Zach
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 368
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Post by Zach on Jan 28, 2015 10:45:26 GMT -5
Paying dues is in the old mentality of the business. Did Cena, Orton, Batista etc pay their dues? Cena was an indies wrestler before he was in WWE. He had a sweet cyborg/terminator gimmick called the Prototype. The Rock however just immediately went into WWF and got a push, no one ever gave him shit about not paying dues. There is an interview with Al Snow somewhere where he talked about Tough Enough and how if anyone criticizes them for taking an easy route to WWE then they're idiots. He said if you had the opportunity to get on a reality show that put you right into WWE instead of working in the indies for years then of course you should do it. He basically said the whole "paying dues" thing is BS
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 28, 2015 10:57:49 GMT -5
What about Benoit et al chopping the living shit out of Daniel Puder at the Royal Rumble (I forget which year)? Personally, I thought that was ridiculous..... Wasn't that in retaliation for what he did to Angle? No, Puder had heat for other reasons... 1)He was very cocky 2)He always had an entourage with him 3)He legit got a $1 million contract and was making a lot more than most of the wrestlers at that time. From what I understand Angle was pissed that Puder put him in the keylock, but once it was done it was done. Angle didn't get pissed until Puder started using Angle to get himself over in MMA.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 28, 2015 11:39:50 GMT -5
Wasn't that in retaliation for what he did to Angle? No, Puder had heat for other reasons... 1)He was very cocky 2)He always had an entourage with him 3)He legit got a $1 million contract and was making a lot more than most of the wrestlers at that time. From what I understand Angle was pissed that Puder put him in the keylock, but once it was done it was done. Angle didn't get pissed until Puder started using Angle to get himself over in MMA. yeah I imagine selling a shirt with "I hurt Kurt" on it would piss a guy off.
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Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Jan 28, 2015 14:39:30 GMT -5
Paying dues is in the old mentality of the business. Did Cena, Orton, Batista etc pay their dues? They did. They didn't grind on the indies for a decade, but in WWE, they started at the bottom and worked their way up.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 28, 2015 17:10:44 GMT -5
Paying your dues isn't some outdated mindset as folks want to believe. Every field has a point to got to do your shit work before acceptance. I'm not even talking about hazing or ribs either. When I went out into the fleet, all of the new guys did the crappiest jobs on the boat to prove your worth. If you can handle the bullshit without losing it, people will know they can depend and trust you. I did countless trash details. I worked in the galley for 3 months. I id jobs that a normal person would quit before doing (Try babysitting violent, suicidal drunks until they sober up enough to send elsewhere). But once I prove that I was worthy, things changed for the better for the most part. Supervisors moved me to better job positions. I moved up the ranks via advancements. I eventually became in charge of other people who looked towards for leadership and support. Pro wrestling is no different.
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NOwave
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,735
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Post by NOwave on Jan 28, 2015 17:46:14 GMT -5
This is the answer. The concept of “paying your dues” is a holdover from the old territory days when you were expected to work for several years as an opener, ("curtain jerker”) often in several different promotions in different parts of the country to hone your skills, prove you could draw, and prove you were worth paying top dollar for. Then you would start getting hired for Main event spots.
That doesn’t really apply in the current era because there are no territories. You just about have to learn through the WWE system, if you want to work in the WWE. They wont send you anywhere else to “learn to work heel” for example. (which was common in the old days) Think about Michael Hayes and Terry Gordy, for example. In 1978 they debuted on TV in Memphis, after working in minor independents in Mississippi and Alabama. There was clearly talent there, but they were very green and hadn’t proven that they could draw on a bigger stage. Jerry Jarrett used them for awhile in Memphis and then helped them go to Mid-South (where promoter Bill Watts put Buddy Rogers with them) and then to Georgia in 1981, where they really began to shine on WTBS TV, which had perhaps the largest audience for wrestling at the time.
They (WWE) watch you work from the beginning. If they feel that a guy can draw money, they may move him up very quickly.(Reigns and others) If not, they cut you loose pretty quickly.
