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Post by Andy Martin on Dec 19, 2014 1:31:52 GMT -5
Is it time for YET ANOTHER one of these forced "HOW IS THE HEEL A HEEL? " thread where we conveniently ignore the heelish things the heel wrestlers do, like how Lesnar broke one of the most beloved wrestler of all time's undefeated streak, mocked him, compared himself to a God and has in general acted like a megalomaniac while his advocate crows endlessly about his accomplishments and weasels around, insulting the crowd and face wrestlers because he knows his freak bully of a friend will back him up? Or, maybe we'll do one with Rusev again, and act like he's the face because of that one time Henry and Big Show teamed up on him, the same man who endlessly berates the country he currently resides in as well as the people living in it, beat up a helpless old man, and continues to brutalize wrestlers even after the bell rings with his brutal submission hold. Is it really time? Because it shouldn't be. It should never be time for this thread ever again. Can we sticky this? Right next to 'Just what DOES buried mean?'
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 1:35:01 GMT -5
This, however, I agree with. Too many heels, even today, are heels for some of the most basic, archaic reasons: Rusev's "evil Soviet Russian" being a prime example. However, if we desire heels with a little nuance, why aren't we allowed flawed faces? Why are we so quick to call Cena a dick, por ejemplo, because he gets pissed off that someone tried to end his career and drops a million chairs on that guy in return (keep in mind, I say this as someone who likes Barrett a HELL of a lot more than I like Cena, and I have numerous complaints for how the Nexus storyline turned out). The thing is though that flawed faces only work if they acknowledge that they're flawed. With Cena though, no matter how many times he does shady shit - like breaking Batista's back after he'd already quit at Over the Limit or whatever PPV that was, or taking advantage of a tired Rey or whatever else - you're always told that you're supposed to whole-heartedly support it. He's clearly not supposed to be a flawed human being and whatever actions he's committing are supposed to be seen as moral.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Dec 19, 2014 1:40:07 GMT -5
It's not so much that Lesnar comes off as a good guy, so much as his opponents (Cena and HHH, at least) tend to come off as bigger dicks than he does.
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Post by benstudd on Dec 19, 2014 2:12:38 GMT -5
He said what makes him a bad guy, not what makes him lovable. "Cena Hate" is the only reason Brock isn't seen as a "bad guy". If he had his same booking, but with someone else inserted, this thread would not exist. Well Vader was pretty popular in WCW. When he defeated Sting esp. he started getting a lot of pops, his Legend was Made. People love dominant guys, I understand why promotions want to make them heels but from a fan standpoint, they can easily cheer for them, given that in "sports" it's about being number one, being the Top Dog.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 19, 2014 2:21:15 GMT -5
In a fair match, cleanly
No he didn't. He celebrated his accomplishment, which he had every right to
Hogan was described as immortal. Bret was the best there is/was/ever will be, HBK was the icon/showstopper etc...
Plenty of faces aggrandise themselves
Why shouldn't he?
How is he a bully? He confronted Jericho face to face. He does that often. Brock rarely sneak attacks anyone. They have ample warning that he's on his way.
Rusev usually wins clean. He beat up a helpless old man who just a few months ago was a right wing xenophobe. Plenty of Americans criticise their own country too. It's part of living in a free country.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 19, 2014 3:35:24 GMT -5
Brock Lesnar's a heel because he wears them black trunks and he comes to the ring from the heels' dressing room, dagnabbit. I hear Lawler, Cole, and JBL tell me how he's a bad person, and they'd know for sure how bad a person he is.
Believe you me, my granny- she's 92 years young, still sharp as a tack- remembers when Bruno was in charge, and she said she ever gets in the front row for a Lesnar match, she's taking her knitting needles out and she'll show him what's what, believe you me!
