset, TCW out of Arkansas has a bigger profile just by having a show Saturdays on Persuit TV. Simple fact is, ROH is avaloble in more homes than TNA despite not being "national" like TNA or TCW. Tangentially related question: are there legitimate ways to watch these shows, TNA, ROH or Lucha Underground, online? ROH puts their shows up on their website every Thursday I believe it is. Destination America is available in more homes, but ROH is available on bigger stations where they are located. Dave Meltzer reckons that more people will watch ROH than TNA in 2015 (and bear in mind that Destination America only has one feed, so West Coast viewership will be low as it will air at 6pm on Fridays there). The only complication is that we never get ROH TV ratings, but the last I heard, they claim they average about a million a week combined throughout their markets. Except, you know, for the fact that that 2014 investors report from Sinclair clearly stated that in 2013, any given ROH episode was viewed by a total of 290000-300000 weekly viewers, across all stations, including reruns. We're far from that supposed 1m/week which has never been sourced and had King & Titus laughing their asses off in that shoot video. Every time you say this I ask for proof and you don't deliever. So I'll take Meltzer over your unsourced comments.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 19:54:31 GMT -5
TNA's production is still miles ahead of ROH.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Dec 11, 2014 20:28:20 GMT -5
TNA's production is still miles ahead of ROH. And considering that they don't even pay their production staff, that's certainly saying something.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 11, 2014 21:12:40 GMT -5
Except, you know, for the fact that that 2014 investors report from Sinclair clearly stated that in 2013, any given ROH episode was viewed by a total of 290000-300000 weekly viewers, across all stations, including reruns. We're far from that supposed 1m/week which has never been sourced and had King & Titus laughing their asses off in that shoot video. Every time you say this I ask for proof and you don't deliever. So I'll take Meltzer over your unsourced comments. Seems to have come from Sinclair's own promotional material. If true, they're a long way off TNA level viewing figures and that's without taking in TNA's international audience into consideration.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 11, 2014 21:25:59 GMT -5
Every time you say this I ask for proof and you don't deliever. So I'll take Meltzer over your unsourced comments. Seems to have come from Sinclair's own promotional material. If true, they're a long way off TNA level viewing figures and that's without taking in TNA's international audience into consideration. Dying to get the actual report to read but it is killing my comp. Now let's say that is right and they are just over 300k, that isn't far off from what TNA will be lucky to get sorry to break it to ya. Again, international is all well and good to brag about but that won't keep anyone alive. The US is the what matters the most to these guys and will always be the measuring stick. TNA beats RAW in the UK but you think anyone actually believes TNA is bigger or more successful? Fact is no matter how you (in general) want to spin it, ROH is nipping at TNA's heels when it comes to TV viewers but unlike TNA can actually run shows that aren't TV tapings. ROH makes money or loses very little, they'd be killed off by SBC otherwise, while TNA has limped along for over a year now hoping for their next hit of cash just so they can tape a few more TV spots and start the cycle again. TNA has fallen while ROH has stepped up and they are close, far closer than most seem to want to admit.
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Post by JTG Fan on Dec 11, 2014 21:39:19 GMT -5
Give ROH credit, they know their level and what they have to do to stay in business and on the air.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 11, 2014 23:34:14 GMT -5
Give ROH credit, they know their level and what they have to do to stay in business and on the air. Yeah and it took them a bit of time to figure that out. Now granted they figured it out where TNA hasn't yet but I don't know if people realize how bad the transition to Sinclair was for them or how things didn't work out with HD net
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 23:50:00 GMT -5
Give ROH credit, they know their level and what they have to do to stay in business and on the air. Yeah and it took them a bit of time to figure that out. Now granted they figured it out where TNA hasn't yet but I don't know if people realize how bad the transition to Sinclair was for them or how things didn't work out with HD net Still not perfect either. I wonder how many viewers they lost just via abysmal lag problems on their iPPVs, and even still, just last Sunday I sat and attempted to watch a PPV but the thing crapped out again with just horrendous lag. I love ROH, creatively they check the most boxes of any company in terms of what I wanna see in wrestling, but there are still wrinkles in their presentation that make it understandable that they aren't pulling TNA numbers. For all TNA's failings, they look like a major wrestling company.
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Post by jimmyjames on Dec 12, 2014 1:26:39 GMT -5
The main thing I think is, is that Sinclair doesn't want ROH to be #2 in the way TNA does, as a direct competitor to WWWE. Sinclair is content to have ROH just to programming for their stations. No national deal or any type of syndication.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Dec 12, 2014 1:37:46 GMT -5
The main thing I think is, is that Sinclair doesn't want ROH to be #2 in the way TNA does, as a direct competitor to WWWE. Sinclair is content to have ROH just to programming for their stations. No national deal or any type of syndication. I'll give you that ROH does not want to compete with WWE which is wise but are are doing syndication, albeit slowly. They added Atlanta a few months back as their first market and are looking to other market where it makes sense and not just rushing into that stuff. They're not looking to destroy what they've built up had to right and build up
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Dec 12, 2014 5:50:49 GMT -5
I do think that ROH know that they can't compete with the WWE without looking foolish. They're never going to beat the WWE at what they do so they're going to keep on doing their own thing.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 12, 2014 7:20:38 GMT -5
Seems to have come from Sinclair's own promotional material. If true, they're a long way off TNA level viewing figures and that's without taking in TNA's international audience into consideration. Dying to get the actual report to read but it is killing my comp. Now let's say that is right and they are just over 300k, that isn't far off from what TNA will be lucky to get sorry to break it to ya. Again, international is all well and good to brag about but that won't keep anyone alive. The US is the what matters the most to these guys and will always be the measuring stick. TNA beats RAW in the UK but you think anyone actually believes TNA is bigger or more successful? Fact is no matter how you (in general) want to spin it, ROH is nipping at TNA's heels when it comes to TV viewers but unlike TNA can actually run shows that aren't TV tapings. ROH makes money or loses very little, they'd be killed off by SBC otherwise, while TNA has limped along for over a year now hoping for their next hit of cash just so they can tape a few more TV spots and start the cycle again. TNA has fallen while ROH has stepped up and they are close, far closer than most seem to want to admit. Shouldn't we wait until TNA actually debut on their new station before declaring their ratings to be at the same level as RoH? The 290,000 audience figure comes from a presentation aimed at trying to keep small investors happy and confident, from a part where they're claiming broadcast beats cable so is most likely their rating on a -very- good weekend rather than the average, but hey, if you want to view TNA's contraction as a victory for RoH and proof that they're undergoing rapid growth, you're welcome to, can't fault you for having faith in your company of choice. Also, Sinclair's PDF files are a pain in the arse to get to display on my computer too, it takes 5 minutes for each frame to load.
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