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Post by nickcave on Dec 8, 2015 16:45:41 GMT -5
The biggest four wrestlers that WWE has ever "created" all did it on their own. Hulk Hogan was already becoming popular by the time Vince got a hold of him because of Rocky III and his success in the AWA, Vince just has the biggest platform. Austin created Stone Cold on his own, Vince wanted him to be the boring Ringmaster and when that didn't work there's the classic example of WWF creative giving him the list of names that included among other terrible suggestions "Chilly McFreeze." Vince wanted The Rock to be smilin' Rocky Maivia in an era where that was the opposite of what the crowd wanted and it wasn't until he turned heel and started showing his own personality that he got over. Cena was on the verge of being released until he created his own Thuganomics character that connected with the crowd and it wasn't until WWE started slowly snipping away at all of the positive parts of his character that he really started to be hated. So if WWE really wants Roman to succeed they need to stop trying to mould him and let him find his own voice because God knows he's not coming up with shit like tator tots and sufferin' succatash on his own.
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
Posts: 31,366
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Dec 8, 2015 16:49:45 GMT -5
Yep, but good luck convincing them of any of that. They did get Edge and Orton over, as much as that amounts to, but the only star that the mainstream knows I think they ever truly made was Undertaker.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 8, 2015 16:56:33 GMT -5
WWE absolutely had a part in everybody you just listed. Yes, the reason why those guys are so great is because of their own talent and ideas but, as we see on Raw literally every week, being a great talent only gets you so far when you are getting beat to death and losing in middle of the card matches. It's a very VERY rare kind of talent that can get more over from that kind of thing.
WWE made the decision to get the marketing train behind those guys and it paid off. They are the ones that decided to give Hogan a 3+ year reign or whatever his first one was. They are the ones that had Austin stun everybody and their grandmother. They are the ones that gave Rock a platform to do his thing and be the Rock that everybody loves, including plenty of mic time. WWE were the ones that elevated those guys to the point where they could get over as a mega-league superstar.
What you're suggesting is that they have a bad eye for talent, which is absolutely true in some cases because of all the goofy conceptions they have about what a star needs to be. But no, WWE helped all those guys get over. They may not have been the main reason but they played a part and it was deliberate.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 8, 2015 17:07:08 GMT -5
So the new narrative that Vince played no part in helping people like Hogan, Austin, and Rock become household names? Y'all be wildin.
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Post by rydndirty on Dec 8, 2015 17:12:54 GMT -5
Regardless of who had the "idea", Vince and Co. gave the vehicle for the character to get exposure.
Hulkamania was starting in AWA, true. It would not have reached 1/10th of it's popularity without Vince.
Same with SCSA and Cena.
Rock on the other hand? He was shot to the moon by the WWE and he went way beyond on his own in Hollywood.
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gr1990
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,485
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Post by gr1990 on Dec 8, 2015 17:13:29 GMT -5
It's ridiculous to say WWE had 'no part' in all their top guys' successes and they stumbled into megastardom by accident, but it's true that WWE's original ideas for all these performers got them nowhere and it was only after a complete reinvention (usually instigated by the performer's own ideas rather than the company's) that they reached to the top. In decades past, Vince seemed a lot more willing to embrace other peoples' vision and listen to his fans, he saw what was catching on and promoted the hell out of it rather than ploughing on and doing things his way to prove a point, but both past and present, his first instinct of how to push a guy has rarely worked out for them.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,515
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Dec 8, 2015 17:18:26 GMT -5
So the new narrative that Vince played no part in helping people like Hogan, Austin, and Rock become household names? Y'all be wildin. Agreed. This is getting silly now |
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 8, 2015 17:22:40 GMT -5
So the new narrative that Vince played no part in helping people like Hogan, Austin, and Rock become household names? Y'all be wildin. Agreed. This is getting silly now People complain about WWE rewriting history but fans are just as bad if not worst. |
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Post by abjordans on Dec 8, 2015 17:45:00 GMT -5
This thread is taking the Vince/WWE cynicism a bit far. They are the ONLY ones in the wrestling biz who know how to make a megastar... Or did know how to, at least.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Dec 8, 2015 17:59:41 GMT -5
No, Vince didn't create Hogan, but the cocaine-fueled America of Reaganomics was the only time in history where Vince's view of the world aligned with the popular zeitgeist at the time. Having the right platform allowed Hogan, Savage, Piper and others to shine. However, you saw the slow degradation of the WWF's popularity the further away from the '80s that we got, and it took WCW kicking Vince's ass for him to be willing to listen to Vince Russo, who was the right man for the vibe of the late 1990's. That gave the platform needed for Austin, Rock, Foley and more.
When the mood shifted again, WCW was out of business and Vince was sitting on a publicly-traded monopoly. He's a man who was able to tap into the popular imagination once but also got by on the help of many others. Unfortunately, the legend of Vince McMahon the wrestling genius and the realities of WWE in the 21st century make this version of the company the least flexible and the least entertaining we've ever had. John Cena never had the right platform to truly be a star like the ones of Rock 'n Wrestling and Attitude. Roman Reigns will have even less to work with if they insist on carrying forward.
