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Post by angryfan on Dec 3, 2015 17:52:48 GMT -5
Difference, yes there was the "pushed down our throats" symptom, I agree absolutely. Happened with every top guy, they wre put on that pedestal and kept there. Thing is, they had to get over and do so organically. Cena didn't as generic babyface in tights, Austin didnt' as the ringmaster, Rock sure as shit didn't as Smilin' Rocky Miavia. Then Vince said, or allowed someone to say, "Do what you do", as was customary in the territory days, and it WORKED. Hell, he brought Hogan in the first time as a friggin' racist heel (shine my shoes, boy? really?) but when he said "Do what you did in the AWA, go with it" it worked. You HAVE to allow the artist to be the artist. Dali and Picasso were amazing painters, but if someone stood behind them and constantly screamed, "Paint me a purple gimmick, DAMN IT" would they have reached the status they did as visionaries? Hell no. Roman was getting over organically and still is. He was the member of the Shield that got consistent cheers from the crowd. It wasn't until the Shield broke up and Roman went on his solo run did the mood change. Him cutting John Cena type promos didn't help his cause out either. Roman won't get 100% of the crowd because he "didn't pay his dues" in their eyes which we criticize WWE for making folks do but want it for Reigns. I wouldn't say with Reigns it was so much "dues paying" as it was the same backlash Cena got once he moved to RAW. It wasn't the "he's going over X, and I love X, so boo this man" (although that came later) it was, "Damn it, we've got to change the character, I know this style and this character got you over, now do it all over again, maintain that heat, but do it with this totally new gimmick" WIth Cena, he was the crass, brash, anti-hero almost heel punk bastard who would cut free-styles on people and would brawl and be in your face. Then he moved to RAW and was all "yay kids, I'm Krusty the Marine, salute and respect, kids" and fans went, "Wait a damn minute, we liked you when you were doing the thing that we liked but now you're...not anymore". With Reigns, he was the "say little, kill people" guy. Remember his first promo part with the Shield sit down? "When I have something to say, I'll say it" followed by "I've got something to say, interview over" and he walks out? Short promos, quiet killer, hot tag machine and "I'll die trying to kill you"...THOSE got him over. Then suddenly he starts cutting looney-tunes laced 10 and 15 minute promos, going in long matches when he'd always always been the Robert Gibson in the team, and it just...it was not the same character. You keep his promos short, you make him a guy who just wants to merc people, and who doesn't need to shuck and jive for 10 god damn minutes with the mic, and the crowds eat it up. Because that's more him, that's more his area of skill. A few well placed lines, and then murder bitches. You make him a laughing, joking, 10 minute monologue guy, and he's absolutely dead.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 3, 2015 17:54:02 GMT -5
Difference, yes there was the "pushed down our throats" symptom, I agree absolutely. Happened with every top guy, they wre put on that pedestal and kept there. Thing is, they had to get over and do so organically. Cena didn't as generic babyface in tights, Austin didnt' as the ringmaster, Rock sure as shit didn't as Smilin' Rocky Miavia. Then Vince said, or allowed someone to say, "Do what you do", as was customary in the territory days, and it WORKED. Hell, he brought Hogan in the first time as a friggin' racist heel (shine my shoes, boy? really?) but when he said "Do what you did in the AWA, go with it" it worked. You HAVE to allow the artist to be the artist. Dali and Picasso were amazing painters, but if someone stood behind them and constantly screamed, "Paint me a purple gimmick, DAMN IT" would they have reached the status they did as visionaries? Hell no. Roman was getting over organically and still is. He was the member of the Shield that got consistent cheers from the crowd. It wasn't until the Shield broke up and Roman went on his solo run did the mood change. Him cutting John Cena type promos didn't help his cause out either. Roman won't get 100% of the crowd because he "didn't pay his dues" in their eyes which we criticize WWE for making folks do but want it for Reigns. This ties equally into the other side of it where it's not just Vince McMahon's fault here: There will never be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock because the smarks WON'T LET there be another Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock unless it happens on OUR terms- not Vince McMahon's, not Triple H's, not the "casual fans" or kids, not the mainstream media- OUR terms. Even past the "once the Monster Push