FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,432 
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Post by FinalGwen on Sept 1, 2016 12:48:48 GMT -5
Even before Bayley, Commissioner Mick Foley managed to smile a lot, be jolly and happy and comedic and he made it work.
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Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
didn't want one.
I could write a book about what you don't know!
Posts: 12,465 
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Sept 1, 2016 13:04:42 GMT -5
It was his stupid hair that made people boo.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Sept 1, 2016 13:50:39 GMT -5
I find her annoying AF. Same as early Rock. Same as Angles character. But shes over cause:
1.) Girl.
2.) Culture today.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 1, 2016 13:57:24 GMT -5
I find her annoying AF. Same as early Rock. Same as Angles character. But shes over cause: 1.) Girl. 2.) Culture today. Is there a history of women having an easier time getting over? |
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Sept 1, 2016 14:15:09 GMT -5
I find her annoying AF. Same as early Rock. Same as Angles character. But shes over cause: 1.) Girl. 2.) Culture today. Is there a history of women having an easier time getting over? You tell me guy, I've only been watching since the 90s. |
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Post by Zombie Mod is not a ghoul. on Sept 1, 2016 14:22:30 GMT -5
Is there a history of women having an easier time getting over? You tell me guy, I've only been watching since the 90s. was it in black and white back then? |
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 1, 2016 14:30:56 GMT -5
I find her annoying AF. Same as early Rock. Same as Angles character. But shes over cause: 1.) Girl. 2.) Culture today. If that's the case, then culture has changed for the better. I don't quite understand what you mean here, are you implying that it's an unfortunate trend a bubbly, positive persona is more likely to get over now? And women's wrestling before NXT in the States has been pretty blah as a whole, and not treated with much respect. Exactly what are Bayley and the rest of the women's division doing wrong here? In the Attitude era, it suuuuucccked for them. |
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Post by MrElijah on Sept 1, 2016 14:40:15 GMT -5
I see Surfer Sting/Steamboat in Bayley(and Becky).
White meat, loves the fans and fun to watch.
But they have moments of layers(example Steamboats family, Sting using the paint to represent all of his fans) and moments of fire that you WANT to see them kick ass and take names(examples, Sting vs. Vader and Steamboat vs. The Dangerous Alliance)
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 1, 2016 14:46:33 GMT -5
I see Surfer Sting/Steamboat in Bayley(and Becky). White meat, loves the fans and fun to watch. But they have moments of layers(example Steamboats family, Sting using the paint to represent all of his fans) and moments of fire that you WANT to see them kick ass and take names(examples, Sting vs. Vader and Steamboat vs. The Dangerous Alliance) Ricky Steamboat could be downright vicious when getting revenge on rivals. There was one match he had with Don Muraco where he starts choking him with his ring gear. Some of his flurries today would make fans wonder if he was turning heel. |
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Post by MrElijah on Sept 1, 2016 14:51:10 GMT -5
I see Surfer Sting/Steamboat in Bayley(and Becky). White meat, loves the fans and fun to watch. But they have moments of layers(example Steamboats family, Sting using the paint to represent all of his fans) and moments of fire that you WANT to see them kick ass and take names(examples, Sting vs. Vader and Steamboat vs. The Dangerous Alliance) Ricky Steamboat could be downright vicious when getting revenge on rivals. There was one match he had with Don Muraco where he starts choking him with his ring gear. Some of his flurries today would make fans wonder if he was turning heel. Steamboat tried to kill Rude at least 3 times during the Dangerous Alliance feud. Or the time he screamed bloody murder on Tully Blanchard, IIRC, for dissing his brother and his gym. |
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Sept 1, 2016 14:54:21 GMT -5
I find her annoying AF. Same as early Rock. Same as Angles character. But shes over cause: 1.) Girl. 2.) Culture today. If that's the case, then culture has changed for the better. I don't quite understand what you mean here, are you implying that it's an unfortunate trend a bubbly, positive persona is more likely to get over now? And women's wrestling before NXT in the States has been pretty blah as a whole, and not treated with much respect. Exactly what are Bayley and the rest of the women's division doing wrong here? In the Attitude era, it suuuuucccked for them. It's unfortunate for me, because I find bubbly, positive personas lame. Its not unfortunate for her or her fans. And the positive, bubbly twist certainly aint working for Apollo. I didnt bring up the rest of the division so I dont know why you're putting words in my Mouth. Also, I'd say it was subjective for how it went for Ladies during the Attitude Era. |
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Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
When Toronto sports teams lose, Alison Brie is sad
Posts: 11,089
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Sept 1, 2016 14:59:01 GMT -5
Like others have said, context matters.
Rocky Maivia being a smiley, happy-go-lucky babyface was part of the problem, but it wasn't the problem.
Cool. He's a third-generation wrestler, but who is he? He had no established personality or motivations beyond that. He was bland as anything.
