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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 28, 2015 20:53:26 GMT -5
I always saw paying dues as the time, the miles and the struggle of living the life, similar to a starving artist. Hazing is Hazing and nobody should have to deal with someone else's bullshit. However, I do respect a wrestler more when they have gone thru the "paying dues" method. It's like what Jay and Mark Briscoe said in one promo against WGTT, if you depended on them to set up the ring, there wouldn't be a show. I respect the person who takes time to noticeably perfect their craft, rather than rushing to the main stage. Setting up the ring and perfecting your craft are unrelated, unless your craft is setting up rings. If "paying dues" means you help set up the ring, then it's just another term for "we'll use you for free labor." If it means that you struggle, then wrestling promoters aren't paying you well enough to be comfortable. It's never not bullshit.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 28, 2015 20:54:24 GMT -5
There's a difference between gaining experience and being subjected to hazing. See, that's the part y'all are not getting. Paying your dues is different from hazing. It's hazing if you get your eyebrows shaved or heat rub put in your jock strap. Paying dues is putting up and taking down the ring or driving the vets around to shows. You can pay dues without hazing being involve. In wrestling, the two are often one and the same.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 28, 2015 20:56:07 GMT -5
See, that's the part y'all are not getting. Paying your dues is different from hazing. It's hazing if you get your eyebrows shaved or heat rub put in your jock strap. Paying dues is putting up and taking down the ring or driving the vets around to shows. You can pay dues without hazing being involve. In wrestling, the two are often one and the same. Why not ask some of the wrestlers on this forum about that? I'm sure they can give a better answer than anyone not in the business.
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Post by Chip Chipperson on Jan 28, 2015 21:16:37 GMT -5
I think there is a lot of overreacting going on here. A wrestler (or anyone in any industry) can pay their dues without being hazed. Take wrestling out of it and let's say my career, journalism. Very, very few get hired right out of college to go cover the NFL. Most go work for a Podunk paper or intern at a mid-size paper, cover high schools and junior colleges, eventually hone their skills to a point they can move up to bigger and better beats. If I'm HHH and I sign an 18-year-old kid with no training, he's going to the training center. He's going to run laps, do pushups, hit the weights, etc. to get his conditioning up. Once he's ready, he'll go to NXT then Raw. That's paying his dues. Hazing is very common though. It happens on the indies a lot where the local independent promoter will train you up and then have you working. Setting the ring up, helping out as ref for the night or on the merchandise table is paying your dues but when you finally get into the ring and you're an 18 year old kid and you have a 25 year old "vet" stiffing you as hard as he can for no reason it does get into that hazing territory. Hell, take a look at what Tony Kozina did to that 16-17 year old kid a couple years back. The kid said something about wrestling being a work on his Twitter and Kozina took offense to that and beat the shit out of the kid in front of 100 people whilst screaming at him. Kozina is well into his 40's and acted like a child in the name of "respecting the business" It's not as bad as it once was. You no longer have guys breaking other guys legs just to see if they'd come back but I don't think anyone should be hit for real or treated like shit simply because they're new.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jan 28, 2015 21:46:57 GMT -5
Also think that it goes back to the days when any strongman or football player thought that they could succeed in pro wrestling because they were successful athletes, and pro wrestling is an entirely different animal.
