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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on May 2, 2015 1:29:03 GMT -5
Yeah but there's two big factors that are overlooked with that example. 1. Some wrestlers are total naturals and develop much faster than others. You got guys like the Rock, who were tearing it up at Wrestlemania with like less than 3 years in the business. On the other end of the spectrum, you got guys like Cena who really didn't start to get good until 2008/9. Up until that point, the quality of his matches were dependent on the guy he was facing and all the heat that his "controversial" status got him. 2. Big match experience. Sasha is used to working long matches down in NXT so it's no shock that she's so good. Roman, on the other hand, has had 4 PPV singles matches. That's barely a handful and there's a world of difference between a TV match and a top match on PPV, especially if you are gonna be feuding for the world title. There's where guys are really gonna grow, when the spotlight is on bright and you are a major part of a PPV. That's how Cena got good. He got big match experience by working with guys who could carry him. Having a f***ton of TV matches with washed up dudes like Show and Kane is gonna do absolutely nothing for him and shouldn't be used as a measure of his potential (or anybody's potential, honestly). Sasha hasn't had all that many big matches either, and it's not like she's working against extremely established veteran talents. Her best work has been with Charlotte, who's been around for like 2 years. Those Takeover specials only happen so often. Other than that, she's working normal TV matches and house shows, just like Roman does all the time. He's on the main roster working 4 shows week, that is plenty of time to improve. He is definitely stuck working with crappy people as of late, but that hasn't always been the case. It's great that Cena got good like 6 years into his run, but damn, that's a long time, and he was already on top for most of that. That really shouldn't be the norm, get pushed to the moon and get good enough to justify it later. What I think it is, and now it's maybe changing because he's in this spot and the fans are giving him a rough go, is that Reigns got good at a few things and got his ass-kissed by the office and thought that's all he needed to know how to do. If you get rewarded when your work isn't where it should be, why would it get better? With Cena, it wasn't really a case of "get pushed to the moon and get good enough to justify it later." I was referring solely to his in-ring work. A lot of people don't seem to remember this because he's such a cornball now but Cena was fire on the mic during that period. His in-ring work wasn't to the level of a main eventer but he was getting bigger reactions than pretty much anybody on the roster when he got the rocket strapped on him. Obviously, Roman is a different scenario but I just thought I'd bring that up. While Sasha hasn't had a ton of big match experience either, that goes back to my point about wrestlers being naturals. Her and Charlotte picked wrestling up ridiculously quick. It also helps that she's facing a lot of the same girls and thus, is used to working with them. There's also kind of a huge difference between working with girls like Charlotte, who's also very young and hungry, and working with deadweight like Kane, who is beyond washed up and hasn't had a good match in god knows how long. Who else has Roman really worked with on TV other than those two goofs Kane and Show? Rollins and Bray (who, frankly, isn't a ring general himself) are the only two that come to mind. I just really don't like the idea of comparing wrestlers in that way because everybody is different. Everybody has different learning curves and things they are good at. It's not a fair comparison because everybody has different tools and are placed in different environments to grow. Obviously, some dudes just straight up suck but some people are late bloomers. To your last point, I think it's the exact opposite. Roman got thrown in the deep end when he clearly wasn't ready so now he's busting his ass to play catch up and work with the utter garbage the writing staff gives him. They try to "protect" him but they couldn't protect a bowl of jello with their booking style. Roman's a guy that requires patience and that's something WWE doesn't have anymore. |
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SUPES
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Post by SUPES on May 2, 2015 1:34:32 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 1:44:55 GMT -5
Sasha hasn't had all that many big matches either, and it's not like she's working against extremely established veteran talents. Her best work has been with Charlotte, who's been around for like 2 years. Those Takeover specials only happen so often. Other than that, she's working normal TV matches and house shows, just like Roman does all the time. He's on the main roster working 4 shows week, that is plenty of time to improve. He is definitely stuck working with crappy people as of late, but that hasn't always been the case. It's great that Cena got good like 6 years into his run, but damn, that's a long time, and he was already on top for most of that. That really shouldn't be the norm, get pushed to the moon and get good enough to justify it later. What I think it is, and now it's maybe changing because he's in this spot and the fans are giving him a rough go, is