Sense tingling" factor, the same point is there- the smarks made it clear- we demand any top hero be a smark darling, and only a smark darling. If WWE is behind it, that naturally doesn't matter- but if the casual fans and kids like it, that ALSO doesn't matter if the smarks don't like the person. If the smarks don't like the person, we will do whatever it takes, including hijacking the show until a smark darling gets to be the star- whether the casual fans and kids care about them or not. This is fine to make new main event names, but it's also a problem because again, to be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock you need more than just pretty suplexes to captivate America- you NEED to be the darling of both the casual fans and the smarks to make it to that level (which CM Punk and Daniel Bryan proved can happen)...but you also need to be someone who can get non-wrestling fans to tune in and check this guy out, then stick around for the rest of it- which Punk and Bryan really can't be. This doesn't stop smarks from claiming it- in their peak the smark narrative actually tried to claim "Well, one time this ESPN radio show host searching to fill time said he'd let Punk continue the Pipebomb! One time fans at a college football game chanted 'YES!' like Daniel Bryan- proof positive! They're bigger stars than Austin in 1998, Hulk Hogan in 1987, and The Rock right now combined!"...which adds another part to the narrative: In our hearts, we know that the wrestler who is THE MAN in WWE NEEDS to be a mainstream celebrity...and we wanted CM Punk or Daniel Bryan to be THE MAN in WWE JUST SO BADLY we decided to create a narrative that they were mainstream celebrities, even though they absolutely are not at all and probably never WOULD be.
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spagett
Hank Scorpio
Great Job!
Posts: 5,649
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Post by spagett on Dec 3, 2015 18:00:59 GMT -5
If Vince had the same mindset, in the late nineties, as he does now, The Rock would've stayed "Blue Chipper" Rocky Maivia. And damn it, Austin better not have went off-script during his KotR speech, or there'll be hell to pay. The minute heel Rock or Austin started getting cheered he'd have told them to stop doing stuff that was getting over and go back to being boring bland nothing characters. Cut out that If Ya Smell catchphrase, stop talking in the third person, stop raising that eyebrow etc.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 3, 2015 18:02:21 GMT -5
Roman was getting over organically and still is. He was the member of the Shield that got consistent cheers from the crowd. It wasn't until the Shield broke up and Roman went on his solo run did the mood change. Him cutting John Cena type promos didn't help his cause out either. Roman won't get 100% of the crowd because he "didn't pay his dues" in their eyes which we criticize WWE for making folks do but want it for Reigns. I wouldn't say with Reigns it was so much "dues paying" as it was the same backlash Cena got once he moved to RAW. It wasn't the "he's going over X, and I love X, so boo this man" (although that came later) it was, "Damn it, we've got to change the character, I know this style and this character got you over, now do it all over again, maintain that heat, but do it with this totally new gimmick" WIth Cena, he was the crass, brash, anti-hero almost heel punk bastard who would cut free-styles on people and would brawl and be in your face. Then he moved to RAW and was all "yay kids, I'm Krusty the Marine, salute and respect, kids" and fans went, "Wait a damn minute, we liked you when you were doing the thing that we liked but now you're...not anymore". With Reigns, he was the "say little, kill people" guy. Remember his first promo part with the Shield sit down? "When I have something to say, I'll say it" followed by "I've got something to say, interview over" and he walks out? Short promos, quiet killer, hot tag machine and "I'll die trying to kill you"...THOSE got him over. Then suddenly he starts cutting looney-tunes laced 10 and 15 minute promos, going in long matches when he'd always always been the Robert Gibson in the team, and it just...it was not the same character. You keep his promos short, you make him a guy who just wants to merc people, and who doesn't need to shuck and jive for 10 god damn minutes with the mic, and the crowds eat it up. Because that's more him, that's more his area of skill. A few well placed lines, and then murder bitches. You make him a laughing, joking, 10 minute monologue guy, and he's absolutely dead. Oh, I'm not going to disagree about them changing Roman from what brought him to the dance. That was foolish. But even before Suffering Succotash, the mood here and online was resentment for Roman getting pushed while someone like Cesaro wasn't.
