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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jan 3, 2015 22:06:41 GMT -5
I think we can probably fire Bill Demott along with Regal actually, because clearly we have loads of people on here that can judge whether or not each guy is ready for their first match on NXT. Saying Khali sucked is completely subjective. As it saying Kozlov wasn't about character. I would completely say his lack of a main event run was because he didn't have enough about him overall to connect as a heel. He was bland as a character. Again, for hopefully the last time, I'm arguing against people saying they like Reigns, but will be willing to boo him to show that in their mind, he isn't 'ready' from a worker standpoint. Which is not a critique on his character, it's people assuming their subjective understanding of what talent actually is, is actually objective fact. But isn't the POV of people like McMahon or Regal or Patterson or whomever just as subjective? Yeah, they 'know' the wrestling business. But I've also seen a lot of wrestling matches and seen a lot of wrestling stories told in my lifetime. I know what I like and I know what I don't like, and no matter how much 'objective knowledge' people like Vince McMahon or Triple H have when it comes to wrestling and booking will change that. Isn't that the real point of contention? That a lot of people like Bryan, that possibly more people like Bryan and like him more intensely than those who like Reigns, and as a result want to see Bryan get the W at Wrestlemania, especially if they are paying customers? Exactly. Let me go one more person on this: RANDY ORTON. I freaking love the dude, you listen to anyone in wrestling speak from near any era and Orton is the guy they point to as the best going today but whenever he gets the title, people tune out. A large portion of wrestling fans want nothing to do with Randy Orton: WWE World Heavyweight Champion despite how good those that are wrestling people say he is. It is not character, he has been face and heel, he has been the Viper and the Face of WWE and he was the 20-something young guy as well as the 30 something veteran. A lot of people just don't see Orton as WWE Champion material and do not watch.
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Johnny B. Decent
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Post by Johnny B. Decent on Jan 3, 2015 22:09:53 GMT -5
This really is one of the strangest damn arguments I've seen here. I mean, I think Roman Reigns does have potential, but he's still way too unseasoned, and I think oif they have him win the RR and beat Lesnar at WM, the large majority of fans will take a collective shit all over it and the subsequent title reign.
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Post by Stu on Jan 3, 2015 22:11:57 GMT -5
I was asking if you would take that as an indicator that fans would rather see Bryan win instead of Reigns. Oh I have no doubt there's a big portion of the fanbase that would prefer seeing Bryan win. On the other hand, I also think there's something to the idea of "Who's going to benefit more from beating Lesnar in the long run?" For example, WWE felt that it was more important that Punk go into his match with The Rock as having well over a year long title reign than having Ryback keep his momentum. Well they had Ryback lose and it essentially took him 2 years to ever back to even being CLOSE to what he was and even then he's still not there yet. I do fear that Reigns was being groomed for this big moment and got all this other big moments and that if WWE waits too long with him, they'll risk the big moments they gave him at the Rumble, Survivor Series, etc in the past becoming meaningless and having to do that all over again. Let me ask you this. A lot of people would be fine with Reigns winning the big one once he gets more experience. Under what circumstances would you find it acceptable for Bryan to win the championship again?
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 3, 2015 22:13:46 GMT -5
Oh I have no doubt there's a big portion of the fanbase that would prefer seeing Bryan win. On the other hand, I also think there's something to the idea of "Who's going to benefit more from beating Lesnar in the long run?" For example, WWE felt that it was more important that Punk go into his match with The Rock as having well over a year long title reign than having Ryback keep his momentum. Well they had Ryback lose and it essentially took him 2 years to ever back to even being CLOSE to what he was and even then he's still not there yet. I do fear that Reigns was being groomed for this big moment and got all this other big moments and that if WWE waits too long with him, they'll risk the big moments they gave him at the Rumble, Survivor Series, etc in the past becoming meaningless and having to do that all over again. Let me ask you this. A lot of people would be fine with Reigns winning the big one once he gets more experience. Under what circumstances would you find it acceptable for Bryan to win the championship again? Against a heel that isn't Lesnar sometime after whoever beats Lesnar gets his chance at the title. Maybe against Rollins or something down the road in 2015
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Post by Stu on Jan 3, 2015 22:31:10 GMT -5
Let me ask you this. A lot of people would be fine with Reigns winning the big one once he gets more experience. Under what circumstances would you find it acceptable for Bryan to win the championship again? Against a heel that isn't Lesnar sometime after whoever beats Lesnar gets his chance at the title. Maybe against Rollins or something down the road in 2015 So hypothetically, if Cena wins at the Rumble and Brock is taken out of the equation, you'd be fine with Bryan winning?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 3, 2015 22:34:10 GMT -5