that Reigns got good at a few things and got his ass-kissed by the office and thought that's all he needed to know how to do. If you get rewarded when your work isn't where it should be, why would it get better? With Cena, it wasn't really a case of "get pushed to the moon and get good enough to justify it later." I was referring soley to his in-ring work. A lot of people don't seem to remember this because he's such a cornball now but Cena was fire on the mic during that period. His in-ring work wasn't to the level of a main eventer but he was getting bigger reactions than pretty much anybody on the roster when he got the rocket strapped on him. Obviously, Roman is a different scenario but I just thought I'd bring that up. While Sasha hasn't had a ton of big match experience either, that goes back to my point about wrestlers being naturals. Her and Charlotte picked wrestling up ridiclously quick. It also helps that she's facing a lot of the same girls and thus, is used to working with them. There's also kind of a huge difference between working with girls like Charlotte, who's also very young and hungry, and working with deadweight like Kane, who is beyond washed up and hasn't had a good match in god knows how long. Who else has Roman really worked with on TV other than those two goofs? Rollins and Bray (who, frankly, isn't a ring general himself) are the only two that come to mind. I just really don't like the idea of comparing wrestlers in that way because everybody is different. Everybody has different learning curves and things they are good at. It's not a fair comparison because everybody has different tools. Obviously, some dudes just straight up suck but some people are late bloomers. To your last point, I think it's the exact opposite. Roman got thrown in the deep end when he clearly wasn't ready so now he's busting his ass to play catch up and work with the utter garbage the writing staff gives him. They try to "protect" him but they couldn't protect a bowl of jello with their booking style. Roman's a guy that requires patience and that's something WWE doesn't have anymore. I didn't see Cena during that period (I couldn't!), but I'm sure he was over as hell and great on the mic. Not saying he shouldn't have been pushed, I just think that using him for a norm in terms of how much experience it takes for someone to excel in the ring doesn't work, because he took a while. And, to me, it was because he didn't really have to be good in the ring, he was good at other things and was already on top. He turned it up in the ring in order to stay on top, and it has worked out for him. I think it's pretty fair to compare two wrestlers who started at the same time, especially when the one that isn't as good is the one with the rocket strapped to his ass (not that Sasha is underpushed or anything, it's just not like THAT). Like Cena, it's not just ring work either. Roman's promos and general character work are basic at best, poor at worst. That's on the creative side too, of course, but it's also on the wrestler. Sasha excels at her whole deal, so she has a clear-cut direction. Roman's still trying to figure out what he's good at, so his characterization changes weekly. The only consistent thing is him running in and superman punching and spearing everyone, because he's good at that. To bottom line what I'm trying to say, I just don't think Roman Reigns is where he should be after 5 years in the game, especially for someone getting such a push. There's always reasons, and there's varying levels of validity to those reasons, but the end result is a guy who WWE is hellbent on being the man, hasn't lost a singles match clean in his whole career, and he's not even that good. A work in progress is fine, and I admit I wouldn't have any issue with his progress if he wasn't pushed so hard, but I also think he's more of a project than the average wrestler. |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on May 2, 2015 2:03:15 GMT -5
With Cena, it wasn't really a case of "get pushed to the moon and get good enough to justify it later." I was referring soley to his in-ring work. A lot of people don't seem to remember this because he's such a cornball now but Cena was fire on the mic during that period. His in-ring work wasn't to the level of a main eventer but he was getting bigger reactions than pretty much anybody on the roster when he got the rocket strapped on him. Obviously, Roman is a different scenario but I just thought I'd bring that up. While Sasha hasn't had a ton of big match experience either, that goes back to my point about wrestlers being naturals. Her and Charlotte picked wrestling up ridiclously quick. It also helps that she's facing a lot of the same girls and thus, is used to working with them. There's also kind of a huge difference between working with girls like Charlotte, who's also very young and hungry, and working with deadweight like Kane, who is beyond washed up and hasn't had a good match in god knows how long. Who else has Roman really worked with on TV other than those two goofs? Rollins and Bray (who, frankly, isn't a ring general himself) are the only two that come to mind. I just really don't like the idea of comparing wrestlers in that way because everybody is different. Everybody has different learning curves and things they are good at. It's not a fair comparison because everybody has different tools. Obviously, some dudes just straight up suck but some people are late bloomers. To your last point, I think