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Post by Instant Classic on Dec 3, 2015 18:02:17 GMT -5
Sami Zayn
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Bub (BLM)
Patti Mayonnaise
advocates duck on rodent violence
Fed. Up.
Posts: 37,742
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Dec 3, 2015 18:19:22 GMT -5
I'm convinced that if they'd just let Reigns do his own thing (create his own persona, cut his own promos) that the backlash against him would be significantly lessened. His push is only forced because audiences won't take to his character. If they'd just let him be cool, the crowds would be begging WWE to push him.
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Post by xCompackx on Dec 3, 2015 18:22:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't say with Reigns it was so much "dues paying" as it was the same backlash Cena got once he moved to RAW. It wasn't the "he's going over X, and I love X, so boo this man" (although that came later) it was, "Damn it, we've got to change the character, I know this style and this character got you over, now do it all over again, maintain that heat, but do it with this totally new gimmick" WIth Cena, he was the crass, brash, anti-hero almost heel punk bastard who would cut free-styles on people and would brawl and be in your face. Then he moved to RAW and was all "yay kids, I'm Krusty the Marine, salute and respect, kids" and fans went, "Wait a damn minute, we liked you when you were doing the thing that we liked but now you're...not anymore". With Reigns, he was the "say little, kill people" guy. Remember his first promo part with the Shield sit down? "When I have something to say, I'll say it" followed by "I've got something to say, interview over" and he walks out? Short promos, quiet killer, hot tag machine and "I'll die trying to kill you"...THOSE got him over. Then suddenly he starts cutting looney-tunes laced 10 and 15 minute promos, going in long matches when he'd always always been the Robert Gibson in the team, and it just...it was not the same character. You keep his promos short, you make him a guy who just wants to merc people, and who doesn't need to shuck and jive for 10 god damn minutes with the mic, and the crowds eat it up. Because that's more him, that's more his area of skill. A few well placed lines, and then murder bitches. You make him a laughing, joking, 10 minute monologue guy, and he's absolutely dead. Oh, I'm not going to disagree about them changing Roman from what brought him to the dance. That was foolish. But even before Suffering Succotash, the mood here and online was resentment for Roman getting pushed while someone like Cesaro wasn't. That's the other thing wrong here; one guy getting a huge push and everyone else being held down doesn't need to happen. If Roman, Cesaro, and Ambrose all were at the same level, would that be a problem? In the Attitude Era, you had Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Big Show, Kane, HHH, etc. all in that "main event" level and nobody had a problem with it. Nowadays, it feels like everyone's in a line just waiting for the previous guy to move on, and that's a horrible way to do business.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 18:51:13 GMT -5
I always avoid using absolutes like 'never' and 'always.' I never like to use them. never say never
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gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
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Post by gr1990 on Dec 3, 2015 19:02:19 GMT -5
Vince has never known how to make a top star. Hogan reached the top doing a gimmick he came up with himself and had already made a success of in the AWA, Rock, Austin and Cena only made it after being allowed to ditch Vince's shitty original ideas for their characters, and of those three only Rock was earmarked for the top from the second he showed up like Reigns has been. The problem now is, those accidental successes will never happen because Vince is gonna micromanage every potential top babyface into being some hybrid of the top babyfaces that have proceeded them rather than letting them be something original that they are comfortable with. And his insistence on booking in a way that screams 'this is our guy! No one else matters!' ensures whoever his chosen one is will always attract resentment from a significant portion of the fanbase.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
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Post by gr1990 on Dec 3, 2015 19:16:31 GMT -5
Roman was getting over organically and still is. He was the member of the Shield that got consistent cheers from the crowd. It wasn't until the Shield broke up and Roman went on his solo run did the mood change. Him cutting John Cena type promos didn't help his cause out either. Roman won't get 100% of the crowd because he "didn't pay his dues" in their eyes which we criticize WWE for making folks do but want it for Reigns. This ties equally into the other side of it where it's not just Vince McMahon's fault here: There will never be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock because the smarks WON'T LET there be another Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock unless it happens on OUR terms- not Vince McMahon's, not Triple H's, not the "casual fans" or kids, not the mainstream media- OUR