But isn't the POV of people like McMahon or Regal or Patterson or whomever just as subjective? Yeah, they 'know' the wrestling business. But I've also seen a lot of wrestling matches and seen a lot of wrestling stories told in my lifetime. I know what I like and I know what I don't like, and no matter how much 'objective knowledge' people like Vince McMahon or Triple H have when it comes to wrestling and booking will change that. Isn't that the real point of contention? That a lot of people like Bryan, that possibly more people like Bryan and like him more intensely than those who like Reigns, and as a result want to see Bryan get the W at Wrestlemania, especially if they are paying customers? Exactly. Let me go one more person on this: RANDY ORTON. I freaking love the dude, you listen to anyone in wrestling speak from near any era and Orton is the guy they point to as the best going today but whenever he gets the title, people tune out. A large portion of wrestling fans want nothing to do with Randy Orton: WWE World Heavyweight Champion despite how good those that are wrestling people say he is. It is not character, he has been face and heel, he has been the Viper and the Face of WWE and he was the 20-something young guy as well as the 30 something veteran. A lot of people just don't see Orton as WWE Champion material and do not watch. And just as a counterpoint; Orton bores the living hell outta me even though I recognize his talents. By the metrics of the people that judge the stuff, he SHOULD be a guy that everyone loves. Thing is, I recognize he's very good, just don't care, he doesn't interest me. That's the contention of the argument with saying that "as a fan you don't know what you're talking about and blah blah blah..", if a guy doesn't entertain you, and you like someone else more, measurables are irrelevant.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 3, 2015 22:42:48 GMT -5
Against a heel that isn't Lesnar sometime after whoever beats Lesnar gets his chance at the title. Maybe against Rollins or something down the road in 2015 So hypothetically, if Cena wins at the Rumble and Brock is taken out of the equation, you'd be fine with Bryan winning? I proposed this same question in another thread actually. At that point, Lesnar's no longer God so it can be built up that other people can beat him. Bryan vs Cena doesn't do much for me since it would be the exact same story we had back in 2013 with the same people, whereas at least with Reigns it could be interpreted as the guy who really is going to take Cena's spot, not simply the guy who really wants it badly. I don't know honestly, but it would make for an interesting dilemma at that point.
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Post by edgestar on Jan 3, 2015 22:51:34 GMT -5
I also feel bad that he's never called me baby girl. Belee dat.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 23:12:20 GMT -5
Like what? Noise levels? Pupil responses of the audience? Atmospheric pressure? What? Often yes, when you consider that the company is run by an old man who doesn't even regard his wrestling company as being a wrestling company. I don't deny Cena has proven himself as a star. Those aren't mysterious other metrics. They are all verifiable business stats. The movie WWE barely even mentioned, if at all, on their programming. Again, Cena isn't the issue. They went with it, kicking and screaming. It was obvious for ages that Bryan wasn't a niche. Their product had to be hijacked before they realised the obvious. No, no, it's fine. I'm going to try and bow out here. This always happens in internet debates, where you encounter people that get such an over inflated sense of their own knowledge of what they are commenting on that is supposedly surpasses any knowledge, metrics, or a level of understanding about a business than a fan couldn't possibly have. This is why HHH cuts these sort of troll promos he's been doing this year. It's frankly obvious that they will have ways of assessing the potential and current performance of their talent that we won't have access to. So, so obvious. And just on your 'Cena isn't the issue' point...I know...he wasn't even the main thrust of my point there, at all. Knock it off with these sorts of comments. We are here to discuss, not attack each other. You do not come on here and bash other people. No one's claiming to be an expert here but they have the right to make comments free from condescending remarks.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 3, 2015 23:13:12 GMT -5
So hypothetically, if Cena wins at the Rumble and Brock is taken out of the equation, you'd be fine with Bryan winning? I proposed this same question in another thread actually. At that point, Lesnar's no longer God so it can be built up that other people can beat him. Bryan vs Cena doesn't do much for me since it would be the exact same story we had back in 2013 with the same people, whereas at least with Reigns it could be interpreted as the guy who really is going to take Cena's spot, not simply the guy who really wants it badly. I don't know honestly, but it would make for an interesting dilemma at that point. Lesnar is "no longer God" now because of the whole "He would've lost to Cena if Seth Rollins didn't interfere" thing.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jan 3, 2015 23:13:23 GMT -5
Its the E's pride at stake. Thus rushing Reigns. Isnt doing him any favors, when the popular consensus (Not just here, but mainstream online) is "Dudes not ready but is getting pushed because Lesnars gotta put SOMEBODY over" and they've been married to the idea it'd be Reigns for ages, and again, Dat-WWE-Pride tho.