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Glitch
King Koopa
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,717
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Post by Glitch on Jan 28, 2015 18:21:24 GMT -5
If an employee is qualified for a job, then that should be all there is to it.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 28, 2015 18:26:11 GMT -5
Paying your dues isn't some outdated mindset as folks want to believe. Every field has a point to got to do your shit work before acceptance. I'm not even talking about hazing or ribs either. When I went out into the fleet, all of the new guys did the crappiest jobs on the boat to prove your worth. If you can handle the bullshit without losing it, people will know they can depend and trust you. I did countless trash details. I worked in the galley for 3 months. I id jobs that a normal person would quit before doing (Try babysitting violent, suicidal drunks until they sober up enough to send elsewhere). But once I prove that I was worthy, things changed for the better for the most part. Supervisors moved me to better job positions. I moved up the ranks via advancements. I eventually became in charge of other people who looked towards for leadership and support. Pro wrestling is no different. It's a lot different. If you sign a talent you have big intentions for, you don't waste time making him do jobs, intentionally booking him into bad angles to see how he handles it, and other bullshit. You make him look strong right from day one. Presentation and image is everything.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 28, 2015 18:40:03 GMT -5
Paying your dues isn't some outdated mindset as folks want to believe. Every field has a point to got to do your shit work before acceptance. I'm not even talking about hazing or ribs either. When I went out into the fleet, all of the new guys did the crappiest jobs on the boat to prove your worth. If you can handle the bullshit without losing it, people will know they can depend and trust you. I did countless trash details. I worked in the galley for 3 months. I id jobs that a normal person would quit before doing (Try babysitting violent, suicidal drunks until they sober up enough to send elsewhere). But once I prove that I was worthy, things changed for the better for the most part. Supervisors moved me to better job positions. I moved up the ranks via advancements. I eventually became in charge of other people who looked towards for leadership and support. Pro wrestling is no different. It's a lot different. If you sign a talent you have big intentions for, you don't waste time making him do jobs, intentionally booking him into bad angles to see how he handles it, and other bullshit. You make him look strong right from day one. Presentation and image is everything. Not true. Big Van Vader spent his early career in AWA as Leon White getting the shit kicked out of him by Brody, Hansen, and the Crusher on a nightly basis. Ric Flair did jobber duty until he got to the Carolinas and still did it before he finally got a real push. Even then, he lost to vets. Give someone everything on the platter, they became spoiled. You want to make sure the person you are trusting as the future and breadwinner of the company can handle the load. Isn't one of the main complaints of folks about Roman Reigns is he haven't paid his dues and getting pushed too soon? You know who else got question on that? Kurt Angle. His first WWF year was both fans and wrestlers saying he was too green for the main event. Haven't proved himself. Didn't pay his dues. Getting pushed over more worthy wrestlers.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Jan 28, 2015 18:41:19 GMT -5
"Paying your dues" is basically a way for independent companies to excuse bad behaviour. "You're not getting paid because you're still paying your dues" "You're getting stiffed because you're still paying your dues" "You have to sleep on the floor of this motel room because you're still paying your dues" "Don't talk to this guy all day just to mess with him. He hasn't paid his dues yet" There are some absolutely horrifying stories about guys having to pay their dues back in the day. If I could like this post fifty times, I would. "Pay your dues, kid!" is carnie bullshit at it's worst.
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Mochi Lone Wolf
Fry's dog Seymour
Development through Destruction.
Posts: 24,038
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Jan 28, 2015 18:50:34 GMT -5
"Paying their dues" is overgrown frat-boy bullshit. Nothing more.
If a guy is over and is making the company money, no one gives a damn about "paying dues" to "dis business" or whatever carny vernacular. I swear, wrestling at times sounds like a cult.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 84,908
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Post by chrom on Jan 28, 2015 18:53:47 GMT -5
Paying your dues is a concept I find to be created by those who were over the hill and refusing to admit their time was over and so made it up to ensure they can stay in the spotlight just a few more seconds at the expense of other talent.
Look at Hogan at BFG 2011, Roode is all set to have the biggest moment of his career by defeating Angle only for Hogan minutes before the show to say "No, he's not ready." All because he didn't want his stinker of a match to be shown up and the spotlight taken off him.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 28, 2015 19:55:37 GMT -5
Wasn't that in retaliation for what he did to Angle? No, Puder had heat for other reasons.... He didn't let the dogs out.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 28, 2015 19:58:06 GMT -5
Paying dues is in the old mentality of the business. Did Cena, Orton, Batista etc pay their dues? Cena was an indies wrestler before he was in WWE. He had a sweet cyborg/terminator gimmick called the Prototype. On the topic, wasn't it true that someone (probably HHH) convinced them to nix an angle where "Ruthless Aggression" Cena got to slap Vince because he wasn't "ready"?