terms. Even past the "once the Monster Push Sense tingling" factor, the same point is there- the smarks made it clear- we demand any top hero be a smark darling, and only a smark darling. If WWE is behind it, that naturally doesn't matter- but if the casual fans and kids like it, that ALSO doesn't matter if the smarks don't like the person. If the smarks don't like the person, we will do whatever it takes, including hijacking the show until a smark darling gets to be the star- whether the casual fans and kids care about them or not. This is fine to make new main event names, but it's also a problem because again, to be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock you need more than just pretty suplexes to captivate America- you NEED to be the darling of both the casual fans and the smarks to make it to that level (which CM Punk and Daniel Bryan proved can happen)...but you also need to be someone who can get non-wrestling fans to tune in and check this guy out, then stick around for the rest of it- which Punk and Bryan really can't be. This doesn't stop smarks from claiming it- in their peak the smark narrative actually tried to claim "Well, one time this ESPN radio show host searching to fill time said he'd let Punk continue the Pipebomb! One time fans at a college football game chanted 'YES!' like Daniel Bryan- proof positive! They're bigger stars than Austin in 1998, Hulk Hogan in 1987, and The Rock right now combined!"...which adds another part to the narrative: In our hearts, we know that the wrestler who is THE MAN in WWE NEEDS to be a mainstream celebrity...and we wanted CM Punk or Daniel Bryan to be THE MAN in WWE JUST SO BADLY we decided to create a narrative that they were mainstream celebrities, even though they absolutely are not at all and probably never WOULD be. Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 19:29:18 GMT -5
The thing what helped Reigns get over in the Shield is this...that was Reigns pretty much being himself. Look at him in all the Shield stuff, how he acted around Ambrose and Rollins. Look at Reigns and Ambrose in the Destruction of the Shield documentary. See how they acted together backstage? They were sitting down, making jokes about people in the hallway, just bullshitting. See how Reigns doesn't have the whole world on his back and he's actually having fun? That's how Reigns really acts. Read those interviews from Reigns early last year, that's how he really acts. He's really that sorta cocky, "I'm that tough dude you don't wanna mess with", "I'm just doing me, screw you" type of guy, that "I'm just having fun messing around" type of dude. Sometimes he makes some jokes, sometimes he does something that's more humbling but as a whole that's how Reigns is. That's what got him over because when people saw how cool and "real" the guy was they started liking him. I know because I was a fan of the dude then. When did my opinion change? When he got onto Ambrose for that US title match. Why? Because that's the moment they started changing his character from how he used to be. Since then they've been keeping Reigns on the same trend. He's not being himself. Sure, you can give him Ambrose and the Usos but that's not what made him who he was. How Reigns is in the gifs, the company tries to force that stuff but it's not authentic. The friendship of the Shield clicked because it just happened but now they're trying to find that piece of what made Reigns great and assume it's going to fix all the problems. That was part of it but it wasn't him. How he is now? He wasn't acting like this back then. At all. The moment he starts being himself like he was during the beginning and middle of Shield's run, he'll be good but until then he's always not going to be as "real" as he was back then to the crowd. We just feel that about him, we know. Rock let it all hang out and he caught on, same with Austin, same with Cena, same with Hogan, just let him do him and he's good. And that's why people want the heel turn because that's the only time we've really seen Reigns let it all hang out and not give a f***. Like Punk told Kofi a few weeks ago, the only way to get over is to not give a f***. Basically the company needs to let go of the "reigns" and let him do what it do and he'll get over.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 3, 2015 19:40:57 GMT -5
They don't have the patience to get someone to that Austin level as it stands right now.
Austin was pushed hard for like 2 years straight before he actually started moving the needle business-wise and changing the tide of business. Hell, Cena was getting outperformed by Batista during his first year or so as a top guy. He didn't take over the helm until he had been on top for months and months and months.
With all the week-to-week booking and start-and-stop pushes, it's impossible to create real legit stars that are gonna do anything significant for business. Yeah, you have guys who are over with the live crowds but the casual audience doesn't see them that way because they've been programmed not to with all this stupid ass 50/50 "I beat you on Monday, you beat me next Thursday" type booking. 50/50 booking doesn't get folks over, it just keeps everybody at the same level. WWE essentially has the biggest midcard the wrestling world has ever seen right now (or at least, they did before folks started getting hurt left and right).
