Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,079
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 29, 2016 8:29:54 GMT -5
First, on the belt being a prop thing I can't compare it to say a lightsaber or a gun or what have you. The belts have meaning and value to the fans and in some circumstances the belt can actually draw people to a building. Nobody is buying a movie ticket because Luke Skywalker is going to use a lightsaber but a hell of a lot of people have bought tickets just because "NWA World Heavyweight Championship Match" was written on a poster. Even today a handful of fans will pay to see NWA World Heavyweight Champion Regional Indy Guy simply because of what the belt meant 30 years ago. As for my sacrilegious opinion...I've always been an attitude wrestling guy until I started watching more old school territory wrestling and I honestly think the territory days are the way wrestling should be. Everything from the 5-7 day a week tours to the keeping kayfabe and offering a realistic approach to wrestling that actually makes people say to themselves "Oh, this is for real". Instead in modern wrestling today we have outlandish stuff that isn't believable at all and is clearly a work. Why would I drop 20 dollars to see Matt Hardy at an independent where he does a gimmick that isn't realistic? Why would I get into a match between two guys who are doing crazy spot after crazy spot for absolutely no reason just to pop a crowd? How can I get into two guys hitting 15 superkicks in a match with not one of them meaning anything? No thanks. I'll go back to the days where a superplex meant something and could finish a match.So last Tuesday
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Post by Ted Sheckler on Dec 29, 2016 9:41:44 GMT -5
First, on the belt being a prop thing I can't compare it to say a lightsaber or a gun or what have you. The belts have meaning and value to the fans and in some circumstances the belt can actually draw people to a building. Nobody is buying a movie ticket because Luke Skywalker is going to use a lightsaber but a hell of a lot of people have bought tickets just because "NWA World Heavyweight Championship Match" was written on a poster. Even today a handful of fans will pay to see NWA World Heavyweight Champion Regional Indy Guy simply because of what the belt meant 30 years ago. As for my sacrilegious opinion...I've always been an attitude wrestling guy until I started watching more old school territory wrestling and I honestly think the territory days are the way wrestling should be. Everything from the 5-7 day a week tours to the keeping kayfabe and offering a realistic approach to wrestling that actually makes people say to themselves "Oh, this is for real". Instead in modern wrestling today we have outlandish stuff that isn't believable at all and is clearly a work. Why would I drop 20 dollars to see Matt Hardy at an independent where he does a gimmick that isn't realistic? Why would I get into a match between two guys who are doing crazy spot after crazy spot for absolutely no reason just to pop a crowd? How can I get into two guys hitting 15 superkicks in a match with not one of them meaning anything? No thanks. I'll go back to the days where a superplex meant something and could finish a match.So last Tuesday I don't follow the current product. Did a regular superplex finish a match in the WWE or something?
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,079
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 29, 2016 11:43:58 GMT -5
So last Tuesday I don't follow the current product. Did a regular superplex finish a match in the WWE or something? Neville beat Rich Swann with one on 205 Live.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 29, 2016 11:49:10 GMT -5
Bret Hart had better matches with members of the Kliq than members of the Kliq had among themselves.
There is nothing wrong with 'cheap' heat as long as it's used in moderation.
Crowds wouldn't 'try to get themselves over' if they hadn't spent years encouraging it during the attitude era, or if they'd give the audience better storylines and faces to get behind.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 31, 2016 14:16:44 GMT -5
I think wrestling's audience was always going to shrink a bit as time went on. Sometimes I'll listen to Observer and Chico always talks about "it's the biggest hardcore fanbase ever!" Well, honestly wrestling benefited from a "freak show" interest from the general public in its early days, and that wasn't going to last as entertainment became more sophisticated. That's why I still feel optimistic about its future, there's still a devoted and significantly large group of people who are always going to follow it.
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Post by Hit Girl on Dec 31, 2016 14:18:58 GMT -5
Bret's heel persona was his best ever.
Rather than being outraged at the Attitude Era's content, he would have been awesomely placed in the WWF to be the natural enemy to guys like Austin, DX, the Rock etc...as a self-righteous and hypocritical prick.
Give me that Bret Hart over the "I'm a role model and hero" shit any day.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Dec 31, 2016 15:56:17 GMT -5
I'm not saying it is meaningless, I am talking more about people getting offended at the use of the word "prop". Lightsabers are a pretty big deal, the Batmobile has a lot of emotional currency with fans, and they do matter. I am just saying that it's not disparaging in and of itself. It matters, but less than the actual part the wrestler is playing. Like, think about when Warrior was champion. The feud between Hogan and Earthquake was more important than Warrior's activity during that same period. The actual champion's push is more important than the belt itself, and when people talk about hot potato-ing and devaluing, I feel like that's often missing the point of the role the belt is playing to begin with. But that really ties into the real difference. There's a slight difference between "a prop" and "a MacGuffin." Yes, a MacGuffin is a prop- but at the same time, it's the prop that the entire crux of your story is built around "every cast member wants to control this for his or herself"- and if you booked the title right, that IS what a title is. If the title is a MacGuffin- anyone who controls the title is inherently trying to reach their goal to be at the top and be the champion. If it's just a prop- you can decide "oh, let's hand it to [x] this week, it doesn't MEAN anything..."...or the related problem of turning the title from a prop to an accessory right now of "We want to get this flailing guy over...let's give them the title and hope being champion makes people care." The lesson the WWE took away from the push to get Daniel Bryan to main event Wrestlemania wasn't to strike while the iron is hot with talent, it was to double down on their attempts limit the overness of talent before it becomes a problem. Just saying that was the case is a little unfair- just since we've seen the paradigm shift of WWE's hiring, even from 2013 on. Before Daniel Bryan (or CM Punk) broke out, there was basically a trickle of indy stars who'd make it to the WWE, and they'd likely be a midcarder. Now, on the other hand, the WWE is signing and scouting far more of the top indy promotions, bringing top indy names in- often AS their indy name and gimmick without a change, and treating them as big deals quickly. Which ties to an actual sacreligious wrestling opinion that can be more than just responses: -Just because Cesaro isn't the WWE Champion and/or Roman Reigns isn't at a table next to Virgil on the indy scene after he was driven from the business in despair, that does NOT MEAN that WWE doesn't give indy darlings an absolute fair shake to make it to the top of the company.
