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Post by AwamoriRock on Aug 10, 2016 18:28:23 GMT -5
The "dude the match would have totally been better if they just listened to my great ideas" defense has never worked out better for anyone than Ambrose, lol. Not saying it wasn't true, but Dean wasn't exactly balls to the walls in that match either.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Aug 10, 2016 18:34:33 GMT -5
The "dude the match would have totally been better if they just listened to my great ideas" defense has never worked out better for anyone than Ambrose, lol. Not saying it wasn't true, but Dean wasn't exactly balls to the walls in that match either. But it didn't only come from Ambrose and how exactly was he supposed to do better if his coworker didn't want to work with him?
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Aug 10, 2016 18:40:13 GMT -5
The "dude the match would have totally been better if they just listened to my great ideas" defense has never worked out better for anyone than Ambrose, lol. Not saying it wasn't true, but Dean wasn't exactly balls to the walls in that match either. If Brock wasn't willing to do anything other then "Suplex City", then Dean had only two choices - one, Brock pretends to kill him, or 2, Brock kills him. If Dean tried to push things too much you know the latter was gonna happen. I've always gotten the impression that Brock has never had much respect for professional wrestling. He's not an old fan living a dream or even a proud professional trying to prove he's a superior athlete through it. To him it's just a paycheck. He's found an act that makes him money and he's not changing it unless he absolutely has to. Personally I think at this point the WWE would just be better off jobbing him out to a few big names then unceremoniously firing the guy. I'd rather them give PPV time to guys who want to be there rather then what's amounting to a freak show act.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Aug 10, 2016 18:52:07 GMT -5
Someone just needs to be able to stand up to Brock and punch him in the face.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Aug 10, 2016 19:09:50 GMT -5
The "dude the match would have totally been better if they just listened to my great ideas" defense has never worked out better for anyone than Ambrose, lol. Not saying it wasn't true, but Dean wasn't exactly balls to the walls in that match either. If Brock wasn't willing to do anything other then "Suplex City", then Dean had only two choices - one, Brock pretends to kill him, or 2, Brock kills him. If Dean tried to push things too much you know the latter was gonna happen. I've always gotten the impression that Brock has never had much respect for professional wrestling. He's not an old fan living a dream or even a proud professional trying to prove he's a superior athlete through it. To him it's just a paycheck. He's found an act that makes him money and he's not changing it unless he absolutely has to. Personally I think at this point the WWE would just be better off jobbing him out to a few big names then unceremoniously firing the guy. I'd rather them give PPV time to guys who want to be there rather then what's amounting to a freak show act. Yup. This is Brock in a nutshell
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Aug 10, 2016 19:19:03 GMT -5
From a perusal of audience reactions the internet over, Brock Lesnar's goodwill with online followers has evaporated on the good old Dolph Ziggler scale.
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canal
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Post by canal on Aug 10, 2016 19:30:04 GMT -5
Praising Brock for doing the least amount possible and getting paid the most is so weird to me.
Is that where we are now? Has the corporate world beaten us down that badly?
What happened to being the best you can be? Having pride in your work? Giving the people their money's worth? I guess we're far enough into the post-kayfabe world where thinking that way isn't cool anymore, but I don't buy it.
If I was in that locker room, I'd be sickened by the fact that Lesnar is above the rules and can phone it in (not just physically, but creatively and psychologically as well) and still make 5 million a year when he doesn't even move the damn needle anymore.
I get not faulting someone for treating it like a job and making as much money for as little work possible, but so often with Lesnar it turns into fawning over him and thinking he's super cool for it, probably out of some kind of nihilistic fantasy because people try so hard at things and feel under-rewarded, forgetting that the reward is knowing you tried your hardest and did your best, that it's about the chase.
As you can probably see, I think this extends far past wrestling and into our cynical cultural values. It's not about quality and passion, it's about greed and the lulz.