You gotta commit. Literally the only guy they are doing that with now is Roman Reigns and they better f***ing hope he works out because they essentially have to start from scratch with anybody else from this current crop if he ends up flopping.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 3, 2015 20:45:32 GMT -5
Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. Daniel Bryan has been effectively on IR for two years since becoming this big star. He's had plenty of time on his hands, even considering recuperation (and if there's a problem with knowing if WWE will clear him, but he's been cleared by his own doctors, it's still there.) What shows are Daniel Bryan guest starring in so I can set my DVR? When's Daniel Bryan's movie coming out (especially considering Bryan's a bigger star, and his look probably wouldn't have been that big a difference in Santa's Little Helper?) Same problem for CM Punk. He's been retired for two years- and even though he's training for his UFC debut, Punk had said many times he was interested in doing a movie eventually. He's had two years of time- and yet all he's done are some spots for Nerdist and be a professional Walking Dead enthusiast (not even on Walking Dead for a token guest spot, just a enthusiast.) They have all the time in the world- even through their training and recuperation- right now, and yet even though it's clear their credentials with wrestling fans, they can't manage to get mainstream roles for some reason. That's about as big a black mark in their mainstream potential as possible- and the fact WWE Films is a thing (so ANY main eventer...or anyone on the roster, can get tried as a mainstream star) is a problem..
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 4, 2015 6:48:11 GMT -5
First, Cena isn't in the same category as Hogan/Austin/Rock. He isn' the kind of cross over star that they were and still are. Ask random people on the street who those four are and the one that will get recognized the least is definitely Cena.
Moving on from that point, I don't think it's Vince's fault entirely that we haven't had a huge star with cross over appeal since Rock. It's rare and since the company has gone public they can't do some of the stuff they used to do. Now, instead of just pleasing the fans they have to please Mattel, USA network, Shareholders, Sponsors, and all kinds of other management people. It's a tough road to navigate. What is Vince's fault is the start/stop pushes, the terrible creative decisions, and the stubbornness to not change direction no matter what the crowd says.
Reigns isn't getting to the point of Rock/Austin/Hogan or even Cena. The only guy in the last ten years with that chance was Bryan and instead of strapping the rocket ship to his back they cut him off at the knees and then he got hurt and now he'll probably never wrestle again. Don't get me wrong, Wrestlemania 30 was incredible for him but then he got a feud with Kane right after...not the follow up anyone deserves.
Currently the problem is that they have so many great wrestlers and zero great characters. Steve Austin was a great wrestler but nobody cared to watch him as the Ringmaster, when he became Stone Cold and they defined his character better he became a huge star. HHH is a great wrestler but no one cared when he was Hunter Hearst Helmsley, Connecticut blue blood, he only started to catch on when he became DX HHH. The characters just aren't defined enough and the storylines are almost nonexistent. The wrestlers need reasons to feud and creative gives them nothing beyond "I don't like this person" as a reason. We need more backstage segments or pre-tapes that give a reason for guys to be feuding. Feuds over a belt are easy but the part they're missing from the Attitude Era is that mid card guys got a storyline. Now they just trade wins for no rhyme or reason.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,208
Member is Online
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 4, 2015 8:05:44 GMT -5
This ties equally into the other side of it where it's not just Vince McMahon's fault here: There will never be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock because the smarks WON'T LET there be another Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock unless it happens on OUR terms- not Vince McMahon's, not Triple H's, not the "casual fans" or kids, not the mainstream media- OUR terms. Even past the "once the Monster Push Sense tingling" factor, the same point is there- the smarks made it clear- we demand any top hero be a smark darling, and only a smark darling. If WWE is behind it, that naturally doesn't matter- but if the casual fans and kids like it, that ALSO doesn't matter if the smarks don't like the person. If the smarks don't like the person, we will do whatever it takes, including hijacking the show until a smark darling gets to be the star- whether the casual fans and kids care about them or not. This is fine to make new main event names, but it's also a problem because again, to be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock you need more than just pretty suplexes to captivate America- you NEED to be the darling of both the casual fans and the smarks to make it to that level (which CM Punk and Daniel Bryan proved can happen)...but you also need to be someone who can get non-wrestling fans to tune in and check this guy out, then stick around for the rest of it- which Punk and Bryan really can't be. This doesn't stop smarks from claiming it- in their peak the smark narrative actually tried to claim "Well, one time this ESPN radio show host searching to fill time said he'd let Punk continue the Pipebomb! One time fans at a college football game chanted 'YES!' like Daniel Bryan- proof positive! They're bigger stars than Austin in 1998, Hulk Hogan in 1987, and The Rock right now combined!"