|
Post by CATCH_US IS the Conversation on Dec 4, 2015 13:21:06 GMT -5
Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. Punk would not have become and stayed a mainstream celebrity. His personality would turn off a lot more people than it attracts. Once you become "mainstream", you have to appeal to more than just the disaffected under-30 crowd who will fall in love with an abrasive jackass as long as he's only got his sights turned on the people that they don't like. You try to put him on a morning talk show, OK. He goes up to Kathie Lee and Hoda and shouts "YOU'RE A WHORE, AND YOU'RE A DRUNK!" Wrestling fans will eat it up, sure. Young, cynical geek-chic types who don't give a shit about Kathie Lee or Hoda will eat it up. But the general public at large won't. If Punk tries to start something one of those bitches will break a bottle over his ass...literally.
|
|
gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
|
Post by gr1990 on Dec 4, 2015 13:25:29 GMT -5
Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. Daniel Bryan has been effectively on IR for two years since becoming this big star. He's had plenty of time on his hands, even considering recuperation (and if there's a problem with knowing if WWE will clear him, but he's been cleared by his own doctors, it's still there.) What shows are Daniel Bryan guest starring in so I can set my DVR? When's Daniel Bryan's movie coming out (especially considering Bryan's a bigger star, and his look probably wouldn't have been that big a difference in Santa's Little Helper?) Same problem for CM Punk. He's been retired for two years- and even though he's training for his UFC debut, Punk had said many times he was interested in doing a movie eventually. He's had two years of time- and yet all he's done are some spots for Nerdist and be a professional Walking Dead enthusiast (not even on Walking Dead for a token guest spot, just a enthusiast.) They have all the time in the world- even through their training and recuperation- right now, and yet even though it's clear their credentials with wrestling fans, they can't manage to get mainstream roles for some reason. That's about as big a black mark in their mainstream potential as possible- and the fact WWE Films is a thing (so ANY main eventer...or anyone on the roster, can get tried as a mainstream star) is a problem.. Bryan can't do anything without WWE's blessing, and they probably wouldn't choose him for most of those things, just like how Punk was requested for a lot of mainstream opportunities that ended up going to people they were more comfortable with representing the company like Sheamus and Orton. It was mentioned a while ago just how many Make-A-Wish things Bryan does, and Punk did a ton when he was there, but you rarely hear about it because they're not the 'face' of such campaigns. Anyway, I'm talking a hypothetical situation where WWE actually presented these guys as the face of the company, Punk doesn't have the clout to be a mainstream star because he was never front-and-centre of the company's interactions with the mainstream media, so only wrestling fans know who he is. Ditto for Bryan, and that's presuming either of them want to be that level of celebrity.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Dec 4, 2015 13:33:20 GMT -5
No one has the freedom anymore to run with anything.
That's why they can't build top class genuine stars anymore.
|
|
|
Post by radiantsilvergun on Dec 4, 2015 14:05:53 GMT -5
Owens and Ambrose both have that potential, only time will tell.
|
|
|
Post by darkjourney on Dec 4, 2015 22:26:24 GMT -5
There won't be anyways regardless of who you put in charge.. Those guys are rare breeds that come along once every lifetime. Kind of like Jordan, Gretzky, Phelps etc..
|
|
|
Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Dec 4, 2015 22:52:47 GMT -5
WWE is a scripted, mass produced paint by the numbers program now.
I don't want to say wrestling has seen it's best times, but it likely has. Theres too many other entertainment options out there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2015 2:36:28 GMT -5
This ties equally into the other side of it where it's not just Vince McMahon's fault here: There will never be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock because the smarks WON'T LET there be another Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock unless it happens on OUR terms- not Vince McMahon's, not Triple H's, not the "casual fans" or kids, not the mainstream media- OUR terms. Even past the "once the Monster Push Sense tingling" factor, the same point is there- the smarks made it clear- we demand any top hero be a smark darling, and only a smark darling. If WWE is behind it, that naturally doesn't matter- but if the casual fans and kids like it, that ALSO doesn't matter if the smarks don't like the person. If the smarks don't like the person, we will do whatever it takes, including hijacking the show until a smark darling gets to be the star- whether the casual fans and kids care about them or not. This is fine to make new main event names, but it's also a problem because again, to be a new Cena/Hogan/Austin/Rock you need more than just pretty suplexes to captivate America- you NEED to be the darling of both the casual fans and the smarks to make it to that level (which CM Punk and Daniel Bryan proved can happen)...but you also need to be someone who can get non-wrestling fans to tune in and check this guy out, then stick around for the rest of it- which Punk and Bryan really can't be. This doesn't stop smarks from claiming it- in their peak the smark narrative actually tried to claim "Well, one time this ESPN radio show host searching to fill time said he'd let Punk continue the Pipebomb! One time fans at a college football game chanted 'YES!' like Daniel Bryan- proof positive! They're bigger stars than Austin in 1998, Hulk Hogan in 1987, and The Rock right now combined!"...which adds another part to the narrative: In our hearts, we know that the wrestler who is THE MAN in WWE NEEDS to be a mainstream celebrity...and we wanted CM Punk or Daniel Bryan to be THE MAN in WWE JUST SO BADLY we decided to create a narrative that they were mainstream celebrities, even though they absolutely are not at all and probably never WOULD be. Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. I think WWE is missing out. People are into good performances and strong writing and grittiness right now, and WWE is still in it's post-Benoit "let's remake our image, we're family friendly now!" mode.
