thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,656
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Post by thecrusherwi on Apr 26, 2016 14:20:39 GMT -5
I'm not sure. I think that Randy Savage would've still been a larger than life figure no matter what. Savage: "Mean Gene if you want a brush of greatness follow me on Instragram yeah. There you'll see greatness. I've got a hundred fifty thousand photos of the Macho Man holding the Intercontitnental Heavyweight Championship with two hundred fifty thousand being uploaded tomorrow!!!" Gene: "Will the lovely Elizabeth ever get Instagram?" Savage: "......the only Instagram for Elizabeth are the eyes of the Macho Man!! And they're worth more than zillions and zillions of followers all around the world. OOOOH YEAH!" Gene: "There's the reigning Intercontitnental Champion..." Savage: *from way off screen* "FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER YEAH!!" Gene: "...and keep up with him @machomansavage on Twitter" On the show I think he could definitely incorporate it and make it still seem awesome. But when you go to the twitter page is there going to be pictures of him around the house doing menial stuff or what he ate for dinner? What would he tweet? I just think it takes away from the character unless they tweet in kayfabe and if you tweet in kayfabe you look like an idiot. I think if the character is close enough to the real person, it wouldn't be hard. Photos of his hundreds of hats, photos of him throwing darts at a photo of Hogan, him hanging out by the pool will Liz tided up. It probably has more to do with how one dimensional some of the modern characters are. If you're a backwoods cult leader or a guy who just obsessed with dancing, there isn't much you can do on social media that would add to your character. If you are Randy Savage and your gimmick is essentially "super intense person with a violent streak, but a flare for elligance", you can fit almost anything in the scope of life into that framework
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
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Post by saintpat on Apr 26, 2016 16:50:06 GMT -5
Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild Avatar 4 hours ago Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild said: celtics543 Avatar 4 hours ago celtics543 said: absolutely someone like AJ is an outright athlete, but he also pretty much just looks like any normal guy on the street. What street are you walking on dude? Sure standing next to guys in the WWE AJ is a smaller person. But out in the world. Say... walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude. I've seen AJ up close, front row at an ROH show. He was right in front of me, too-sweeted me. He's my height, about 5-8 to 5-8 1/2. He's well conditioned, in good shape and works out obviously, but if walked by you in a T-shirt and jeans in a hotel lobby and you weren't a wrestling fan (so therefore didn't know who he is), you wouldn't turn your head. You wouldn't even blink. During the infamous MEM angle, I remember Scott Steiner absolutely roasted the young guys for not looking like stars and flat out said that if AJ walked into a grocery store in his hometown in Georgia, nobody would recognize him. Even if he was just being a heel, he had a fair point, just as you do. Obviously, that was back in 2008 so AJ has done a better job of developing a star presence but even then, he's not the Conor McGregor type where you'll notice him as soon as he walks in the room because he forces you to notice him. To me, it goes back to the three-ring circus approach of wrestling. You need the colorful, over-the-top characters but you also need the low-key guys like Daniel Bryan. Different characters appeal to different segments of people. It's best to have a mixed bag of guys on top so you can draw from as many segments as possible. I agree there needs to be a big tent. Part of the problem is if WWE showcases someone who is a smark favorite in any way, the backlash is greater if they DON'T get pushed to be THE GUY than if they never used them as anything at all. Ziggler got a nice win at SummerSlam but the reaction when he wasn't suddenly the focus of the entire show was more harmful than giving him a night with the spotlight. Same with Zack Ryder. If the Bullet Club or Samoa Joe or whoever aren't suddenly the be-all, end-all top of the show, there's no "well, at least my guy is getting showcased on TV" as much as "they're ruining him because they aren't booking him like Hulk Hogan or John Cena." That's going to be tough wth all these indie/Japanese favorites getting elevated to the main roster, and I'm not sure there's a good solution.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Apr 26, 2016 16:52:38 GMT -5
Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild Avatar 4 hours ago Lizuka: WrestleMania Starchild said: celtics543 Avatar 4 hours ago celtics543 said: absolutely someone like AJ is an outright athlete, but he also pretty much just looks like any normal guy on the street. What street are you walking on dude? Sure standing next to guys in the WWE AJ is a smaller person. But out in the world. Say... walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude. I've seen AJ up close, front row at an ROH show. He was right in front of me, too-sweeted me. He's my height, about 5-8 to 5-8 1/2. He's well conditioned, in good shape and works out obviously, but if walked by you in a T-shirt and jeans in a hotel lobby and you weren't a wrestling fan (so therefore didn't know who he is), you wouldn't turn your head. You wouldn't even blink. Oh I got ya. He's not that tall. Height never really transitioned into toughness or impressive to me. Height isn't something people can work on. You're either tall or you're not. Therefore I've never found myself intimidated by height. But a guy who obviously works out. That's shows discipline and determination as well as strength. That can be intimidating. Well, I was just responding to a guy who said "walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude." And that's just not the case.