it's the exact opposite. Roman got thrown in the deep end when he clearly wasn't ready so now he's busting his ass to play catch up and work with the utter garbage the writing staff gives him. They try to "protect" him but they couldn't protect a bowl of jello with their booking style. Roman's a guy that requires patience and that's something WWE doesn't have anymore. I didn't see Cena during that period (I couldn't!), but I'm sure he was over as hell and great on the mic. Not saying he shouldn't have been pushed, I just think that using him for a norm in terms of how much experience it takes for someone to excel in the ring doesn't work, because he took a while. And, to me, it was because he didn't really have to be good in the ring, he was good at other things and was already on top. He turned it up in the ring in order to stay on top, and it has worked out for him. I think it's pretty fair to compare two wrestlers who started at the same time, especially when the one that isn't as good is the one with the rocket strapped to his ass (not that Sasha is underpushed or anything, it's just not like THAT). Like Cena, it's not just ring work either. Roman's promos and general character work are basic at best, poor at worst. That's on the creative side too, of course, but it's also on the wrestler. Sasha excels at her whole deal, so she has a clear-cut direction. Roman's still trying to figure out what he's good at, so his characterization changes weekly. The only consistent thing is him running in and superman punching and spearing everyone, because he's good at that. To bottom line what I'm trying to say, I just don't think Roman Reigns is where he should be after 5 years in the game, especially for someone getting such a push. There's always reasons, and there's varying levels of validity to those reasons, but the end result is a guy who WWE is hellbent on being the man, hasn't lost a singles match clean in his whole career, and he's not even that good. A work in progress is fine, and I admit I wouldn't have any issue with his progress if he wasn't pushed so hard, but I also think he's more of a project than the average wrestler. I see your point and it's a fair one. Personally, Roman is about where I'd expect him to be considering he's been a singles guy on the main roster for well under a year and is trying to find himself. It's not like he f***s stuff up, he's a perfectly competent wrestler. My thing is that I just don't see how it's his fault if he ends up as a total flop. If he fails, that's on WWE for pushing him too fast and pissing away potential money that WWE Champion Roman Reigns could earn them in 2017 because he got exposed as a main event talent here in 2015. They highlighted his weaknesses by putting him in such a prominent position when he should be finding himself in the mid card. Like you mentioned, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't really mind Roman if he was feuding for the IC title right now. |
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JoDaNa1281
Crow T. Robot
Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender. #BLM
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on May 2, 2015 2:06:40 GMT -5
I only saw the last two matches and he's being way too generous to both of them. He's definitely being generous to the cage match. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:07:56 GMT -5
According to Mark Henry in an interview this week, he doesn't think Reigns believes in himself yet. You all remember when reports came out about the night after Raw and he was being cheered? Someone in attendance said Reigns looked surprised and happy they liked him. I actually feel bad for him considering, I'm sure, he now realizes it'll take a lot to be "the guy" and at the rate they're pushing him and how they're pushing him, it might fail. He seems to be finding himself still.
Here's exactly what Henry said.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:14:31 GMT -5
I didn't see Cena during that period (I couldn't!), but I'm sure he was over as hell and great on the mic. Not saying he shouldn't have been pushed, I just think that using him for a norm in terms of how much experience it takes for someone to excel in the ring doesn't work, because he took a while. And, to me, it was because he didn't really have to be good in the ring, he was good at other things and was already on top. He turned it up in the ring in order to stay on top, and it has worked out for him. I think it's pretty fair to compare two wrestlers who started at the same time, especially when the one that isn't as good is the one with the rocket strapped to his ass (not that Sasha is underpushed or anything, it's just not like THAT). Like Cena, it's not just ring work either. Roman's promos and general character work are basic at best, poor at worst. That's on the creative side too, of course, but it's also on the wrestler. Sasha excels at her whole deal, so she has a clear-cut direction. Roman's still trying to figure out what he's good at, so his characterization changes weekly. The only consistent thing is him running in and superman punching and spearing everyone, because he's good at that. To bottom line what I'm trying to say, I just don't think Roman Reigns is where he should be after 5 years in the game, especially for someone getting such a push. There's always reasons, and there's varying levels of validity to those reasons, but the end result is a guy who WWE is hellbent on being the man, hasn't lost a singles