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Dec 19, 2014 4:50:39 GMT -5
In a fair match, cleanly No he didn't. He celebrated his accomplishment, which he had every right to Hogan was described as immortal. Bret was the best there is/was/ever will be, HBK was the icon/showstopper etc... Plenty of faces aggrandise themselves Why shouldn't he? How is he a bully? He confronted Jericho face to face. He does that often. Brock rarely sneak attacks anyone. They have ample warning that he's on his way. Rusev usually wins clean. He beat up a helpless old man who just a few months ago was a right wing xenophobe. Plenty of Americans criticise their own country too. It's part of living in a free country. Did you just ask why Brock Lesnar should not act like a megalomaniac? You might want to look that word up in the dictionary, because I don't think you understand what that word means. I'm pretty sure anyone acting like a megalomaniac would constitute being a heel. It's also why it's not okay for Paul Heyman to act like one, and then bring out Lesnar every time someone has had enough of his insults, even if he confronts them to his face. Also, you can't go around breaking the leg of every old man that's a right wing xenophobe. Especially since they never presented Rusev with any real justification for the attack, and even implied that it was done from behind.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 19, 2014 6:50:19 GMT -5
It's not so much that Lesnar comes off as a good guy, so much as his opponents (Cena and HHH, at least) tend to come off as bigger dicks than he does. We have a winner. There's plenty of room to debate if guys like Lesnar or Rusev are truly acting like heels most of the time, but the point stands that WWE faces are often among the most smug, sarcastic, unlikable, overreacting, petty characters in modern fiction.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 19, 2014 9:21:30 GMT -5
Heels don't always act like heels. Sometimes they're just assholes. They don't all cheat. They don't all lie. They're just pricks.
Brock is an asshole. And what's worse is he can kick your ass. He is that arrogant prick that everyone knew at school who didn't bully people that often, but was great at everything, and KNEW he was.
Except that as established, Brock does bully people, but you know, if we're doing the whole 'Brock doesn't do heelish things!' line of thinking then I figured it was worth pointing out that Brock, the character, is an asbolute asshole, he doesn't give a f*** about the belt, the title, the fans or even WWE. He just shows up, wrestles for God knows how much money, murders people in the ring, and then disappears.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 19, 2014 9:44:52 GMT -5
Except that as established, Brock does bully people, but you know, if we're doing the whole 'Brock doesn't do heelish things!' line of thinking then I figured it was worth pointing out that Brock, the character, is an asbolute asshole, he doesn't give a f*** about the belt, the title, the fans or even WWE. He just shows up, wrestles for God knows how much money, murders people in the ring, and then disappears. Why do those things make him an asshole? I don't give a shit about the title or the WWE as an institution either, and (speaking in kayfabe) I don't require that athletes care about the fans. There's this big assumption here that everyone cares about the same sacred idols that, well, Vince McMahon cares about, but it's not true. And worse, it comes off to me as Vince not getting over a grudge that has to do with something reasonable Brock did a decade ago.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 19, 2014 15:13:30 GMT -5
Heels don't always act like heels. Sometimes they're just assholes. They don't all cheat. They don't all lie. They're just pricks. Brock is an asshole. And what's worse is he can kick your ass. He is that arrogant prick that everyone knew at school who didn't bully people that often, but was great at everything, and KNEW he was. But honestly, that ties into the same issue for these. Quite frankly, EVERY SINGLE PERSON on WWE television, at this time, is a colossal prick, and all of the WWE angles right now boil down to everyone being colossal pricks to each other, with the announcers telling you who's a good person and who's a bad person by some arbitrary decision of "who's right" (and thus it's okay for them to be a colossal asshole) and "who's wrong" (and thus the bad guy.) It's pretty hard to buy into the fact that some of the heels are just assholes when right now in NXT, Sami Zayn's character can be boiled down to "he actually is not a colossal douchebag and will actually try to do the right thing, even in matches, instead of paying evil onto evil to show that doing evil is wrong"- and that simple face character alone makes him a breath of fresh air, solely by being a WWE character who is not a royal prick to everyone else.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 19, 2014 15:25:17 GMT -5
A megalomanic has delusions and fantasies of power. Lesnar's power is no illusion. Heyman for the most part simply tells the truth. He says that Lesnar beat the Undertaker. He did. He says that Lesnar will beat the shit out of Cena. He usually does.