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Post by Sparvid on Jan 28, 2015 22:37:48 GMT -5
It's a lot different. If you sign a talent you have big intentions for, you don't waste time making him do jobs, intentionally booking him into bad angles to see how he handles it, and other bullshit. You make him look strong right from day one. Presentation and image is everything. Not true. Big Van Vader spent his early career in AWA as Leon White getting the shit kicked out of him by Brody, Hansen, and the Crusher on a nightly basis. Ric Flair did jobber duty until he got to the Carolinas and still did it before he finally got a real push. Even then, he lost to vets. Give someone everything on the platter, they became spoiled. You want to make sure the person you are trusting as the future and breadwinner of the company can handle the load. Isn't one of the main complaints of folks about Roman Reigns is he haven't paid his dues and getting pushed too soon? You know who else got question on that? Kurt Angle. His first WWF year was both fans and wrestlers saying he was too green for the main event. Haven't proved himself. Didn't pay his dues. Getting pushed over more worthy wrestlers. It's been awhile since I saw Big Show's documentary, but I believe that he said that being put immediately in main events in WCW without having to work his way up like the other guys was a reason he became lazy and content in WWF and consequently sent down to OVW.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 28, 2015 22:39:42 GMT -5
Not true. Big Van Vader spent his early career in AWA as Leon White getting the shit kicked out of him by Brody, Hansen, and the Crusher on a nightly basis. Ric Flair did jobber duty until he got to the Carolinas and still did it before he finally got a real push. Even then, he lost to vets. Give someone everything on the platter, they became spoiled. You want to make sure the person you are trusting as the future and breadwinner of the company can handle the load. Isn't one of the main complaints of folks about Roman Reigns is he haven't paid his dues and getting pushed too soon? You know who else got question on that? Kurt Angle. His first WWF year was both fans and wrestlers saying he was too green for the main event. Haven't proved himself. Didn't pay his dues. Getting pushed over more worthy wrestlers. It's been awhile since I saw Big Show's documentary, but I believe that he said that being put immediately in main events in WCW without having to work his way up like the other guys was a reason he became lazy and content in WWF and consequently sent down to OVW. He still looks lazy.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jan 29, 2015 0:17:19 GMT -5
Hazing is very common though. It happens on the indies a lot where the local independent promoter will train you up and then have you working. Setting the ring up, helping out as ref for the night or on the merchandise table is paying your dues but when you finally get into the ring and you're an 18 year old kid and you have a 25 year old "vet" stiffing you as hard as he can for no reason it does get into that hazing territory. Hell, take a look at what Tony Kozina did to that 16-17 year old kid a couple years back. The kid said something about wrestling being a work on his Twitter and Kozina took offense to that and beat the shit out of the kid in front of 100 people whilst screaming at him. Kozina is well into his 40's and acted like a child in the name of "respecting the business" It's not as bad as it once was. You no longer have guys breaking other guys legs just to see if they'd come back but I don't think anyone should be hit for real or treated like shit simply because they're new. I never denied hazing exists. I simply said one could "pay his dues" without being hazed. I trained with an indy fed for about two months before getting hurt and punking out but during those two months, I set up the ring, filmed matches, helped set up TV equipment, build a spot table, hell, even let the booker bounce ideas off me for the show. I also took about a hundred bumps (hell, probably double that) in training one night and kept coming back for more and that went a long way in me being accepted. Yes, one was a ladder and a few were off the top rope. Hell, I even took a chair shot to the back that night (in fairness, so did the trainer). But I never felt I was being hazed because there was never any "hey, watch this!" and some of the more experienced workers were getting in the ring, too, so I took it as a badge of honor that they were bragging on me. (One even bought dinner afterwards. It was shitty Whataburger, but, hey, free meal!) They're making you do work without paying you and targeting you to do pointless and painful things, because you were new. Do people not know what hazing means?
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 29, 2015 0:32:31 GMT -5
It's dumb from both a fan and an in ring perspective. Earning your spot does not equal paying dues. From a fan's perspective, all that should matter is being entertained and not getting caught up in anything else.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 29, 2015 0:42:27 GMT -5
It's dumb from both a fan and an in ring perspective. Earning your spot does not equal paying dues. From a fan's perspective, all that should matter is being entertained and not getting caught up in anything else. Yea to bad about the fan's perspective part it is hardly seen that way.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 30, 2015 9:12:47 GMT -5
I don't give the slightest shit about paying dues. Brock paid no dues. He arrived and he was f***ing amazing. I don't care what dues he's paid. Goldberg paid no dues. Angle paid no dues. Rock paid no dues.
Reigns has arrived and is mediocre as f*** (deliberately ironic there). I don't care what dues he's paid either.
If you show up and you can go and you get it, I couldn't care less about what dues you've paid.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 30, 2015 10:11:00 GMT -5
There are two things that should matter in wrestling, being able to work a good, safe match and being able to form a connection with the audience that will make people want to see you work in the role you're given. Reigns can work an okay match, but his push bypassed the whole building a connection with the fanbase thing and he's not alone in that.
Forming a connection with the fanbase is something that needs time and work, a spell in the midcard until everything clicks like the Rock, Austin, Bryan, you can't just declare someone the future and expect the audience just to love them and if you try and force the issue and put the world title on them in spite of the fans, you're going to face an uphill battle getting anyone to see them chase the title in future as someone 'finally' winning the title is less of a big deal when they were given the belt a year after their debut as a solo performer.
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Glitch
King Koopa
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,717
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Post by Glitch on Jan 30, 2015 18:06:13 GMT -5
Reminds me of back when I heard this one dude talking about being given a management position upon being hired by a company. An old worker there got mad and said "I've been working here for 20 years and never been promoted to that position!"