As for DDP, his WWE run was crippled by the fact that we never saw the super-over babyface from WCW. They never presented him as anything close to that. We never got "The People's Champion" DDP. We got that awful stalker angle and then he got the motivational speaker gimmick. They didn't even let him keep his easily identifiable theme music.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Sept 1, 2016 15:04:06 GMT -5
If that's the case, then culture has changed for the better. I don't quite understand what you mean here, are you implying that it's an unfortunate trend a bubbly, positive persona is more likely to get over now? And women's wrestling before NXT in the States has been pretty blah as a whole, and not treated with much respect. Exactly what are Bayley and the rest of the women's division doing wrong here? In the Attitude era, it suuuuucccked for them. It's unfortunate for me, because I find bubbly, positive personas lame. Its not unfortunate for her or her fans. And the positive, bubbly twist certainly aint working for Apollo. I didnt bring up the rest of the division so I dont know why you're putting words in my Mouth. Also, I'd say it was subjective for how it went for Ladies during the Attitude Era. The characters and stories were sexist on a level humanity had yet to reach. I have a hard time going back to a lot of it without cringing. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 15:07:37 GMT -5
I don't get the argument against that Barley is back to happy supper go lucky hugging dork. A big part of WWE's fanbase don't watch NXT and these main roster call ups is a reintroduction of the same character to a wider audience.
Like I loved how they had Sami Zayn feud with Kevin Owens right away when he made it on the main roster but as my casual fan friend said it best,why should we care he hates Kevin Owens so much if we don't know him. Like yeah these character reintroduction are painful but necessary.
But Bayleys positivity and quirkiness just seem real. Like not fake. Like if Bayley legimately came up with everything about the character and actually enjoys hugging fans. Where in The Rocks case he just felt fake. Like it's like the expression on how someone would rather support a politician that stands for the opposite in everything you believe in as long they believe in themselves then the one who says the right things but doesn't seem to believe in the things they are saying.
So yeah I think Bayley would of gotten over somewhat of a degree and would of contrasted well in the 90's. Sad thing is I can see her spot dictated as a babyface or a heel by how much cleavage she's willing to show, or how much sexual innuendo she is willing to say, or how much of fanservice teases she's willing to do.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,294
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Post by The Ichi on Sept 1, 2016 15:20:40 GMT -5
She's got a character. Rocky's character was literally just that he smiles. He may as well have been just a pair of lips.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 1, 2016 15:25:17 GMT -5
Is there a history of women having an easier time getting over? You tell me guy, I've only been watching since the 90s. Nah, Jackson, you go ahead, since you brought it up. |
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Sept 1, 2016 15:41:38 GMT -5
You tell me guy, I've only been watching since the 90s. Nah, Jackson, you go ahead, since you brought it up. No. Cause I literally didn't. You did. |
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Sept 1, 2016 18:40:36 GMT -5
Nobody in the Attitude Era wanted happy shit, because at that point WWE was tapping into the same edgy counterculture stuff as early South Park and Marilyn Manson. WWE had been floundering as a cartoon and needed edginess, and Rocky Maivia was the opposite of what anyone in the crowd wanted to see paired with a huge push that nobody wanted. It wasn't playing into any of his talents, sure, but at the time culture just did not want a hero like that. He became one of the top faces of an era making crass, immature jokes about everyone he met for a reason, and while yes it had everything to do with how talented he was when he hit his stride and played to his strengths, it reached the heights it did because it was exactly what people wanted. There's a reason that the Attitude Era is the only one marked for having the ascension of absolutely zero pure babyfaces to the top spot. Stagnant as Cena was, he was still on top and a lot of crowds cheered him through his long run, and then we had Daniel Bryan, who people got the f*** behind. I feel like nowadays things are a lot less focused on a specific cultural zeitgeist, and so there's an openness to getting behind loathsome heels like AJ and Seth, faces with an edge like Ambrose, and traditional underdog faces like Sami and Bayley.
The difference between Bayley and Apollo Crews is in character. Bayley plays the underdog well, has a reason to smile with all of the fun-loving imagery of hugs and wavey tube guys in her entrance. Her gimmick is one that she as a performer can actually pull off in ways that even if the culture were more open to it, The Rock never could have. But she also has a fire in her. She doesn't smile every waking moment, and in a big fight, we see the seriousness behind it all. she stops smiling, she starts focusing on the fight, and when she wins, we can see that joy fill her again as she celebrates. It's something that she as a performer can do well and it fits. One of the things that made her matches a highlight of Takeovers is that she is good at telling a story not just with her moves, but with everything else she does around them.
Apollo Crews, on the other hand, has no character or layers. He just smiles. Comes out. Loses. There's nothing to him. He is a man in desperate need of a character and a hook that just isn't there, and the second he stops being Generic Flippy Muscle Man is when he's actually going to stand a chance at getting over.
It's not about how much a character smiles, it's about why they smile. That's what Rocky and Apollo lacked, and that's what Bayley has in spades.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 19:23:20 GMT -5
Nah, Jackson, you go ahead, since you brought it up. No. Cause I literally didn't. You did. Your first point was that she got over because she's a girl. Literally: 1. Girl He said if there's a history of wrestlers getting over for merely being a girl. You responded that you've only watched since the '90s. That would mean that you wouldn't be able to be to give a fair answer. Now, your argument could be that nowadays she's getting over for acting like a girly-girl. That she's cute and hugs people and has the side pony tale, etc. as has been stated. She brings in a certain demographic, i.e. younger girls, women that want to be empowered, "feminist" men for want of a better term, people who think she's cute, etc. Maybe it is. Just saying girl is a bit misleading in your intent. Still, no point in arguing and I don't agree with using the "Jackson" part there. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2016 20:13:08 GMT -5
She's got a character. Rocky's character was literally just that he smiles. He may as well have been just a pair of lips. Explains that "How's Your Lips?" shirt he had for 5 minutes. |
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