match clean in his whole career, and he's not even that good. A work in progress is fine, and I admit I wouldn't have any issue with his progress if he wasn't pushed so hard, but I also think he's more of a project than the average wrestler. I see your point and it's a fair one. Personally, Roman is about where I'd expect him to be considering he's been a singles guy on the main roster for well under a year and is trying to find himself. It's not like he f***s stuff up, he's a perfectly competent wrestler. My thing is that I just don't see how it's his fault if he ends up as a total flop. If he fails, that's on WWE for pushing him too fast and pissing away potential money that WWE Champion Roman Reigns could earn them in 2017 because he got exposed as a main event talent here in 2015. They highlighted his weaknesses by putting him in such a prominent position when he should be finding himself in the mid card. Like you mentioned, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't really mind Roman if he was feuding for the IC title right now. Yeah, it's just that he's in my face so much, I can't help but see his flaws and have them drive me crazy. And I will admit bias here, because I flat out do not like Roman Reigns as a performer. I think I have valid reasons for not liking his work, but the combination of my dislike and his uber-presence makes me more critical of him than may be warranted. If this initial push flops, it's definitely on WWE. But if he never substantially improves at his craft, that's on him imo. It's sort of like with Alex Riley, and Catch Us defending him, saying how it's not his fault he's not any good. That can be true for a while, but in the end, it comes down to you. I just hope it's not another Chris Masters or Drew McIntyre situation, where the light really comes on but it's too late and he's trapped on Superstars forever. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:18:14 GMT -5
According to Mark Henry in an interview this week, he doesn't think Reigns believes in himself yet. You all remember when reports came out about the night after Raw and he was being cheered? Someone in attendance said Reigns looked surprised and happy they liked him. I actually feel bad for him considering, I'm sure, he now realizes it'll take a lot to be "the guy" and at the rate they're pushing him and how they're pushing him, it might fail. He seems to be finding himself still. Here's exactly what Henry said. So all this time he's been saying, "B'lee dat!" to himself? |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 2:24:08 GMT -5
According to Mark Henry in an interview this week, he doesn't think Reigns believes in himself yet. You all remember when reports came out about the night after Raw and he was being cheered? Someone in attendance said Reigns looked surprised and happy they liked him. I actually feel bad for him considering, I'm sure, he now realizes it'll take a lot to be "the guy" and at the rate they're pushing him and how they're pushing him, it might fail. He seems to be finding himself still. Here's exactly what Henry said. So all this time he's been saying, "B'lee dat!" to himself? I think what happened is that in the beginning, I think Wade Keller told Austin this on on his podcast, Reigns was cocky and said he'd be "the guy" easily, no issues, no one was stopping him. That's how he was. Anyway, after that the crowd turned against him, nothing was working, yada yada. Now we find out that Henry thinks he doesn't believe in himself fully yet. I think the backlash forced him to realize it's not that easy so he's trying to find out how to be "the guy" and stay true to himself. So basically he got a wake-up call when everything f***ed up. |
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on May 2, 2015 2:24:33 GMT -5
I see your point and it's a fair one. Personally, Roman is about where I'd expect him to be considering he's been a singles guy on the main roster for well under a year and is trying to find himself. It's not like he f***s stuff up, he's a perfectly competent wrestler. My thing is that I just don't see how it's his fault if he ends up as a total flop. If he fails, that's on WWE for pushing him too fast and pissing away potential money that WWE Champion Roman Reigns could earn them in 2017 because he got exposed as a main event talent here in 2015. They highlighted his weaknesses by putting him in such a prominent position when he should be finding himself in the mid card. Like you mentioned, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't really mind Roman if he was feuding for the IC title right now. Yeah, it's just that he's in my face so much, I can't help but see his flaws and have them drive me crazy. And I will admit bias here, because I flat out do not like Roman Reigns as a performer. I think I have valid reasons for not liking his work, but the combination of my dislike and his uber-presence makes me more critical of him than may be warranted. If this initial push flops, it's definitely on WWE. But if he never substantially improves at his craft, that's on him imo. It's sort of like with Alex Riley, and Catch Us defending him, saying how it's not his fault he's not any good. That can be true for a while, but in the end, it comes down to you. I just hope it's not another Chris Masters or Drew McIntyre situation, where the light really comes on but it's too late and he's trapped on Superstars forever. Oh no, don't get me wrong. If he's still at this level a year or two from now, that's all on Roman. I was more referring to his credibility as a top guy. Sure, he could get depushed, find himself, and then get re-elevated but it's never gonna be the same if this run fails. The bloom will be off the rose and the chance for him to transcend being your normal top WWE guy will be done, |
