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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Apr 25, 2016 21:41:01 GMT -5
Nah. Times have changed. I illustrate this by pointing out how much more popular Spider-Man is today, than Superman.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 21:49:38 GMT -5
I grew up on the 80's stars and was in HS/college during the MNW era, and I think there's a bit of truth in that statement, at least when talking about mainstream appeal. I don't think anyone is going to accuse Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Austin, Rock, HHH, Undertaker, etc, of being normal looking. Those guys were definitely built to look beyond the "normal" person. You can make the argument with Bret and Shawn (although I never saw Bret as being 'small'), but then again they were on top during a down period in the business.
Wrestling is fake. Watching a guy who looks like you or me in the ring vs. someone who looks like Cena, Batista, Lesnar, etc, is a huge difference, especially when trying to get lost in the moment. That's obviously subjective. Some like the smaller guys, and that's fine. Some like the spot fest/false finisher style of today, and again, that's fine. However, I can see why it could turn some people off, especially those who grew up with the WWF in the 80's and 90's.
There's really no fix for that. Guys are going to be smaller because of drug testing, and height isn't nearly as important as it used to be since the WWE has evolved into more of an "appreciate the artform" sort of show rather than "everything that happens in the ring is to be treated as real" like it used to be. Society has changed, and the WWE has adapted.
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Post by bluemeii on Apr 25, 2016 21:51:57 GMT -5
Sure there's credibility to it. Just some of the responses in this thread show it's an issue for some people. Just because they feel that way doesn't make them more or less a fan.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Apr 25, 2016 22:00:34 GMT -5
Nah. Times have changed. I illustrate this by pointing out how much more popular Spider-Man is today, than Superman. In general, the fact that Marvel, whose characters are meant to be a little more grounded, flawed, and ultimately human, are topping the box office and leaving the more idealized pantheon of DC to choke on its dust is a good indicator of the sorts of major cultural changes that have gone down since the '80s. It's not as simple and straightforward anymore; a lot of our heroes are darker and more complicated now, and even when you get an unambiguous good guy like your Captain Americas, they're put into dicier and more intricate situations. There's still a place for your murderous heroic figures in the vein of Schwarzenegger in Commando--see the Taken series--but the heroes that are truly iconic now are not the same kinds of ones that the children of the '80s grew up with. Which is good just from a stagnation avoidance standpoint.
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Post by Reflecto on Apr 25, 2016 22:16:20 GMT -5
There's really no fix for that. Guys are going to be smaller because of drug testing, and height isn't nearly as important as it used to be since the WWE has evolved into more of an "appreciate the artform" sort of show rather than "everything that happens in the ring is to be treated as real" like it used to be. Society has changed, and the WWE has adapted. This gives another side of it, where it's not just "drug testing" making people shrink, but also the rise of other sports. We've seen how WWE could readjust in an era where they couldn't have steroid users to get them a body like an Adonis- the steroid trial era of WWE. In that era, there were still guys like Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels who became stars...but more specifically, WWE also readjusted to turn super-fat guys (Yokozuna, Mabel, Bam Bam Bigelow, King Kong Bundy) or super-tall guys (Undertaker, Diesel, "Kane") to be their big monsters. In the 1990s, where there were slightly fewer pro sports options, that could happen. By contrast, in this era? If people as young as Yokozuna and Mabel, who were both as big as and even as agile as Yokozuna and Mabel (neither of whom would be confused for a cruiserweight in-ring) would have every NFL team BEGGING them to play lineman for them. That's just for a sport as localized as American football is...when you add how basketball's exploded worldwide in the last 20 years to the mix, then you also have the fact that pretty much any person who is 7 foot tall and can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time will have SOME team, somewhere in the world, willing to pay them to play professional basketball for them. We've seen how that had lowered the cupboard for tall workers- until Colin Cassady broke out alongside Enzo Amore, there was a disturbingly long period of time for pro wrestling when most wrestling fans could truly say that "After his semi-feud with Big Show and the one match when he was a guest host- if Shaquille O'Neal ever actually decided to give pro wrestling a try, he would instantly be one of the greatest seven-foot-tall prospects in years".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 22:33:31 GMT -5
If anything wrestling could probably benefit from a lot more normal-looking schlubs. It's the sort of thing that'd be easy to sell geeks on and has tons of background mythology to fall back on and attract that sort of obsessive crowd with, and to merchandise the hell out of, and really these days being a geek is more popular than being a jock.
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Post by somsta on Apr 25, 2016 23:06:01 GMT -5
Macho wore awesome outfits. Zayn's horrible tights look like he wrapped himself in a NASCAR checker flag. Case closed.
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Post by lockedontarget on Apr 26, 2016 4:38:49 GMT -5
I think the smarks would go into orgasmic ecstasy for a Zayn-AJ main event at WM (even saw someone speculate on that) but I don't think it would see to the masses in a big way. Fans went nuts for Daniel Bryan in the WM30 main event and pissed all over the WM32 main event featuring two jacked guys that "look like stars".
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Apr 26, 2016 4:53:03 GMT -5
Time's changed. Live in the now.