Hopefully its Bryan-Brock.
I do feel a bit for Reigns. He comes off as very defensive in interviews, because I think he knows people are right, but he cant admit that, vecause god forbid anyone show vulnerability in Vince's eyes.
Except. You know. Bryan. And its made him one of the hottest stars in forever. But who's keeping count, right?
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 3, 2015 23:16:20 GMT -5
Its the E's pride at stake. Thus rushing Reigns. Isnt doing him any favors, when the popular consensus (Not just here, but mainstream online) is "Dudes not ready but is getting pushed because Lesnars gotta put SOMEBODY over" and they've been married to the idea it'd be Reigns for ages, and again, Dat-WWE-Pride tho. Hopefully its Bryan-Brock. I do feel a bit for Reigns. He comes off as very defensive in interviews, because I think he knows people are right, but he cant admit that, vecause god forbid anyone show vulnerability in Vince's eyes. Except. You know. Bryan. And its made him one of the hottest stars in forever. But who's keeping count, right? I'm surprised that WWE's boner for Reigns doesn't allow him to just say "I get pushed when I WANT to get pushed, and I don't feel like getting pushed. You push me when Im damn good and ready for you to push me. " They're pushing him because he's related to the Rock, so even if he walked up to Vince's face and sneezed on his ketchup and steak wrap, Vince would be too afraid of upsetting the Rock to shove him down to Ryder level.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jan 3, 2015 23:27:44 GMT -5
Rock's relation is part of it, his size is another, his good looks are another, and the fact he's gotten over before is another.
I'm not saying he shouldn't be the next "Guy" or the next "Cena". He's as good of a candidate as any. But (as others in this thread have pointed out), 'E screws it up. Hard. By forcing it. No one gets with the girl or guy thats like "ME! Me! You wanna be with me! You Do, You Do, You Do!" You gotta let it happen naturally at its own pace.
Unless you're Austin and you're such a bad boy, and you just DGAF, that we're like "YEAH!"
...Man, I miss Austin.
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Post by gnr123 on Jan 3, 2015 23:40:29 GMT -5
Rock's relation is part of it, his size is another, his good looks are another, and the fact he's gotten over before is another. I'm not saying he shouldn't be the next "Guy" or the next "Cena". He's as good of a candidate as any. But (as others in this thread have pointed out), 'E screws it up. Hard. By forcing it. No one gets with the girl or guy thats like "ME! Me! You wanna be with me! You Do, You Do, You Do!" You gotta let it happen naturally at its own pace. Unless you're Austin and you're such a bad boy, and you just DGAF, that we're like "YEAH!" ...Man, I miss Austin. That's the problem, it's force, and everyone knows it. When Cena was pushed, he was getting over organically to the point where he was getting cheered over The Undertaker, you had to turn him face. Reigns push though, feels forced and manufactured by the company. And, just like Sheamus, Swagger, Del Rio, Randy Orton and others before him who were obviously backed by the company, but not the fans, it could hurt him badly.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jan 3, 2015 23:47:22 GMT -5
Rock's relation is part of it, his size is another, his good looks are another, and the fact he's gotten over before is another. I'm not saying he shouldn't be the next "Guy" or the next "Cena". He's as good of a candidate as any. But (as others in this thread have pointed out), 'E screws it up. Hard. By forcing it. No one gets with the girl or guy thats like "ME! Me! You wanna be with me! You Do, You Do, You Do!" You gotta let it happen naturally at its own pace. Unless you're Austin and you're such a bad boy, and you just DGAF, that we're like "YEAH!" ...Man, I miss Austin. That's the problem, it's force, and everyone knows it. When Cena was pushed, he was getting over organically to the point where he was getting cheered over The Undertaker, you had to turn him face. Reigns push though, feels forced and manufactured by the company. And, just like Sheamus, Swagger, Del Rio, Randy Orton and others before him who were obviously backed by the company, but not the fans, it could hurt him badly. Yeah breh, you're right on point (OR FLEEK) about Cena, but you can make the argument 'E made the same mistake with him. After he had already won over the fans on his own, 'E committed to him and strapped that rocket to his back and aimed it right down our throats. I was shocked when Cena got obvious boo's as early as WM 21 in his match agaist JBL.
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Boo!
