Dat Dude
Dennis Stamp
Wait, what?
Posts: 4,785
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Post by Dat Dude on Jan 8, 2015 14:06:20 GMT -5
I love them both... ![](http://scififantasylitchick.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/dont-make-me-choose.gif)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2015 19:05:33 GMT -5
Neither, I am a Jim Ross guy.
Bah Gawd Keeng, is Jim Shrute!! Business is about to pick up.
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Post by sportatorium on Jan 8, 2015 20:13:21 GMT -5
Heyman. He seems to bury the hatchet & do business even when he has a falling out. He tries to get everything over when he goes on TV. Summing up ECW as barbed wire & thumbtacks is extremely short sighted.
I like Cornette, but think of Heyman much more highly.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,059
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Post by chazraps on Jan 8, 2015 20:20:23 GMT -5
If Heyman was so creative why did he need to have a wrestling company where people set things on fire and used barbed wire and chairshots and blood etc. I've never been able to marry up the description bestowed upon him of 'creative genius' and the reality of someone who used so many cheap tricks and gimmicks that in the end people became immune to them. It feels a bit like giving the Nobel prize for literature to a book that has really cool pop-out pages. I disagree with Cornette on many things but at least he is what I call a creative mind. Who understands how to sculpt a wrestling angle. In reality Heyman in someways was just Russo without corporate restrictions. Let's do a bunch of crazy **** and then you run in with the chair and you wth the baseball bat, you go through a table, you set the ladder on fire and then you brawl to the back covered in blood with a needle sticking out your ass. It doesn't take a creative mind, to my way of thinking, to work out that if you hit a guy on the head with a weapon until he bleeds profusely that people will develop a thirst for blood and go crazy over it. So for I'm a Jim Cornette guy, given the options, because I don't think there was anything exceptionally creative about much of what ECW did in order to gain the notoriety it did. A game show that has a woman standing there with no top on will be entertaining and it may get viewers but it won't be 'creative genius', it'll be using tits to get viewers - something it does't really need a creative mind to deduce will get viewers. ![](http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/11/trre.gif)
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Post by bmfjules on Jan 8, 2015 20:22:54 GMT -5
One thing that bugs me about Corny is how he pretty much openly wishes death on Vince Russo. I hate Russo's horrible insulting TV gimmicks but going into that next level of legit hating the guy to the point of wishing him dead is just very immature.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jan 8, 2015 20:58:43 GMT -5
One thing that bugs me about Corny is how he pretty much openly wishes death on Vince Russo. I hate Russo's horrible insulting TV gimmicks but going into that next level of legit hating the guy to the point of wishing him dead is just very immature. Maturity in pro wrestling circles is a rare beast indeed.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 8, 2015 21:13:20 GMT -5
I have to find the post I did when Corny was fantasy booking the Invasion angle and it was beyond the drizzling shits.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Jan 8, 2015 21:14:00 GMT -5
If Heyman was so creative why did he need to have a wrestling company where people set things on fire and used barbed wire and chairshots and blood etc. I've never been able to marry up the description bestowed upon him of 'creative genius' and the reality of someone who used so many cheap tricks and gimmicks that in the end people became immune to them. It feels a bit like giving the Nobel prize for literature to a book that has really cool pop-out pages. I disagree with Cornette on many things but at least he is what I call a creative mind. Who understands how to sculpt a wrestling angle. In reality Heyman in someways was just Russo without corporate restrictions. Let's do a bunch of crazy **** and then you run in with the chair and you wth the baseball bat, you go through a table, you set the ladder on fire and then you brawl to the back covered in blood with a needle sticking out your ass. It doesn't take a creative mind, to my way of thinking, to work out that if you hit a guy on the head with a weapon until he bleeds profusely that people will develop a thirst for blood and go crazy over it. So for I'm a Jim Cornette guy, given the options, because I don't think there was anything exceptionally creative about much of what ECW did in order to gain the notoriety it did. A game show that has a woman standing there with no top on will be entertaining and it may get viewers but it won't be 'creative genius', it'll be using tits to get viewers - something it does't really need a creative mind to deduce will get viewers. ![](http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/11/trre.gif) ECW shortened careers, it's veracious insistence of pushing the pain barrier probably shortened lives. As Cornette said - it helped get wrestling to stage where people were actually doing real physical harm to themselves - and the audience was immune to it. But to criticise anything Heyman did on the internet is unspeakable - I get that. I thought I raised an interesting point about whether the creativity in ECW wasn't merely cheap exploitation tactics - but you have a funny gif of the Rock rolling his eyes, so I guess that's me in my place.