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 28, 2015 20:06:01 GMT -5
The "pay your dues" thing brings to mind for me what would be spouted out due to paranoia during the MNW, and then the inVasion. Like an excuse not to push someone from another company. It's right up/down there with the "he needs to learn how to work" line.
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BorneAgain
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,297
Member is Online
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Post by BorneAgain on Jan 28, 2015 20:08:50 GMT -5
This concept is begging for a pair of monster heels called the Dues who offer rookie wrestlers help against other talent in exchange for large amounts of money or else they'll beat their ass.
"Either way, you're paying some Dues."
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 28, 2015 20:11:50 GMT -5
This concept is begging for a pair of monster heels called the Dues who offer rookie wrestlers help against other talent in exchange for large amounts of money or else they'll beat their ass. "Either way, you're paying some Dues." Vinny Ru, Where Are You? ?? /They must also call their agency the Dues' International Collection Klub.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 28, 2015 20:27:16 GMT -5
It's a lot different. If you sign a talent you have big intentions for, you don't waste time making him do jobs, intentionally booking him into bad angles to see how he handles it, and other bullshit. You make him look strong right from day one. Presentation and image is everything. Not true. Big Van Vader spent his early career in AWA as Leon White getting the shit kicked out of him by Brody, Hansen, and the Crusher on a nightly basis. Ric Flair did jobber duty until he got to the Carolinas and still did it before he finally got a real push. Even then, he lost to vets. Give someone everything on the platter, they became spoiled. You want to make sure the person you are trusting as the future and breadwinner of the company can handle the load. Isn't one of the main complaints of folks about Roman Reigns is he haven't paid his dues and getting pushed too soon? You know who else got question on that? Kurt Angle. His first WWF year was both fans and wrestlers saying he was too green for the main event. Haven't proved himself. Didn't pay his dues. Getting pushed over more worthy wrestlers. There's a difference between gaining experience and being subjected to hazing.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 28, 2015 20:42:40 GMT -5
Not true. Big Van Vader spent his early career in AWA as Leon White getting the shit kicked out of him by Brody, Hansen, and the Crusher on a nightly basis. Ric Flair did jobber duty until he got to the Carolinas and still did it before he finally got a real push. Even then, he lost to vets. Give someone everything on the platter, they became spoiled. You want to make sure the person you are trusting as the future and breadwinner of the company can handle the load. Isn't one of the main complaints of folks about Roman Reigns is he haven't paid his dues and getting pushed too soon? You know who else got question on that? Kurt Angle. His first WWF year was both fans and wrestlers saying he was too green for the main event. Haven't proved himself. Didn't pay his dues. Getting pushed over more worthy wrestlers. There's a difference between gaining experience and being subjected to hazing. See, that's the part y'all are not getting. Paying your dues is different from hazing. It's hazing if you get your eyebrows shaved or heat rub put in your jock strap. Paying dues is putting up and taking down the ring or driving the vets around to shows. You can pay dues without hazing being involve.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 20:43:08 GMT -5
Does it help fan perception when perceived favorite wrestlers or any new wrestlers come in and "pay their dues" to the business. Their is major backlash on Reigns right now because he isn't ready. Sure he hasn't payed it as a singles star yet but he has been involved in crazy matches in his career this far. One wrestler I remember in particular that was showed his "toughness" is Orton in the match between him and Mick. I think fans gave him a little more respect that day and it def helped him in the long run. What is your favorite memories of wrestlers paying their dues and what's your opinion on it. You've confused some things. Not being ready is not the same as Not paying your dues."Not being ready" implies that someone needs more practical experience. "Not paying your dues" implies that someone doesn't deserve a spot because they haven't worked as hard or spent as much time doing something as their peers. It's a load of bullshit to be honest. People aren't saying Reigns needs more time because he hasn't had to endure the hardships that others have had to "earn" his spot. People are saying he needs more time because he kinda sucks and they think (or hope) that he'll become better with time. EDIT: I guess Bad News is saying that Reigns hasn't paid his dues... but either way that is NOT the reason *most* are saying that he "needs more time".
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