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 30, 2015 22:53:35 GMT -5
I don't give the slightest shit about paying dues. Brock paid no dues. He arrived and he was f***ing amazing. I don't care what dues he's paid. Goldberg paid no dues. Angle paid no dues. Rock paid no dues. Reigns has arrived and is mediocre as f*** (deliberately ironic there). I don't care what dues he's paid either. If you show up and you can go and you get it, I couldn't care less about what dues you've paid. Brock paid no dues because if a shithead like JBL or Bob Holly tried any of that locker room bullshit with him, he'd tear them a new ass.
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Scott Parker
Trap-Jaw
some wrestler you've never heard of
Posts: 264
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Post by Scott Parker on Jan 31, 2015 11:48:16 GMT -5
"Paying your dues" is basically a way for independent companies to excuse bad behaviour. Yes and no. I'll agree with you here, if the guy is a fully trained wrestler working on a show. Most training schools usually have a promotion attached to it or work closely with another promoter or two. Trainees doing work at shows such as ring crew, security, Reffing, etc. is part of the price of training. Once a trainer considers you fully trained there is no excuse for not getting your agreed upon pay. Yeah, not a fan of this one, but it happens. Once I was in a Royal Rumble type match at my home promotion. I was the 2nd man in. Guy #1 tells me in the back that he likes to work stiff. No big deal, I thought because I had worked with several stiff guys before. Supposedly he asked another guy before talking to me, which guy he was starting with. The other guy points to me and is then told, "I'm beating the s*** out of him." When it's time for the match, I slide into the ring and am immediately meet with stiff stomps. Okay, nothing I can't handle. Punches. Stiff, but not dangerous. Senton splash. Oof, that knocked the wind out of me. Oh good, here comes one of my trainers. He starts helping the guy then holds my arms behind my back and tells the other guy to go up top. He then whispers to me, "Move, kid." He wasn't pleased with the guy taking liberties on the "green kid," but nothing was broken, so I sucked it up and moved on. It happens though, but we're supposed to be big, tough boys. If we can't take a little bit every now and then, why are we here? Five guys splitting a single bed hotel room, the low man on the totem pole gets the least desirable accommodations. That's how things usually work in the real world. Harmless. My friends in high school did similar things to each other. Yes, different times. Different rules.
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Post by Chip Chipperson on Jan 31, 2015 16:42:04 GMT -5
"Paying your dues" is basically a way for independent companies to excuse bad behaviour. Yes and no. I'll agree with you here, if the guy is a fully trained wrestler working on a show. Most training schools usually have a promotion attached to it or work closely with another promoter or two. Trainees doing work at shows such as ring crew, security, Reffing, etc. is part of the price of training. Once a trainer considers you fully trained there is no excuse for not getting your agreed upon pay. Yeah, not a fan of this one, but it happens. Once I was in a Royal Rumble type match at my home promotion. I was the 2nd man in. Guy #1 tells me in the back that he likes to work stiff. No big deal, I thought because I had worked with several stiff guys before. Supposedly he asked another guy before talking to me, which guy he was starting with. The other guy points to me and is then told, "I'm beating the s*** out of him." When it's time for the match, I slide into the ring and am immediately meet with stiff stomps. Okay, nothing I can't handle. Punches. Stiff, but not dangerous. Senton splash. Oof, that knocked the wind out of me. Oh good, here comes one of my trainers. He starts helping the guy then holds my arms behind my back and tells the other guy to go up top. He then whispers to me, "Move, kid." He wasn't pleased with the guy taking liberties on the "green kid," but nothing was broken, so I sucked it up and moved on. It happens though, but we're supposed to be big, tough boys. If we can't take a little bit every now and then, why are we here? Five guys splitting a single bed hotel room, the low man on the totem pole gets the least desirable accommodations. That's how things usually work in the real world. Harmless. My friends in high school did similar things to each other. Yes, different times. Different rules. I'm sure you know that the wrestling industry is different to every other job in the world. Hypothetically if I were to go to a conference for my job and I was staying overnight the suggestion that I sleep on the floor would probably be classed as an unprofessional request by most people. If my workmates decided to just ignore me for the day that would be classed as unprofessional on their part and likely would result in a HR issue. In regards to pay I have no issue with the first 12 months being unpaid work but once you start building up a little fanbase and start going on the road to make events then you deserve financial compensation and it should be more than 20-50 bucks but a lot of promotions don't do that. There is a wrestling promotion close to me who not only neglect to pay wrestlers but the wrestlers actually have to pay 1200 dollars a year towards "insurance" to wrestle there. The promotion doesn't draw terribly either so the performers shouldn't be paying the bills but they do and it's wrong.
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