|
|
|
Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Dec 5, 2015 7:14:11 GMT -5
How about the other reasons that everybody always seems to ignore. There will never be another network show like The Cosby Show which was huge in the same era Hogan was. Their will never be another late nineties Seinfeld, no talk show host will ever be comparable to Oprah. These things are relics of a different era. However, society isn't lacking anything. The internet meme has replaced people copying every funny sitcom character's catchphrase. There will never be another Hogan/Austin/Rock because the metrics we use to judge them are slowly becoming more and more irrelevant. Bruno can claim he was a bigger star than Hogan because he uses the metrics that defined star in his era. Headlining MSG and newspaper column inches mattered in Brunos era and TV was a novelty. We are in that awkward time when television importance is fading and internet importance isn't legitimized yet. Cena and the modern guys are our Bob Backlund transition era.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Dec 5, 2015 7:42:28 GMT -5
Punk and Bryan are good-looking guys, they're not bodybuilders but they're in better shape than the average man, they're charismatic and engaging whether in or out of character, there's absolutely no reason why they couldn't have been mainstream celebrities, ditto many of the other 'internet darlings.' Most of the mainstream laughs at wrestling because they think it's still roided-up meatheads with no actual athletic ability trading weak punches and shouting nonsensical rubbish into the microphone. They'd be pleasantly surprised to find there's real athletes and intelligent people in the business. Not saying either Cena or Reigns are dumb or unathletic, but I don't think the mentality of 'HE'S a wrestler? But he's tiny, why would I want to watch that?' exists anymore, if indeed it ever has outside of promoters' minds. These people have never become mainstream stars because WWE never put them in that position, they were never marketed that way so we've no way of knowing if they had mass appeal outside the wrestling bubble. They probably wouldn't turn the masses back onto wrestling, but Cena hasn't done that either. Punk would not have become and stayed a mainstream celebrity. His personality would turn off a lot more people than it attracts. Once you become "mainstream", you have to appeal to more than just the disaffected under-30 crowd who will fall in love with an abrasive jackass as long as he's only got his sights turned on the people that they don't like. You try to put him on a morning talk show, OK. He goes up to Kathie Lee and Hoda and shouts "YOU'RE A WHORE, AND YOU'RE A DRUNK!" Wrestling fans will eat it up, sure. Young, cynical geek-chic types who don't give a shit about Kathie Lee or Hoda will eat it up. But the general public at large won't. Culture elevates assholes to stardom all the time.
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Dec 5, 2015 7:45:21 GMT -5
Not to be WWE Defender Person, but I'm always aware that Vince has much more to consider than we do. Part of the reason Cena's time on top has been so long is because he's scandal-free, seems to be pretty popular backstage, is reliable and hardworking. I love CM Punk, but I can fully appreciate why Vince would be reluctant to put him in such a prominent position. Many of the guys Vince has chosen (Brock and Orton, namely) have let him down and brought negativity to the company. Maybe they feel Roman is a good leader, maybe he's loyal and a hard worker. We don't know anything that goes on backstage and it's simply can't be as easy as "this guy is popular, let's give him everything". It's got to be very difficult to pick a guy that ticks all those boxes.
|
|
|
Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Dec 5, 2015 7:52:38 GMT -5
Only a Sith deals in absolutes
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Dec 5, 2015 7:54:05 GMT -5
Not to be WWE Defender Person, but I'm always aware that Vince has much more to consider than we do. Part of the reason Cena's time on top has been so long is because he's scandal-free, seems to be pretty popular backstage, is reliable and hardworking. I love CM Punk, but I can fully appreciate why Vince would be reluctant to put him in such a prominent position. Many of the guys Vince has chosen (Brock and Orton, namely) have let him down and brought negativity to the company. Maybe they feel Roman is a good leader, maybe he's loyal and a hard worker. We don't know anything that goes on backstage and it's simply can't be as easy as "this guy is popular, let's give him everything". It's got to be very difficult to pick a guy that ticks all those boxes. By only pushing guys who he thinks will stay with WWE forever, Vince is ignoring guys who could make shitloads of money for the company, even if it's just for a relatively short time compared to the length of time Cena has been around. Rock wasn't around for that long, neither was Austin.
|
|
|
Post by 111111 on Dec 5, 2015 7:54:37 GMT -5
I honestly think what it comes down to in WWE is having the balls to do your own thing.