You can in wrestling.
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Post by mcstoklasa on Dec 19, 2014 15:39:17 GMT -5
Brock is a pretty good friend
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Post by Dave the Dave on Dec 19, 2014 15:47:31 GMT -5
He's just kind of of an arrogant dick about it ya know? When someone is better than everyone and tells YOU.....people tend to not like that.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Dec 19, 2014 15:48:12 GMT -5
This, however, I agree with. Too many heels, even today, are heels for some of the most basic, archaic reasons: Rusev's "evil Soviet Russian" being a prime example. However, if we desire heels with a little nuance, why aren't we allowed flawed faces? Why are we so quick to call Cena a dick, por ejemplo, because he gets pissed off that someone tried to end his career and drops a million chairs on that guy in return (keep in mind, I say this as someone who likes Barrett a HELL of a lot more than I like Cena, and I have numerous complaints for how the Nexus storyline turned out). The thing is though that flawed faces only work if they acknowledge that they're flawed. With Cena though, no matter how many times he does shady shit - like breaking Batista's back after he'd already quit at Over the Limit or whatever PPV that was, or taking advantage of a tired Rey or whatever else - you're always told that you're supposed to whole-heartedly support it. He's clearly not supposed to be a flawed human being and whatever actions he's committing are supposed to be seen as moral. Excellent point. At least when Austin and Rock were the top faces while being assholes, they had justification in their dickishness due to Vince's shenanigans. The Authority were supportive of Cena until Cena was (arguably) unjustifiably a dick to them. They could easily make Cena go far more grey than he is portrayed to be, but they refuse because Vince is gunshy to alter the golden goose due to Wall St. holding a fit every time ratings dip slightly without looking into the future.
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Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm on Dec 19, 2014 15:50:35 GMT -5
He pushed a crippled one legged guy down a flight of stairs. That alone should brand you as an asshole for life.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 19, 2014 16:00:45 GMT -5
As far as I'm concerned, the only heel in the history of wrestling was "Da Bad Guy" Razor Ramon because he outright called himself a bad guy.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Dec 19, 2014 17:19:33 GMT -5
He pushed a crippled one legged guy down a flight of stairs. That alone should brand you as an asshole for life. If there's one think I've learned about American sports, it's that athletes can be forgiven for anything. Push a one-legged man down a flight of stairs, run a dog-fighting ring, beat the piss out a woman on camera, doesn't matter. Just keep being good at your sport.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Dec 20, 2014 12:09:11 GMT -5
Heels don't always act like heels. Sometimes they're just assholes. They don't all cheat. They don't all lie. They're just pricks. Brock is an asshole. And what's worse is he can kick your ass. He is that arrogant prick that everyone knew at school who didn't bully people that often, but was great at everything, and KNEW he was. But honestly, that ties into the same issue for these. Quite frankly, EVERY SINGLE PERSON on WWE television, at this time, is a colossal prick, and all of the WWE angles right now boil down to everyone being colossal pricks to each other, with the announcers telling you who's a good person and who's a bad person by some arbitrary decision of "who's right" (and thus it's okay for them to be a colossal asshole) and "who's wrong" (and thus the bad guy.) It's pretty hard to buy into the fact that some of the heels are just assholes when right now in NXT, Sami Zayn's character can be boiled down to "he actually is not a colossal douchebag and will actually try to do the right thing, even in matches, instead of paying evil onto evil to show that doing evil is wrong"- and that simple face character alone makes him a breath of fresh air, solely by being a WWE character who is not a royal prick to everyone else. You're right, but that's a wider issue here. Brock should be less likable than the people he's facing, ideally. And in 2012, he actually was getting booed in front of a previously Cena-hostile crowd at Extreme Rules 2012 because Cena barely touched him until he won the match. It's not so much 'why is Brock a heel?' it's more a problem of 'why are all of WWE's faces heels?'
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