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Post by celtics543 on Apr 26, 2016 5:58:17 GMT -5
If anything wrestling could probably benefit from a lot more normal-looking schlubs. It's the sort of thing that'd be easy to sell geeks on and has tons of background mythology to fall back on and attract that sort of obsessive crowd with, and to merchandise the hell out of, and really these days being a geek is more popular than being a jock. Completely disagree with this. Are we really going to say that Zayn, AJ, Rollins etc are nerds and not jocks? Those guys are highly athletic and are clearly jocks. For some reason the word nerd keeps getting thrown out here and I know what everyone means as far as the wrestlers being fans of comic books and video games and maybe not looking or sounding like the mega stars of years past but open your eyes, these guys are clearly jocks. The New Day are all incredible athletes, Balor, Joe, Ryder, Owens, all of those guys are great athletes, not 120lb comic book sore nerds. The body types may have changed but it's the access to their lives that is making the biggest difference. If you only saw what is presented on tv every Monday and Thursday, as well as ppv's, you would have no idea about most of the guys interests outside the ring. Maybe you'd have some idea with New Day but if all you saw of most guys was what they did in the ring and on the mic you wouldn't know about their "nerdy" interests. This is where social media has changed things immensely. Part of looking like a larger than life star is only being public when you want to be seen, on the show or as part of a big event somewhere. Now we can see John Cena or Randy Orton or whoever tweet at all hours of the day about mundane stuff and it takes away the larger than life aura. I understand that they use it to try to bring in new fans and get over but it takes away the larger than life element.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2016 6:08:15 GMT -5
If anything wrestling could probably benefit from a lot more normal-looking schlubs. It's the sort of thing that'd be easy to sell geeks on and has tons of background mythology to fall back on and attract that sort of obsessive crowd with, and to merchandise the hell out of, and really these days being a geek is more popular than being a jock. Completely disagree with this. Are we really going to say that Zayn, AJ, Rollins etc are nerds and not jocks? Those guys are highly athletic and are clearly jocks. For some reason the word nerd keeps getting thrown out here and I know what everyone means as far as the wrestlers being fans of comic books and video games and maybe not looking or sounding like the mega stars of years past but open your eyes, these guys are clearly jocks. The New Day are all incredible athletes, Balor, Joe, Ryder, Owens, all of those guys are great athletes, not 120lb comic book sore nerds. The body types may have changed but it's the access to their lives that is making the biggest difference. If you only saw what is presented on tv every Monday and Thursday, as well as ppv's, you would have no idea about most of the guys interests outside the ring. Maybe you'd have some idea with New Day but if all you saw of most guys was what they did in the ring and on the mic you wouldn't know about their "nerdy" interests. This is where social media has changed things immensely. Part of looking like a larger than life star is only being public when you want to be seen, on the show or as part of a big event somewhere. Now we can see John Cena or Randy Orton or whoever tweet at all hours of the day about mundane stuff and it takes away the larger than life aura. I understand that they use it to try to bring in new fans and get over but it takes away the larger than life element. I'm talking about in general body type. Yeah, absolutely someone like AJ is an outright athlete, but he also pretty much just looks like any normal guy on the street. That's easier to relate to than some 300 pound over-muscled behemouth.
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Post by 魔界5号 on Apr 26, 2016 6:30:16 GMT -5
No.
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 26, 2016 8:22:06 GMT -5
It could also be the access we get now with everything being on social media. In the old days you didn't see Savage other than when he was on the show, now we see Cena and everyone else on twitter/facebook/instagram doing regular people things and it sort of takes you out of it. I'm not sure. I think that Randy Savage would've still been a larger than life figure no matter what. Savage: "Mean Gene if you want a brush of greatness follow me on Instragram yeah. There you'll see greatness. I've got a hundred fifty thousand photos of the Macho Man holding the Intercontitnental Heavyweight Championship with two hundred fifty thousand being uploaded tomorrow!!!" Gene: "Will the lovely Elizabeth ever get Instagram?" Savage: "......the only Instagram for Elizabeth are the eyes of the Macho Man!! And they're worth more than zillions and zillions of followers all around the world. OOOOH YEAH!" Gene: "There's the reigning Intercontitnental Champion..." Savage: *from way off screen* "FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER YEAH!!" Gene: "...and keep up with him @machomansavage on Twitter"
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Post by saintpat on Apr 26, 2016 8:40:13 GMT -5
I think the smarks would go into orgasmic ecstasy for a Zayn-AJ main event at WM (even saw someone speculate on that) but I don't think it would see to the masses in a big way. Fans went nuts for Daniel Bryan in the WM30 main event and pissed all over the WM32 main event featuring two jacked guys that "look like stars". True, Bryan got over. But at that WM he had to beat three long-established "jacked guys" in HHH, Orton and Batista. His appeal was "overcoming the odds" of the stack deck against him. And do so while "injured' no less. I don't know if the same program would have worked as a WM main event if Bryan had stayed healthy and the next year they had built up Rollins or Ziggler, to pick two names. David vs. Goliath sells better than David vs. David.