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Post by fuzzywarble, squat cobbler on Dec 31, 2016 16:00:08 GMT -5
Aaron Rex needs a gimmick to be good
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Post by fuzzywarble, squat cobbler on Dec 31, 2016 16:13:38 GMT -5
Salvatore Sincere was a great character and should have received a push as the Attitude Era was beginning. They could have offered up a look into his mafia upbringing and hinted at him putting hits on other wrestlers.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 1, 2017 5:06:03 GMT -5
Aaron Rex needs a gimmick to be good You're right, but I'm not seeing the sacrilege here. Maybe in the beginning of 2016 sure, but TNA thoroughly exposed Sandow in record time.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 4, 2017 10:00:26 GMT -5
If NXT is going to be run and treated like a third brand, they should separate it entirely from the performance center and compensate the talents appropriately, not just the big indy names but up and down the card.
Dixie Carter came into wrestling with the best of intentions, but long term exposure to veteran wrestling people will turn most people into carny scumbags. That said, at her worst she was still better than Heyman, whose massive shadiness just gets ignored because he's a great booker, well, when he has the benefit of top notch talent to work with.
WCW deserve more credit for their part introducing latin american talent to the mainstream US Audience. People give ECW credit for introducing all these luchadores while the act many of them had already worked for WCW gets dismissed, 'When World's collide', Eric Bischoff, Nitro's expansion and Konnan had more to do with their hiring than their stints in ECW.
Juventud Guerrera could have been the face of the Cruiserweight division if WCW had invested in getting him some English and acting lessons. He had the kind of looks that make women and teens go weak at the knees and charisma that shone through both a mask and the language barrier. Sure he was a little nuts, but that's not uncommon in wrestling.
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The Blue Nova
Don Corleone
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Post by The Blue Nova on Jan 4, 2017 12:42:15 GMT -5
Jimmy Hart was way better in memphis just like Duggan was better in mid south
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edgehead
Dennis Stamp
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Post by edgehead on Jan 4, 2017 13:02:37 GMT -5
I thought the Shawn/Razor ladder match was fine, but Bret/Shawn in 1992 revolutionized ladder matches.
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Post by Just call me D.j.m. on Jan 4, 2017 13:04:42 GMT -5
Renee Young is not really attractive. And she's got a personality that can only be categorized as "basic af".
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 4, 2017 13:09:48 GMT -5
Jimmy Hart was way better in memphis just like Duggan was better in mid south That helps me segue into mine. I like Jimmy Hart as a manager more than Heenan, and I like Cornette as a manager more (particularly with the Midnight Express) than Heenan, too. I still like Heenan, and his managing of Andre leading up to WM3 sold the shit out of that angle, that cannot be overstated, but he's more a commentator in my head than manager, when I think back on his stuff.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Jan 4, 2017 15:42:31 GMT -5
Sable's 'The Grind' move is one of the least sexy things I've ever seen.
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MrElijah
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Post by MrElijah on Jan 4, 2017 15:50:36 GMT -5
Jimmy Hart was way better in memphis just like Duggan was better in mid south That helps me segue into mine. I like Jimmy Hart as a manager more than Heenan, and I like Cornette as a manager more (particularly with the Midnight Express) than Heenan, too. I still like Heenan, and his managing of Andre leading up to WM3 sold the shit out of that angle, that cannot be overstated, but he's more a commentator in my head than manager, when I think back on his stuff. And this brings me to my opinion: -Heyman was the best manager at building up a match -Heenan was the best during a match(not that he couldn't sell you a match) -Cornette was a master at both(talk like nobody's business and can take a asskicking)
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Jan 4, 2017 16:29:56 GMT -5
Sable's 'The Grind' move is one of the least sexy things I've ever seen. I have to comment on this one. In high school, I still watched WCW, and while it was talked about a lot, WWF talk at school was really picking up, so one night during a commercial break, I flipped over to Raw. What I saw was a woman who could pass for the bitchy aunt of one of my friends ask, "Do you want to see Sable do The Grind?" A few seconds later. I flipped back to WCW and stayed there for a couple years or so.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 4, 2017 19:18:13 GMT -5
Sable's 'The Grind' move is one of the least sexy things I've ever seen. I have to comment on this one. In high school, I still watched WCW, and while it was talked about a lot, WWF talk at school was really picking up, so one night during a commercial break, I flipped over to Raw. What I saw was a woman who could pass for the bitchy aunt of one of my friends ask, "Do you want to see Sable do The Grind?" A few seconds later. I flipped back to WCW and stayed there for a couple years or so. I thought Luna Vachon was more attractive, but between her, Sherri, and Bull Nakano, I've apparently got kind of a type.
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
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Post by Ozman on Jan 4, 2017 19:26:41 GMT -5
Jimmy Hart was way better in memphis just like Duggan was better in mid south That helps me segue into mine. I like Jimmy Hart as a manager more than Heenan. I'll do you one better, Jimmy Hart got his guys over more than Heenan ever did!!! Most of Heenan's guys were already over when he started managing them (Andre, Perfect, Flair, etc), while Jimmy Hart got many guys over who had no business getting over (Honky Tonk, Rougeaus, Danny Davis, etc). Hart's trademark jackets also helped get his guys over.
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