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on May 2, 2015 4:37:41 GMT -5
Those guys actually do have great matches with everyone, besides Show. I disagree with that. Bryan's casket match with Kane wasn't very good at all. To Bryan's credit he is an amazing worker and one of the best and rarely has a bad match with anyone. I also consider Bryan the second best wrestler in the world today behind Nakamura. Orton has had multiple matches that were quite lackluster. When he wants to he definitely can hit that next gear but he has had some boring matches that just drag. Lesnar's match last year with Taker was quite horrible except for the shocking finish. Most people on here said that the Mania match with Reigns would stink because Lesnar isn't a ring general and needed a ring general to dictate the match. As Jericho and others said, it takes two people to put on a good match and when someone is in consistently good matches you have to come to the conclusion that he isn't being carried by everyone he is facing. With that said I don't believe Reigns is a good enough performer to be "the man" right now nor do I think the Big Show match was a 4 star match (I'd say a 3 or 3 1/2). I do find he is improving and is starting to look more comfortable in the ring. I also think that based on his performances that he would be OK being the champion right now as long as he has someone experienced to play off of. I don't think he has quite found his voice yet to be "the man". For me, the thing that separates Reigns from many of people on the roster is that he has the "it" factor in that his big matches feel like a big deal. The other is that, to borrow a Vince cliche, he has definitely grabbed the brass ring. The fact that he excelled in a hostile position where many expected and wanted him to fail shows me that he is definitely has something that many lack. I saw Batista crumble and fall apart in front of the ECW crowd and put up a stinker of a match against Show. Lesnar and Goldberg both failed in that same hostile environment. Reigns not only succeeded, but did so in much more hostile environments than they had to endure and on a much bigger stage. |
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Post by The Last Tweener on May 2, 2015 7:12:24 GMT -5
I would give the tag-team match the best rating of the PPV for sure.
I think Ambrose-Harper deserves a higher rating.
4 stars is too high for Reigns-Show in my opinion,
especially knowing that Meltzer himself gave Balor-Neville 4.25 stars.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 9:54:10 GMT -5
I haven't even seen the Reigns/Show match but if someone is rating a Reigns/Show match as 4 stars then that person's opinions need to not be linked here. =P
Or censored out or something, like "Reigns/Big Show? I give it 4 stars" should be filtered to something less offensive because that's way worse than any racial slur.
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Post by Harry The Arrow was Wrong! on May 2, 2015 10:06:25 GMT -5
I'm still shocked that Orton/Reigns was given 4 stars. It was so average and went way too long.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 14:06:43 GMT -5
I'd give ithe show my own star ratings, but it was too forgettable so I can't.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on May 2, 2015 14:21:00 GMT -5
Reigns confirmed as the new Misawa
Imagine if Extreme Rules was held at he budokan, Meltzer would had lost his shit
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Jonathan Michaels
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on May 2, 2015 15:47:34 GMT -5
Speaking of Meltzer overrating matches.....
The ladder match from MITB 14 where Rollins "won" the briefcase is rated a quarter of a star lower than Taker/HBK from WM25 and WM 26.
No.
Just no.
It seems only Punk/Cena from MITB 11 rated five stars since 1997 (Taker/ HBK HIAC).
And I don't know if I can get behind that being better than the two Mania matches between them.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 2, 2015 16:17:18 GMT -5
I have no problem with MITB last year being a ****1/2 match. I thought it was flirting with 5 stars up until the silly finish, which would therefore deduct 1/2. Take away Kane and have it be just Rollins and Ambrose slugging it out on the ladder to a finish and that one would be considered one of the best matches of the past decade.
It's apples and oranges though. Hard to compare a multi-man ladder match of insanity to a classic singles match.
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Jonathan Michaels
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Archduke of Levity
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Post by Jonathan Michaels on May 2, 2015 16:20:38 GMT -5
I think it's a good match, but I don't think it's nearly the best MITB match.
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percymania
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Post by percymania on May 2, 2015 16:42:02 GMT -5
I agree Reigns/Big Show was the best match of the card. I don't care much about star ratings like, I like the name Roman "Four Star" Reigns.
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