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Blindkarevik
Grimlock
Rock... Paper... Straight-edge!
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Post by Blindkarevik on Apr 26, 2016 20:20:32 GMT -5
Apologies if this horse has been beaten to death already, but I felt compelled to post after re-re-re-rewatching Zayn vs. Nakamura at Takeover, and since this directly references Zayn.... well, it seems fitting.
Let's look at this from a pure asthetic level as it seems the op references (I know, he's referencing a post elsewhere... so I'm not calling you out, OP, just mentioning the first post). Okay, compared to the superheroes of the 80s and early 90s, and the character driven wrestlers in the mid-90s.... yes, Zayn and Nakamura are not the most physically impressive guys. They're not much to look at, and outside the fact their looks ARE unique... neither of them will be doing a beefcake calendar anytime soon.
But, let's look at what they didn't do in that match. There was zero storyline other than it being Nakamura's debut and Zayn's swan-song, even though that was never outright mentioned. There were zero promos, outside of the initial match announcement we didn't hear from Nakamura at all... there was no "I'm gonna beat you, I NEED to beat you." It was just a simple matter of putting two guys together with no interaction. There was nothing at stake. There was no heel or face. Nakamura was never portrayed as, or even hinted at, being an evil foreigner.
What DID they do.... quite simply, they had the best match of Wrestlemania weekend and an obvious contender for match of the year.
They did this despite having absolutely none of the above, which would have been done to death in the Randy Savage era. All Zayn and Nakamura did was go out there, captivated an entire arena, not to mention everyone who watched the match live or since then. They didn't need any help to sell the match.
I'm not saying there weren't matched that were as good or better back in the day, guys like Savage were some of the absolute best of the era both in character and ring-work. However, while the overall look of wrestlers has changed with time... the one end goal has remained the same. Entertain the people. However, now that the kayfabe-era is long since dead and buried, the bloodlust and love of evil-doers getting their comeuppance has been replaced by fans who can appreciate the artistry, the athleticism and ability of the people in the ring. In that, captivating a crowd can be even more difficult because it takes more than one comeback move or high spot to get them into it... but if Zayn and Nakamura, despite not looking like bodybuilders, can do just that... I don't see them being a sign of what's wrong with the business, rather... they are proof there's life left in wrestling and are some of the brightest spots pointed towards its future.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Apr 26, 2016 20:37:46 GMT -5
Apologies if this horse has been beaten to death already, but I felt compelled to post after re-re-re-rewatching Zayn vs. Nakamura at Takeover, and since this directly references Zayn.... well, it seems fitting. Let's look at this from a pure asthetic level as it seems the op references (I know, he's referencing a post elsewhere... so I'm not calling you out, OP, just mentioning the first post). Okay, compared to the superheroes of the 80s and early 90s, and the character driven wrestlers in the mid-90s.... yes, Zayn and Nakamura are not the most physically impressive guys. They're not much to look at, and outside the fact their looks ARE unique... neither of them will be doing a beefcake calendar anytime soon. But, let's look at what they didn't do in that match. There was zero storyline other than it being Nakamura's debut and Zayn's swan-song, even though that was never outright mentioned. There were zero promos, outside of the initial match announcement we didn't hear from Nakamura at all... there was no "I'm gonna beat you, I NEED to beat you." It was just a simple matter of putting two guys together with no interaction. There was nothing at stake. There was no heel or face. Nakamura was never portrayed as, or even hinted at, being an evil foreigner. What DID they do.... quite simply, they had the best match of Wrestlemania weekend and an obvious contender for match of the year. They did this despite having absolutely none of the above, which would have been done to death in the Randy Savage era. All Zayn and Nakamura did was go out there, captivated an entire arena, not to mention everyone who watched the match live or since then. They didn't need any help to sell the match. I'm not saying there weren't matched that were as good or better back in the day, guys like Savage were some of the absolute best of the era both in character and