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theryno665
Grimlock
wants a title underneath the stars
Kinda Homeless
Posts: 13,571
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Post by theryno665 on Jan 8, 2015 21:19:40 GMT -5
Heyman all the way.
I like Cornette but he refuses to admit some of his ideas and business models are woefully outdated.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,059
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Post by chazraps on Jan 8, 2015 21:50:12 GMT -5
ECW shortened careers, it's veracious insistence of pushing the pain barrier probably shortened lives. As Cornette said - it helped get wrestling to stage where people were actually doing real physical harm to themselves - and the audience was immune to it. But to criticise anything Heyman did on the internet is unspeakable - I get that. I thought I raised an interesting point about whether the creativity in ECW wasn't merely cheap exploitation tactics - but you have a funny gif of the Rock rolling his eyes, so I guess that's me in my place. ![](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcv5ft1Go71r3ty02o1_400.gif)
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Square
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Official Ambassador
Grand Poobah of Scavenger Hunts 2011
Square-Because he looks good at all the right angles.
Posts: 18,701
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Post by Square on Jan 8, 2015 21:53:32 GMT -5
ECW shortened careers, it's veracious insistence of pushing the pain barrier probably shortened lives. As Cornette said - it helped get wrestling to stage where people were actually doing real physical harm to themselves - and the audience was immune to it. But to criticise anything Heyman did on the internet is unspeakable - I get that. I thought I raised an interesting point about whether the creativity in ECW wasn't merely cheap exploitation tactics - but you have a funny gif of the Rock rolling his eyes, so I guess that's me in my place. ![](http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcv5ft1Go71r3ty02o1_400.gif) Hey mr rapper man, you just got owned.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,059
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Post by chazraps on Jan 8, 2015 21:59:37 GMT -5
ECW shortened careers, it's veracious insistence of pushing the pain barrier probably shortened lives. As Cornette said - it helped get wrestling to stage where people were actually doing real physical harm to themselves - and the audience was immune to it. But to criticise anything Heyman did on the internet is unspeakable - I get that. I thought I raised an interesting point about whether the creativity in ECW wasn't merely cheap exploitation tactics - but you have a funny gif of the Rock rolling his eyes, so I guess that's me in my place. But seriously, you clearly weren't watching at the time. It wasn't just WIRE! WEAPONS! SEX! SWEARING! That was ONE OF THE promotional tactics for it, but that wasn't the entire card. Ever. In any era of the company. You didn't raise an interesting point because your "point" is a complete falsehood. Have you seen a single episode of ECW Hardcore TV?