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Post by moondoggie on Dec 8, 2015 18:00:29 GMT -5
So if WWE made The Undertaker and WCW pretty much made Goldberg as their guy and ECWs made guy was Taz...man come to think of it not many guys where actually truely made by their companies hands since alot of the made stars where ones who made themselves what they are.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 8, 2015 18:41:53 GMT -5
Yall brothas be wilding in the streets now a days. WWE has it shit days but this is ridiculous.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Dec 8, 2015 18:44:17 GMT -5
Of course they had a hand in making them HUGE, but what the OP is saying is that Vince didn't create them. He gets this undeserved "creative genius" attachment that simply isn't true.
The only gimmick that I can think of that Vince himself created that was actually fantastic is The Undertaker. That's his. And for that, good job. He's not as good as he's been made out to be, never has been. Great promoter? yes, once upon a time. He's coasting now. Has been for a long time now. Creatively, he's mind bafflingly awful. It literally hurts my head if I think about it too long at how stupid he is when it comes to his own product. The podcast with Stone Cold didn't help.
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Post by sportatorium on Dec 8, 2015 18:56:37 GMT -5
Jim Ross would do everything he could to make the performer in the ring seem like the biggest deal in the world on commentary. This was especially true when he led Talent Relations. He would talk about Marc Mero & Tom Brandi feuding like it was Ric Flair & Harley Race.
Vince went on TV & made a fool of himself or took beatings to get guys over. They did a ton for talent in the Attitude Era.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 8, 2015 19:27:08 GMT -5
The WWF/E have never been able to build a megastar from the ground up despite their best efforts, what they do know how to do is create opportunities for guys who have done a lot of the work honing their skills and perfecting their characters themselves. When other promoters fail to capitalize on stars in the making, Vince has been there to swoop in and build people up to that next level. That said, when he has tried to manufacture people, when he has tried to mold a raw lump of clay of his choosing into the next face of the company, he has failed, each and every time. I know people will say 'Cena!' or 'Rock!' but both people were failed projects, Cena came up with the gimmick (White rapper) that got him over, Vince came up with the gimmick (Marine) and booking (Overcoming the odds!) that put a cap on how over he can be, likewise he wanted Rocky Maivia to be the next big thing and the crowd chanted for him to die, Rocky salvaged himself after that push crashed and burned, getting over in one of Vince Russo's island of misfit toys factions.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,294
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Post by Fade on Dec 8, 2015 19:45:52 GMT -5
Spot on agree. To play Devils Advocate, Baristas build was phenomenal but the pay out was taking a backseat to Cenas forced push. No way Dave was on those fours level. but that reinforces OPs point.
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Post by benstudd on Dec 8, 2015 20:26:19 GMT -5
It doesn't mean because some of these guys had a hand in creating their characters and got popular before that that the WWF/E didn't have a hand in turning them into megastars.
Hogan pretty much had all the networks and toy companies at his feet before the WWF. But they sure promoted the Hell out of him, they came up with Hulkamania and booked him him to the moon.
Austin created Stone Cold. But they placed him in a feud with Bret Hart. They booked his Mania match against Bret with the blood and double turn. They had him give a stunner to Vince. By 1998 Russo said that Vince told him "alright it's all about Austin now".
CREATING STARS IS A MIX OF BOTH THE TALENT'S CREATIVITY AND THE PROMOTION THAT GIVES THESE GUYS THE PLATFORM TO SHINE.
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Post by willywonka666 on Dec 8, 2015 21:05:25 GMT -5
It took Vince AND those guys taking the ball and running with it to make it work. It doesn't work with just one side
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Dec 8, 2015 21:07:34 GMT -5
Yeah, promoters came up with and developed the characters for Gorgeous George, Ric Flair, Harley Race, Dusty Rhodes, Nick Bockwinkel, Hansen, the Funks. It's almost never the talent themselves who come up with their characters based on their own personalities.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 8, 2015 21:14:51 GMT -5
Lorne Michaels has never known how to make a star. All the comedians he "created" did it on their own. Will Ferrell was already a successful, professional comedian when he was hired; Lorne just gave him the biggest platform. Kristen Wiig created Gilly on her own, Lorne wanted her to do a character called Wilson McGavinz and didn't contribute anything to the character that worked. He wanted to call the character Schmilly. Lorne wanted Tina Fey to not wear glasses, and then Tina Fey decided to start being true to her own self and started wearing glasses on her own and the crowd loved it. So if SNL wants Kate Mckinnon to succeed, they need to stop writing characters for her and let her find her own voice. I only enjoy performers when they're playing versions of themselves, and so if I enjoy something, it means the performer came up with it on their own, and if I don't enjoy something it means it was forced upon them, that's just logic.
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