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Aug 10, 2016 19:46:16 GMT -5
Praising Brock for doing the least amount possible and getting paid the most is so weird to me. Is that where we are now? Has the corporate world beaten us down that badly? What happened to being the best you can be? Having pride in your work? Giving the people their money's worth? I guess we're far enough into the post-kayfabe world where thinking that way isn't cool anymore, but I don't buy it. If I was in that locker room, I'd be sickened by the fact that Lesnar is above the rules and can phone it in (not just physically, but creatively and psychologically as well) and still make 5 million a year when he doesn't even move the damn needle anymore. I get not faulting someone for treating it like a job and making as much money for as little work possible, but so often with Lesnar it turns into fawning over him and thinking he's super cool for it, probably out of some kind of nihilistic fantasy because people try so hard at things and feel under-rewarded, forgetting that the reward is knowing you tried your hardest and did your best, that it's about the chase. As you can probably see, I think this extends far past wrestling and into our cynical cultural values. It's not about quality and passion, it's about greed and the lulz. Again, I wouldn't even have a problem with the "getting the most by doing the least" mentality if I felt that Lesnar appreciated the business that he was getting this from in the slightest. Kevin Nash's act for the last decade of his career was "getting the most by doing the least", but at least you got the impression that he genuinely respected pro wrestling as a form of entertainment. Lesnar seems to genuinely not understand why people would want to watch a worked fight with intricate storytelling when they could just legitimately watch him toss people around and injure them.
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Post by chronocross on Aug 10, 2016 20:20:52 GMT -5
Why give 100% when 30% gets him paid and laid? More or less the old Hulk Hogan philosophy. If I can do a punch and get the same pop as a dropkick why would I do the dropkick. Pretty much, it worked like a charm for Hogan and gave him a lengthy career and the crowds loved it. As for Lesnar, he is not in it for the roar of the crowd or adulation, he just wants his check and get out of there and if he can get a deal like that, more power to him.
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canal
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Post by canal on Aug 10, 2016 20:42:45 GMT -5
Praising Brock for doing the least amount possible and getting paid the most is so weird to me. Is that where we are now? Has the corporate world beaten us down that badly? What happened to being the best you can be? Having pride in your work? Giving the people their money's worth? I guess we're far enough into the post-kayfabe world where thinking that way isn't cool anymore, but I don't buy it. If I was in that locker room, I'd be sickened by the fact that Lesnar is above the rules and can phone it in (not just physically, but creatively and psychologically as well) and still make 5 million a year when he doesn't even move the damn needle anymore. I get not faulting someone for treating it like a job and making as much money for as little work possible, but so often with Lesnar it turns into fawning over him and thinking he's super cool for it, probably out of some kind of nihilistic fantasy because people try so hard at things and feel under-rewarded, forgetting that the reward is knowing you tried your hardest and did your best, that it's about the chase. As you can probably see, I think this extends far past wrestling and into our cynical cultural values. It's not about quality and passion, it's about greed and the lulz. Again, I wouldn't even have a problem with the "getting the most by doing the least" mentality if I felt that Lesnar appreciated the business that he was getting this from in the slightest. Kevin Nash's act for the last decade of his career was "getting the most by doing the least", but at least you got the impression that he genuinely respected pro wrestling as a form of entertainment. Lesnar seems to genuinely not understand why people would want to watch a worked fight with intricate storytelling when they could just legitimately watch him toss people around and injure them. I agree, Nash was about doing the least and making the most money too, but he could also talk and understands and loves pro wrestling. Listen to a shoot interview, he really gets this stuff and can talk about the ins and outs of things for hours, about psychology and good finishes and what makes a good worker. He also put 15 years in full-time. Even now, he wants to come back to manage Dolph Ziggler because he respects him for how hard he works and how good he is. And yes, for a payday, they're adults. I just don't dig the "Brock doesn't have to try or give a shit and gets paid millions, that is so cool" vibe I get out of a lot of Brock threads.
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Post by Rudy Gobert Fadeaway on Aug 10, 2016 21:11:50 GMT -5
Yeeeeah, I can't exactly defend a guy who straight up ruined one of the most hyped up Mania matches because he felt like being selfish and lazy.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 10, 2016 21:33:22 GMT -5
I've got no issue with Brock looking at it as a paycheck. That's what it is.
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Post by xCompackx on Aug 10, 2016 21:41:04 GMT -5
Brock isn't lazy, he's just adapting to what people seem to love. "Suplex City" shirts probably sell like hotcakes, crowds happily chant it, and 2K17 seems to be based entirely around it; why change what's working? Not saying that he shouldn't try something new at some point, but he's not doing anything that other guys with a popular gimmick aren't doing.