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Post by madness50 on Jan 9, 2015 1:12:49 GMT -5
I like both guys, but I would give the edge to Paul E. I agree with Cornette that sports entertainment is bullshit, but I also don't believe wrestling should be booked like its 1983. Heyman is a known liar, but he is a fascinating person with a great gift of gab and a natural antagonist.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 9, 2015 1:22:55 GMT -5
No, but he was certainly part of the team that began the rebuilding. All the pieces were there, but needed time to develop. Once Austin, Rock, HHH, Foley etc...found their ideal characters, WCW was up shit creek. I seriously doubt Cornette was at a loss to explain why they were losing the ratings battle. WCW was loaded with big names. He would have known it would bring them success, in the short term at least. Cornette's contribution to the Attitude Era was the nWa invasion. How'd that work out for ya? Well now the goalposts are shifting. He either was an influential part of WWF booking at the time, and therefore deserves credit/blame for what they were booking, or a minimal marginal part of it limited to just the NWA, and thus can't be blamed for their wider struggles.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 9, 2015 6:27:52 GMT -5
ECW shortened careers, it's veracious insistence of pushing the pain barrier probably shortened lives. As Cornette said - it helped get wrestling to stage where people were actually doing real physical harm to themselves - and the audience was immune to it. But to criticise anything Heyman did on the internet is unspeakable - I get that. I thought I raised an interesting point about whether the creativity in ECW wasn't merely cheap exploitation tactics - but you have a funny gif of the Rock rolling his eyes, so I guess that's me in my place. But seriously, you clearly weren't watching at the time. It wasn't just WIRE! WEAPONS! SEX! SWEARING! That was ONE OF THE promotional tactics for it, but that wasn't the entire card. Ever. In any era of the company. You didn't raise an interesting point because your "point" is a complete falsehood. Have you seen a single episode of ECW Hardcore TV? That was the biggest selling point for it, the show you mention is called Hardcore TV and the company's logo had barbed wire on it for crying out loud. It may have featured some quality matches, but wrestlers going out there and putting on the best wrestling they could was never given the same priority as people swinging sticks, chairs or dropping through tables. It wasn't all their was to ECW, but it takes a special kind of nostalgia to ignore the fact that Heyman made it the major selling point of the promotion. I dunno, maybe there is a tonne of material where Raven, Sandman, Tommy Dreamer, The Dudleys, Sabu, Foley, RVD, New Jack and others went out and put on 30 minute mat classics without the use of any weapons that outweigh all the matches with chairshots, head drops and table spots they were involved in that have left many ECW workers in such stellar condition in the present day.
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Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
didn't want one.
I could write a book about what you don't know!
Posts: 12,530
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Jan 9, 2015 8:27:16 GMT -5
It is wrong to say ECW was all about the hardcore stuff, because that would be a lie. It had a lot more to offer. However, it would not be very far-fetched to say that the prominent lasting legacy of ECW is the hardcore stuff. That's what most folks remember, for good or for worse, because it stood out at the time.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 9, 2015 8:39:20 GMT -5
But seriously, you clearly weren't watching at the time. It wasn't just WIRE! WEAPONS! SEX! SWEARING! That was ONE OF THE promotional tactics for it, but that wasn't the entire card. Ever. In any era of the company. You didn't raise an interesting point because your "point" is a complete falsehood. Have you seen a single episode of ECW Hardcore TV? That was the biggest selling point for it, the show you mention is called Hardcore TV and the company's logo had barbed wire on it for crying out loud. It may have featured some quality matches, but wrestlers going out there and putting on the best wrestling they could was never given the same priority as people swinging sticks, chairs or dropping through tables. It wasn't all their was to ECW, but it takes a special kind of nostalgia to ignore the fact that Heyman made it the major selling point of the promotion. I dunno, maybe there is a tonne of material where Raven, Sandman, Tommy Dreamer, The Dudleys, Sabu, Foley, RVD, New Jack and others went out and put on 30 minute mat classics without the use of any weapons that outweigh all the matches with chairshots, head drops and table spots they were involved in that have left many ECW workers in such stellar condition in the present day. ECW did no more amount of hardcore than they did in pro wrestling the 60's, 70's, 80's, and early 90's. Blood and hardcore were a staple on wrestling cards look before ECW. The Shiek made a long career of working the hardcore style. Dusty Rhodes, Dick Slater, and Dich Murdoch bleed buckets on a near nightly basis. Same for Abdullah the Butcher, Bruiser Brody, Terry Funk, Jerry Lawler, etc. Barbwire was just the design that ECW used. They didn't even have that many barbed wire matches nor used it in matches regularly. All ECW did was take the style used in FMW and market towards the un-pc mid to late 90's wrestling fan. ECW wasn't just hardcore brawling and weapon shots galore. Shane Douglas didn't need to resort to weapons during most of his matches. RVD could go either way and even going hardcore, it flowed with the match. Chris Jericho, 2 Cold Scorpio, Dean Malenko, Eddy Guerrero, Benoit, Super Crazy, Kid Kash, and a number others didn't have to work that way and still got strong pushes. Swinging a chair and taking a cane shot weren't requirements for a push. Former ECW alumni in bad are that way because of lifestyle choices outside of the ring. The style they did may play a part but the sole reason why they are broken down.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,059