The guys who catch on all usually start out with shitty gimmicks and Vince not seeing much in them, they then use that as a base and develop their own thing.
The corporate culture and lack of competition probably makes the roster more fearful of going against orders than say in the Attitude era
Look at The New Day, they were given shit and turned it in to a positive and because its connected with the crowd so well they've been given a push.
The problem with most guys on the roster is they aren't showing any personality. Alot of them can really go in the ring, are charismatic, connect with the crowd and they play well to arena crowds but are terrible TV characters
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Dec 5, 2015 8:07:24 GMT -5
Not to be WWE Defender Person, but I'm always aware that Vince has much more to consider than we do. Part of the reason Cena's time on top has been so long is because he's scandal-free, seems to be pretty popular backstage, is reliable and hardworking. I love CM Punk, but I can fully appreciate why Vince would be reluctant to put him in such a prominent position. Many of the guys Vince has chosen (Brock and Orton, namely) have let him down and brought negativity to the company. Maybe they feel Roman is a good leader, maybe he's loyal and a hard worker. We don't know anything that goes on backstage and it's simply can't be as easy as "this guy is popular, let's give him everything". It's got to be very difficult to pick a guy that ticks all those boxes. By only pushing guys who he thinks will stay with WWE forever, Vince is ignoring guys who could make shitloads of money for the company, even if it's just for a relatively short time compared to the length of time Cena has been around. Rock wasn't around for that long, neither was Austin. Absolutely. But it's his money and his life's work. He has to trust that the guy he puts in the top spot can handle the pressure, deal with media interviews etc, not bring scandal and negativity, not be divisive in the locker room. Maybe it would take Cena actually leaving for something to change. It shouldn't be Cena's responsibility but Vince is clearly reluctant to move on which I can truly understand in his position.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Dec 5, 2015 9:27:34 GMT -5
It'll be tough for guys to show they can handle those responsibilities if Vince never gives them the chance to prove it.
|
|
|
Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Dec 5, 2015 9:49:47 GMT -5
I never really understood the logic of "CM Punk would embarass the company". Did CM Punk ever drive around with his feud rival coked out of his head? did CM Punk ever make racist comments about his daughter's boyfriend? did CM Punk ever beat his wife? did CM Punk ever probably murder his girlfriend? did CM Punk ever go AWOL from the military? no. but a bunch of other guys that Vince pushed DID do those things. the worst I've ever seen of Punk was that he was a lot more outspoken about his opinions and beliefs than others, and considering most of those opinions were "myself/my friends are treated badly by my employer" and arguing for women's and LGBT rights I'm just not seeing how he'd embarrass anyone.
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Dec 5, 2015 9:55:46 GMT -5
Other than swearing too much, Punk comes across in sit-down interviews as being eloquent and reasonable. I'm sure he wouldn't have gone on national TV and punched out Ellen DeGeneres or anything like that. Hell, because he's not a buzzword spouting cyborg like Cena, he'd probably have been more entertaining and natural dealing with the mainstream. I'd have loved to have seen Punk on Real Time with Bill Maher or some shit like that. He'd definitely get something trending.
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 5, 2015 11:40:31 GMT -5
Punk would not have become and stayed a mainstream celebrity. His personality would turn off a lot more people than it attracts. Once you become "mainstream", you have to appeal to more than just the disaffected under-30 crowd who will fall in love with an abrasive jackass as long as he's only got his sights turned on the people that they don't like. You try to put him on a morning talk show, OK. He goes up to Kathie Lee and Hoda and shouts "YOU'RE A WHORE, AND YOU'RE A DRUNK!" Wrestling fans will eat it up, sure. Young, cynical geek-chic types who don't give a shit about Kathie Lee or Hoda will eat it up. But the general public at large won't. Culture elevates assholes to stardom all the time. And before anyone starts thinking this is a modern phenomenon, these guys were among the most famous celebs of all time. And were, mostly, assholes.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 5, 2015 11:50:57 GMT -5
I doubt Punk would have embarrassed WWE as their top babyface, he probably would have done a good job with people he appeals to.
But the key word is "people he appeals to", which I'm not among as I still find him insufferably annoying regardless of his role. Between the two, I'll take the less irritating "buzz word cyborg".
|
|
|
Post by Hit Girl on Dec 5, 2015 11:55:06 GMT -5
I doubt Punk would have embarrassed WWE as their top babyface, he probably would have done a good job with people he appeals to. But the key word is "people he appeals to", which I'm not among as I still find him insufferably annoying regardless of his role. Between the two, I'll take the less irritating "buzz word cyborg". Well thanks to WWE's tunnel vision, he's the only one available to take.
|
|