ring-work. However, while the overall look of wrestlers has changed with time... the one end goal has remained the same. Entertain the people. However, now that the kayfabe-era is long since dead and buried, the bloodlust and love of evil-doers getting their comeuppance has been replaced by fans who can appreciate the artistry, the athleticism and ability of the people in the ring. In that, captivating a crowd can be even more difficult because it takes more than one comeback move or high spot to get them into it... but if Zayn and Nakamura, despite not looking like bodybuilders, can do just that... I don't see them being a sign of what's wrong with the business, rather... they are proof there's life left in wrestling and are some of the brightest spots pointed towards its future. Great points, well stated.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Apr 26, 2016 20:51:50 GMT -5
The post had a photo of Randy "Macho Man" Savage with the caption "This is what a wrestler used to look like." Then it had a pic of Sami Zayn that was captioned, "This is what a wrestler looks like today." The conclusion was something like: "This is what's really wrong with the business." That is, without a doubt, the stupidest comparison I've read today. Savage's successful contemporaries included Lawler, Flair, Dusty, Hennig, Backlund, Martel, Ron Garvin, and Tully bleeping Blanchard. Zayn's contemporaries include Corbin, Kane, UT, Lesnar, Abyss, the Wyatts, the Ascension and El bleeping Torito.
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Apr 26, 2016 21:00:57 GMT -5
The post had a photo of Randy "Macho Man" Savage with the caption "This is what a wrestler used to look like." Then it had a pic of Sami Zayn that was captioned, "This is what a wrestler looks like today." The conclusion was something like: "This is what's really wrong with the business." That is, without a doubt, the stupidest comparison I've read today. Savage's successful contemporaries included Lawler, Flair, Dusty, Hennig, Backlund, Martel, Ron Garvin, and Tully bleeping Blanchard. Zayn's contemporaries include Corbin, Kane, UT, Lesnar, Abyss, the Wyatts, the Ascension and El bleeping Torito. Abyss? WTFBBQ?
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Post by wildojinx on Apr 26, 2016 21:47:40 GMT -5
Well, just look at the pre-Hulkamania era of the WWF (70s-Early 80s). Bruno and Tony Atlas did look like tough guys at first glance, and Andre was larger than life, but look at the other top faces. Pedro Morales and Chief Jay Strongbow were kind of pudgy (i saw a pic of Morales wearing the IC belt and he had a gut), Monsoon and Putski looked like Grandfathers, even in their prime, and Backlund had lots of promo pics where he looked downright corny. Yet when they got in the ring they were all able to put on matches that the crowd ate up. Heck, one of the biggest stars of the 70s in general was Dusty Rhodes, and part of that appeal was because he looked like the average wrestling fan .
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Post by Throwback on Apr 26, 2016 23:14:08 GMT -5
Oh I got ya. He's not that tall. Height never really transitioned into toughness or impressive to me. Height isn't something people can work on. You're either tall or you're not. Therefore I've never found myself intimidated by height. But a guy who obviously works out. That's shows discipline and determination as well as strength. That can be intimidating. Well, I was just responding to a guy who said "walking through a mall, AJ would be considered a big dude." And that's just not the case. Yeah, That was me. LOL. and he would man. Like it or lump it. He's bigger than average.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Apr 27, 2016 0:23:35 GMT -5
Oh I got ya. He's not that tall. Height never really transitioned into toughness or impressive to me. Height isn't something people can work on. You're either tall or you're not. Therefore I've never found myself intimidated by height. But a guy who obviously works out. That's shows discipline and determination as well as strength. That can be intimidating. Even that doesn't help the same thing, considering that what constituted badass before has also dramatically changed. In the '80s and that era, "obviously worked out" leading, inevitably, to bodybuilder physiques could make you look like a superhero, and seem intimidating there. However, since UFC and MMA was on the rise, people found out the hard way that guys with bodybuilder physiques, by and large, couldn't hold their own in a real fight- and THAT, as much as anything else mentioned, can shrink wrestlers too. The simple fact that smaller guys and less comically-built people are starting to be seen as badass fighters in MMA will, inevitably, turn that to what a badass fighter looks like in pro wrestling.