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Post by Throwback on Apr 26, 2016 10:51:55 GMT -5
absolutely someone like AJ is an outright athlete, but he also pretty much just looks like any normal guy on the street. What street are you walking on dude? Sure standing next to guys in the WWE AJ is a smaller person. But out in the world. Say... walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude.
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Post by saintpat on Apr 26, 2016 10:53:12 GMT -5
Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild Avatar
4 hours ago Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild said:
celtics543 Avatar
4 hours ago celtics543 said: absolutely someone like AJ is an outright athlete, but he also pretty much just looks like any normal guy on the street.
What street are you walking on dude? Sure standing next to guys in the WWE AJ is a smaller person. But out in the world. Say... walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude.
I've seen AJ up close, front row at an ROH show. He was right in front of me, too-sweeted me. He's my height, about 5-8 to 5-8 1/2. He's well conditioned, in good shape and works out obviously, but if walked by you in a T-shirt and jeans in a hotel lobby and you weren't a wrestling fan (so therefore didn't know who he is), you wouldn't turn your head. You wouldn't even blink.
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Post by Toilet Paper Roll on Apr 26, 2016 10:55:45 GMT -5
Before the dawn on the grunge era in rock music acts looked like superheroes too. Times change and looks change.
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Post by Throwback on Apr 26, 2016 13:18:41 GMT -5
Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild Avatar 4 hours ago Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild said: celtics543 Avatar 4 hours ago celtics543 said: absolutely someone like AJ is an outright athlete, but he also pretty much just looks like any normal guy on the street. What street are you walking on dude? Sure standing next to guys in the WWE AJ is a smaller person. But out in the world. Say... walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude. I've seen AJ up close, front row at an ROH show. He was right in front of me, too-sweeted me. He's my height, about 5-8 to 5-8 1/2. He's well conditioned, in good shape and works out obviously, but if walked by you in a T-shirt and jeans in a hotel lobby and you weren't a wrestling fan (so therefore didn't know who he is), you wouldn't turn your head. You wouldn't even blink. Oh I got ya. He's not that tall. Height never really transitioned into toughness or impressive to me. Height isn't something people can work on. You're either tall or you're not. Therefore I've never found myself intimidated by height. But a guy who obviously works out. That's shows discipline and determination as well as strength. That can be intimidating.
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Post by celtics543 on Apr 26, 2016 13:33:27 GMT -5
It could also be the access we get now with everything being on social media. In the old days you didn't see Savage other than when he was on the show, now we see Cena and everyone else on twitter/facebook/instagram doing regular people things and it sort of takes you out of it. I'm not sure. I think that Randy Savage would've still been a larger than life figure no matter what. Savage: "Mean Gene if you want a brush of greatness follow me on Instragram yeah. There you'll see greatness. I've got a hundred fifty thousand photos of the Macho Man holding the Intercontitnental Heavyweight Championship with two hundred fifty thousand being uploaded tomorrow!!!" Gene: "Will the lovely Elizabeth ever get Instagram?" Savage: "......the only Instagram for Elizabeth are the eyes of the Macho Man!! And they're worth more than zillions and zillions of followers all around the world. OOOOH YEAH!" Gene: "There's the reigning Intercontitnental Champion..." Savage: *from way off screen* "FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER YEAH!!" Gene: "...and keep up with him @machomansavage on Twitter" On the show I think he could definitely incorporate it and make it still seem awesome. But when you go to the twitter page is there going to be pictures of him around the house doing menial stuff or what he ate for dinner? What would he tweet? I just think it takes away from the character unless they tweet in kayfabe and if you tweet in kayfabe you look like an idiot.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Apr 26, 2016 13:49:26 GMT -5
Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild Avatar 4 hours ago Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild said: celtics543 Avatar 4 hours ago celtics543 said: absolutely someone like AJ is an outright athlete, but he also pretty much just looks like any normal guy on the street. What street are you walking on dude? Sure standing next to guys in the WWE AJ is a smaller person. But out in the world. Say... walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude. I've seen AJ up close, front row at an ROH show. He was right in front of me, too-sweeted me. He's my height, about 5-8 to 5-8 1/2. He's well conditioned, in good shape and works out obviously, but if walked by you in a T-shirt and jeans in a hotel lobby and you weren't a wrestling fan (so therefore didn't know who he is), you wouldn't turn your head. You wouldn't even blink. During the infamous MEM angle, I remember Scott Steiner absolutely roasted the young guys for not looking like stars and flat out said that if AJ walked into a grocery store in his hometown in Georgia, nobody would recognize him. Even if he was just being a heel, he had a fair point, just as you do. Obviously, that was back in 2008 so AJ has done a better job of developing a star presence but even then, he's not the Conor McGregor type where you'll notice him as soon as he walks in the room because he forces you to notice him. To me, it goes back to the three-ring circus approach of wrestling. You need the colorful, over-the-top characters but you also need the low-key guys like Daniel Bryan. Different characters appeal to different segments of people. It's best to have a mixed bag of guys on top so you can draw from as many segments as possible.
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