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Post by chazraps on Jan 9, 2015 12:46:44 GMT -5
But seriously, you clearly weren't watching at the time. It wasn't just WIRE! WEAPONS! SEX! SWEARING! That was ONE OF THE promotional tactics for it, but that wasn't the entire card. Ever. In any era of the company. You didn't raise an interesting point because your "point" is a complete falsehood. Have you seen a single episode of ECW Hardcore TV? That was the biggest selling point for it, the show you mention is called Hardcore TV and the company's logo had barbed wire on it for crying out loud. It may have featured some quality matches, but wrestlers going out there and putting on the best wrestling they could was never given the same priority as people swinging sticks, chairs or dropping through tables. It wasn't all their was to ECW, but it takes a special kind of nostalgia to ignore the fact that Heyman made it the major selling point of the promotion. I dunno, maybe there is a tonne of material where Raven, Sandman, Tommy Dreamer, The Dudleys, Sabu, Foley, RVD, New Jack and others went out and put on 30 minute mat classics without the use of any weapons that outweigh all the matches with chairshots, head drops and table spots they were involved in that have left many ECW workers in such stellar condition in the present day. There's a difference between "major selling point" and "point of distinction." The fact that ECW was the only promotion to have such things is what could immediately identify them as an alternative product, but to suggest "LOOK AT ALL THIS BLOOD" was the cornerstone of their marketing is to ignore what the idea of them being an alternative product really was. They weren't just "WWF - but with BLOOD!" or "WCW - but with WEAPONS!" ECW was a 90s movement. If you can't see the difference between ECW and, say, XPW that really was just 90s sleaze and weapons, you really need to revisit the actual hardcore TV episodes.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,417
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Post by Boo! on Jan 9, 2015 14:00:20 GMT -5
But in terms of creative surely it's more of a creative challenge to produce wrestling shows or TV shows in general where you don't rely weekly on car-chases or explosions or (in ECW's case) weapons. It might be unfair to call the hardcore element all that ECW did but they were certainly heavily reliant on it and whether it worked or didn't is surely irrelevant to the fact that surely a reliance on it is makes it an easier burden on creativity vs a promotion that solely relies on traditional wrestling storytelling techniques to promote itself.
You can think Cornette is wrong in everything he's said and everything he's booked but in terms of judging creativity - booking beats barbed wire, at least when the gimmicks are used excessively and using them excessively was pretty much ECW's MO.
It's like a romance drama. I might think it's a piece of crap and it holds no interest for me at all but I can at least recognise that its formulation was more of an artistic and creative challenge than some crap with Bruce Willis where random stuff happens in between gunfights and car chase. I might find the car chases more entertaining than a long 2 hour, dialogue heavy drama but I'd like to think I'd recognise at least the creative merit of one vs the comparatively over-reliance on cheap tactics of the other.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Jan 9, 2015 15:13:00 GMT -5
But in terms of creative surely it's more of a creative challenge to produce wrestling shows or TV shows in general where you don't rely weekly on car-chases or explosions or (in ECW's case) weapons. It might be unfair to call the hardcore element all that ECW did but they were certainly heavily reliant on it and whether it worked or didn't is surely irrelevant to the fact that surely a reliance on it is makes it an easier burden on creativity vs a promotion that solely relies on traditional wrestling storytelling techniques to promote itself. You can think Cornette is wrong in everything he's said and everything he's booked but in terms of judging creativity - booking beats barbed wire, at least when the gimmicks are used excessively and using them excessively was pretty much ECW's MO. It's like a romance drama. I might think it's a piece of crap and it holds no interest for me at all but I can at least recognise that its formulation was more of an artistic and creative challenge than some crap with Bruce Willis where random stuff happens in between gunfights and car chase. I might find the car chases more entertaining than a long 2 hour, dialogue heavy drama but I'd like to think I'd recognise at least the creative merit of one vs the comparatively over-reliance on cheap tactics of the other. Again, ECW wasn't the only thing Heyman booked. If anything, his OVW and SD booking trumps anything he did with ECW.
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