...which adds another part to the narrative: In our hearts, we know that the wrestler who is THE MAN in WWE NEEDS to be a mainstream celebrity...and we wanted CM Punk or Daniel Bryan to be THE MAN in WWE JUST SO BADLY we decided to create a narrative that they were mainstream celebrities, even though they absolutely are not at all and probably never WOULD be. Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. Punk would not have become and stayed a mainstream celebrity. His personality would turn off a lot more people than it attracts. Once you become "mainstream", you have to appeal to more than just the disaffected under-30 crowd who will fall in love with an abrasive jackass as long as he's only got his sights turned on the people that they don't like. You try to put him on a morning talk show, OK. He goes up to Kathie Lee and Hoda and shouts "YOU'RE A WHORE, AND YOU'RE A DRUNK!" Wrestling fans will eat it up, sure. Young, cynical geek-chic types who don't give a shit about Kathie Lee or Hoda will eat it up. But the general public at large won't.
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pegasuswarrior
El Dandy
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@PulpPictionary
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Dec 4, 2015 8:18:03 GMT -5
Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. Once you become "mainstream", you have to appeal to more than just the disaffected under-30 crowd who will fall in love with an abrasive jackass as long as he's only got his sights turned on the people that they don't like. Wrestling fans will eat it up, sure. Young, cynical geek-chic types who don't give a shit about Kathie Lee or Hoda will eat it up. But the general public at large won't. Kanye West, et al, says hi.
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ASYLUMHAUSEN
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by ASYLUMHAUSEN on Dec 4, 2015 8:35:33 GMT -5
There won't be one after either(in terms of Hogan/Austin/Rock). Or another "boom period" but what about a New Nation?
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 4, 2015 12:54:45 GMT -5
This whole "hipsters boo someone who seems like they're picked from on high just because somehow it makes them feel cool!" thing really needs to go. No one thinks that way. It's never been a thing. It doesn't exist.
There IS a decades-old narrative of "vanilla midgets" not being given a chance because the higher-ups prefer a schlub with a good look. The WWE has explicitly cultivated this narrative themselves and used it to get both heels (Rock) and faces (Bryan) over. Fans seize on this because it seems unjust, and because it violates the (fake, but that doesn't matter here) idea that the WWE is some kind of meritocratic paradise where skill and passion can take anyone to the top.
The ridiculous thing is not just that the WWE keeps picking schlubs with good looks to push over vanilla midgets, but also they they inexplicably forget how often this has happened. It is absolutely flabbergasting to me what they've tried to do with Reigns, because it's the same old story, and they apparently have no idea.
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Post by Sponsored by Groose Wipes on Dec 4, 2015 12:58:58 GMT -5
The problem is Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock were loved by the fans when they were pushed. Roman is legit getting forced on to us and no one is having it, especially with other superstars that fans love and would rather see get the push.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
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Post by gr1990 on Dec 4, 2015 13:18:56 GMT -5
Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. Punk would not have become and stayed a mainstream celebrity. His personality would turn off a lot more people than it attracts. Once you become "mainstream", you have to appeal to more than just the disaffected under-30 crowd who will fall in love with an abrasive jackass as long as he's only got his sights turned on the people that they don't like. You try to put him on a morning talk show, OK. He goes up to Kathie Lee and Hoda and shouts "YOU'RE A WHORE, AND YOU'RE A DRUNK!" Wrestling fans will eat it up, sure. Young, cynical geek-chic types who don't give a shit about Kathie Lee or Hoda will eat it up. But the general public at large won't. Punk can behave himself if he's being paid to behave, he always came across well in mainstream press interviews when he was with WWE. And it's not as if every mainstream celebrity is a model of civility, far from it in fact.
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