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Post by Boo! on Jan 4, 2015 3:12:00 GMT -5
Whoever wins the strap at Mania will depend on what storylines they have lined up for the summer. I think there's a feeling of 'had his go for a while' with Bryan and they're much more likely to keep him as a 'marque match' player they can drift into the spotlight later on in the year. All this talk of him being deprived of his title run - I don't think his title run was ever getting to SummerSlam. I don't think there was any way WWE wasn't going to go with Cena vs Lesnar as their box office for that event and as an overarching storyline for the rest of the year. Rightly or wrongly WWE doesn't value Bryan above Cena so I don't think there was any way Cena/Lesnar wasn't going to headline that PPV.
So from their perspective I think Bryan only lost the strap a month or two early and there really won't be a "he didn't complete his run last year so let's try again" in my view anyway. What we may now see for Bryan is the intended storyline that would have played out as a fallout of that 'loss' that was planned in summer of last year.
As for Reigns - he could be being protected in terms of TV time. If they're going to launch him at WrestleMania then they're going to have to keep something back. We've not had the first Raw of the year yet - he isn't going to be cutting 15 minute promos and being the be-all and end-all of every television show because it'll lessen the impact of that WM moment - by the time he gets there people might be sick of him.It's an era where face title runs can realistically only last a few months at most. If Reigns was pushed hard already and given Cena-levels of TV/mic time there'd be fatigue from the audience to him by the time his time in the spotlight kicks off.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jan 4, 2015 3:23:53 GMT -5
The only thing is, there wasn't really anybody at Cena's level when they began pushing him way too hard as champion. Reigns at least would have a lot of guys around him (Bryan, Rollins, Ambrose, Wyatt, Cena himself) which might help
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Post by benstudd on Jan 4, 2015 3:57:55 GMT -5
Looking back at the Shield, I remember how cool and awesome I felt those three guys were separately and how badass they were as a concept. I could never imagine my perception of Reigns changing so much from when he was with the Shield not even a year ago.
We talk about the WWE screwing up with Cesaro cause after Mania they kept giving him a hot potato that he had to handle without trying to burn himself but looking at Reigns, their booking of him has not been great either and that's by going to the opposite root of overprotecting him. In short lately everything they touch turns to poison.
I wish they would pull back a bit on the whole thing but I'm not sure how. Maybe for him it would be good to say...face Brock and have a good showing but losing. I think this would give him a ton of respect and cred.
Another way would be to pull back on his mega face push would be to have him turn heel for a while. Just so he can learn his craft and wait for the right moment to make him your Top face.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2015 4:09:25 GMT -5
Looking back at the Shield, I remember how cool and awesome I felt those three guys were separately and how badass they were as a concept. I could never imagine my perception of Reigns changing so much from when he was with the Shield not even a year ago. We talk about the WWE screwing up with Cesaro cause after Mania they kept giving him a hot potato that he had to handle without trying to burn himself but looking at Reigns, their booking of him has not been great either and that's by going to the opposite root of overprotecting him. In short lately everything they touch turns to poison. I wish they would pull back a bit on the whole thing but I'm not sure how. Maybe for him it would be good to say...face Brock and have a good showing but losing. I think this would give him a ton of respect and cred. Another way would be to pull back on his mega face push would be to have him turn heel for a while. Just so he can learn his craft and wait for the right moment to make him your Top face. There's a serious problem with Reigns' being a heel as a singles wrestler: How is he going to carry offense in matches? Thats gonna be an awful lot of stomping and restholds.
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wcc2
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Post by wcc2 on Jan 4, 2015 7:25:55 GMT -5
Exactly. Let me go one more person on this: RANDY ORTON. I freaking love the dude, you listen to anyone in wrestling speak from near any era and Orton is the guy they point to as the best going today but whenever he gets the title, people tune out. A large portion of wrestling fans want nothing to do with Randy Orton: WWE World Heavyweight Champion despite how good those that are wrestling people say he is. It is not character, he has been face and heel, he has been the Viper and the Face of WWE and he was the 20-something young guy as well as the 30 something veteran. A lot of people just don't see Orton as WWE Champion material and do not watch. And just as a counterpoint; Orton bores the living hell outta me even though I recognize his talents. By the metrics of the people that judge the stuff, he SHOULD be a guy that everyone loves. Thing is, I recognize he's very good, just don't care, he doesn't interest me. That's the contention of the argument with saying that "as a fan you don't know what you're talking about and blah blah blah..", if a guy doesn't entertain you, and you like someone else more, measurables are irrelevant. For the 7 billionth time, I have repeatedly said I have no issue with fans reacting to their entertainment or lack thereof with a particular character. The business wouldn't survive without it. What I have issue with is the people that say they like Reigns, but will actively boo him because of their view of his ability as a worker, which is that he isn't ready yet. I've never, ever heard of that happening before, and I think it's just crazy. L
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