As far as his refusal to go with Dean Ambrose's ideas, I don't know. If he had another UFC fight on his mind, I could understand him not wanting to try something unnecessarily risky. Not saying Ambrose shouldn't be upset or anything, but it sounds like a business decision.
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Post by Diamond Cutter Out of Nowhere! on Aug 10, 2016 21:49:31 GMT -5
People seem to think he's lazy I don't mind, I think they're crazy Love this reference.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 10, 2016 21:56:00 GMT -5
I've got no issue with Brock looking at it as a paycheck. That's what it is. Basically. As I said in start he goes in there when it's time and puts his all in it. Surprising to hear his attitude going into Mania but he was obviously going into business for himself at that point.
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Post by virgil on Aug 10, 2016 21:56:30 GMT -5
I don't blame him; he half-asses WM because UFC 200 was likely near finalized and why would he jeopardize that for the possibility of getting hurt in antiquated hardcore match?
The guy wants to be a UFC fighter (although that is likely no longer an option) and Vince was fine paying him to keep his image fresh in the public eye in the hopes he brought in more viewers.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Aug 10, 2016 21:59:52 GMT -5
That's BS....saying it's okay to half ass one job because of another is a cop out.
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Post by virgil on Aug 10, 2016 22:03:16 GMT -5
That's BS....saying it's okay to half ass one job because of another is a cop out. Vince could have told him to kick rocks and not OK'd the UFC deal; its the same crap as bringing back The Rock when he can't give 100% because he has to be in movie shape and not wrestling shape. Vince creates the monster himself. And at the end of they day it was supposed to be a hardcore match and I'd argue Dean wanted to do a bunch of dumbass shit that shouldn't have been done in the first place.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Aug 10, 2016 22:08:10 GMT -5
That's BS....saying it's okay to half ass one job because of another is a cop out. Vince could have told him to kick rocks and not OK'd the UFC deal; its the same crap as bringing back The Rock when he can't give 100% because he has to be in movie shape and not wrestling shape. Vince creates the monster himself. And at the end of they day it was supposed to be a hardcore match and I'd argue Dean wanted to do a bunch of dumbass shit that shouldn't have been done in the first place. 100% true and look where it got him.... Brock wellnessed UFC and all his I bring legitimacy to wwe allure has gone to shit. He can never say that ever again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2016 22:15:32 GMT -5
Yeah, some of these comments aren't making any sense in defense of Lesnar. I'm calling bullshit as well.
Take the Ambrose match for example. The goal of the match was to make Ambrose look strong while Lesnar wins. How hard would it be if Lesnar did more F5s? How hard would it be if Ambrose got in the Kimura Lock and didn't tap out and yet Lesnar broke the hold and took pity on him? How hard would it be if Lesnar took more shots to Ambrose's back with the chair enough that the crowd even starts counting that like with suplexes? How hard would it be for Lesnar to keep knocking Ambrose down and Ambrose keep getting up and Lesnar's like "Seriously kid? Come on now" as the match continues? How hard would it be to have Lesnar pin Ambrose and he'd kick out some extra times? How hard would it be to have the refs stop the match to look at Ambrose but Ambrose demands it keep going? Even with a stretcher wheeled out? How hard would it be for Lesnar to stop attacking Ambrose because he's a fighter like himself until Ambrose slaps or spits on him resulting in 1 final F5? Hell, how hard would it even have to be to let Ambrose stay in the ring and have the crowd clap and cheer Ambrose as he makes a slow walk to the back because he actually survives? Not even that but a slow crawl to the back?
See, these are things that could have happened that would keep Lesnar strong, keep his health intact but most importantly put Ambrose over. Ambrose looked far worse at the end of that. That match could have had Ambrose being dominated 90% of the time and still work. I mean these are legit ideas. I don't care who you are but if anyone says "well that can't happen because it's just a check for Lesnar and he's out to do what it do with his health" I can't rock with that. That's lazy and selfish. That's not helping Ambrose which was the goal of the match according to Meltzer. At that point it's just him being selfish. They should have let him lose the match.
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