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Post by Throwback on Apr 27, 2016 1:35:32 GMT -5
Oh I got ya. He's not that tall. Height never really transitioned into toughness or impressive to me. Height isn't something people can work on. You're either tall or you're not. Therefore I've never found myself intimidated by height. But a guy who obviously works out. That's shows discipline and determination as well as strength. That can be intimidating. Even that doesn't help the same thing, considering that what constituted badass before has also dramatically changed. In the '80s and that era, "obviously worked out" leading, inevitably, to bodybuilder physiques could make you look like a superhero, and seem intimidating there. However, since UFC and MMA was on the rise, people found out the hard way that guys with bodybuilder physiques, by and large, couldn't hold their own in a real fight- and THAT, as much as anything else mentioned, can shrink wrestlers too. The simple fact that smaller guys and less comically-built people are starting to be seen as badass fighters in MMA will, inevitably, turn that to what a badass fighter looks like in pro wrestling. That's exactly what I mean. I don't feel guys have to be 6 foot something and 300lbs to be seen as intimidating. Just a dude who obviously takes care of himself is more intimidating than most people I see on the average walk through town. For Instance I find a guy like Rey Mysterio much more intimidating physically than someone with a build like Giant Gonzalez.
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Post by celtics543 on Apr 27, 2016 8:19:46 GMT -5
I think the real issue isn't what they should look like to keep US entertained but what they need to do to draw in the public. Back in the day they had great wresters on the undercard, whether it was Guerrero, Jericho, Malenko, Benoit, or whoever they would put on stellar matches. The main event has usually been guys who were over the top characters though. The general public wants characters they can get lost in and have larger than life personalities. It's the reason Holly Holm isn't Rhonda Rousey or Vladimir Klitschko isn't Muhammad Ali. They don't have huge personalities that captivate an audience, they don't appeal to the general public.
Wrestling needs to have guys that appeal to the public at large. Daniel Bryan was on his way there but I'd argue that most of his appeal was in the story, and that his wrestling ability was a secondary attribute. He could have been just as good of a technical wrestler but without the charisma he wouldn't have gone anywhere. Some people love to watch technical wrestling and don't care about the story, many people on this site often complain or compliment the workrate of a wrestler, but the general audience just want to be entertained, they don't really care if the guy is great in the ring or merely passable. Hulk Hogan and Steve Austin didn't wrestle five star classics but they were still the biggest stars of all time. Zayn vs Nakamura didn't even headline the nXt show they were on despite being a technically great match. With a great story could those two headline a Wrestlemania, probably but everything is derived from the story being told.
I guess my point is that the people on this site are in the wrestling bubble already, we watch all the time, we like to watch guys who entertain us in the ring, but as Enzo has proven over the last few weeks the general audience would prefer a guy who entertains on the mic. Rock was never a great worker but his mic skills and the fact that he oozes charisma carries him. Tim Tebow have been the worst technical qb in the history of the NFL but he was a huge star because of his charisma. Teddy Bridgewater is twice the pro that Tebow was and you never hear anything about him because he's not a great interview and doesn't have that natural charisma.
The wrestling business needs all types of guys to appeal to as many audiences as possible but history has shown that when wrestling is at it's hottest, the mid card is loaded with guys who can work a great match and the main event is loaded with charismatic showman. Whether it was WCW when they had Guerrero, Benoit, Malenko, Mystery, Saturn, Raven etc. in the mid card and Hogan, Nash, Goldberg, Sting etc. in the main event or WWF in the 80's with Savage, Steamboat, Hart, Perfect, etc. in the mid card and Hogan, Warrior, Piper, Andre in the main event. Charisma is what draws, and technical wrestling entertains people once they've bought the show.
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