How do so many indies go bankrupt?

[Ted Sheckler]

Not talking about the big indies because that's easily understandable but what about these little indies who aren't using big name talent and just use local talent and sell their tickets.

I can't imagine the talent on a show like this are making over 500 dollars combined. I assume a lot of guys are making 20-50 dollar paydays with rookies not being paid at all, I assume the building hire, legality and everything else to get the show going on is probably another 1000-1500 so lets call it 2000 total.

That's not that much of an overhead for a business that has many revenue streams. If you think about it, a wrestling company has the potential to sell merchandise (Both mainstream and their own), tickets, DVD's (Which cost to produce but these days it's costing about 5 dollars to produce one), food and drink (Which you can mark up because it's an event) and then if you can pull a half decent crowd you can talk sponsorship, vendor space etc etc. Of course if you bring in a "name" talent then you can add autograph fees, photograph fees, seminar fees etc etc

Also, and I'm not sure if this is just in my country but as a small business these companies would get tons of tax deductibles. Advertising for example would warrant a deduction, the purchasing of items such as wrestling rings would result in a deduction, travelling for work purposes, replacement of equipment etc etc

So to me, it doesn't make sense that these indies that draw 150+ struggle. Am I missing something here? Someone fill me in.

[01010010 01101001 01100011]

Simple start with no money and make less money. Let's use your figure of $2000 in expenses, if you charge $10 a ticket you need 200 people to break even on the night. Merch and DVDs aren't happening at that level (unless it is coming from the talent which you won't see a cut of), even if they do, that is an added expense on top of the $2k you need to make up so forget that. Let's say you only get 150 people, you're now $500 in the hole. Next show, if you can afford it and people are put off by not getting paid the last one, you aren't going to hire as many people, tickets are going to go up and attendance might stay the same but probably shrink, put costs around $1600 plus you still owe $500 for the previous show so you need $2100 this time just to break even.

[Tony Schiavontay]

Too many of them make the mark mistake of paying the wrestlers as opposed to running off with all the money at intermission. How are you supposed to keep promoting shows if you're just handing off all your profits to these guys like that?

[Chairman of the Board]

I get where you're coming from but you're waaaaaay waaaaay off.

Talent makes WELL OVER $500 combined. Think about it let's say you AVERAGE $40 a worker, which is CHEAP unless you're in a shitty market with shitty workers. TEN workers is $400, that's 5 singles matches. You need AT LEAST 7-8 without a name so, let's say 7. You book SEVEN matches at $40 a worker, you're at $560 for MINIMUM. So let's say realistically with a tag match and fluff you're at $600. That's for a teeny tiny show with guys all working for peanuts. No real draws. good luck selling tickets..

$600 for talent in the tip of the iceberg. Remember, that doesn't include refs, announcers, managers, and people working the floor and backstage. 

Other expenses...
Ring = Hundreds to rent
Venue = Hundreds usually $500-over 1k
Building insurance - hundreds

Does the venue have chairs? bleachers? tables?
Anything you need, get ready to RENT IT.

Food, Drink, DVD, Merch...all MORE OVERHEAD. Sure DVDs costs $5 a pop but how many are you selling at a show with a few hundred people? 10? 20?

I've run shows and worked behind the scenes at shows for YEARS. It's is SO MUCH more expensive than you're giving it credit for.

Even if you say "ok $2000 out the door" for costs, if you're selling 200 GA tickets at $10 you're breaking even. 200 isn't a simple draw with $50 talent. I've only lost money on ONE show I've ever run and it's because I was blessed with great venues, decent media connections, and LOTS of people who worked for very little behind the scenes. Plus, you need people you can trust for many jobs. 

For weeks of work I would walk about with maybe a few hundred dollars after taking care of everybody that helped out.

Think about it you need people to; take tickets, make food, sell food, sell merch, do security, manage the floor, work music and video, help backstage, REFS, ring announcer, and so much more.

It's easy to go bankrupt with just ONE big blunder or miscalculation. Actually forget about bankrupt, these promotions start bankrupt and try to find a way to solvency. That my friend is INDY wrestling. Not losing money is the main goal. 

[Chairman of the Board]

Here is a hypothetical low budget show.

$1000 for talent
- This includes 10 $40avg workers, 4 $100 Avg workers, and $200 for refs/announcers/managers
- This is pretty bare bones budget wise

$1500 for ring/venue cost.
- This includes $500 venue, which is CHEAP
- This includes $500 ring, rails, entryway which you'll be lucky to get a decent ring
- This includes $500 for ancillary venue costs; chairs, tables, lights, cameras.
- Most of this is bottom of the barrel pricing for outsourcing these costs. If you invest in equipment yourself it'll be much more.

So that's $2500... 250 GA tickets... let's say 200 people IF you uncharge 1st row. That is not an easy task. Also, with a $500 venue you MAY NOT be able to hold 200-250 people. This also doesn't include a REAL venue which will want a $1,000,000 insurance policy.

The one caveat is IF you have a connection with a real wrestling school. I was close with Paul Roma and his students and that gave me great consistent talent at minimal costs. If you don't you're going to have an uphill battle. 

[Ted Sheckler]

Perhaps it's cheaper in Australia (My country) for some of that stuff. There are a lot of buildings here that are just happy to have someone in the area who is willing to entertain and will put you in a 500 seat auditorium with all the seats, sound equipment etc for about 250 bucks. They'll also sell tickets through their reception area for free with the idea being they'll make money from the rental fee, food, drinks etc. Community Halls are a little less in terms of price (Probably about 200) and don't have someone to sell tickets at reception but I think 500-1000 is very high unless you're in a capital city (In my country at least)

I think in terms of talent you're probably correct. The way my very local indy does it is they bring in 3-4 popular locals from the city and then fill out the card with local talent that is quite average and students from their wrestling school. They do use Madison Eagles, Robbie Eagles and Shazza McKenzie who can pull in a crowd but I doubt they'd be getting Madison and Shazza for anything under 100 even if it is local. I doubt the others are getting paid at all though, that seems to be how most indies work unfortunately.

In my 2000 dollar estimate that is assuming that a ring is already owned and that the staff such as ticket takers, cooks etc would be friends/family of the promoter as it is in most indies. Of course if we're hiring professional people for those roles the number is going to be much higher, I agree with you there.

I think your most interesting point is finding talent that can draw but also work cheap. TONS of indies have come to my town and brought their shit local talent and they've killed the town. I remember a promoter coming here in 2007 and in that year he used a ton of Dragon Gate guys and Sabu who was fresh from WWE. When using those guys he drew 350-400 people to a 500 seat building, 3 years later when it was just him and his locals the people stopped coming to the point that he was doing 100-150. The local talent wasn't enough to hook the local fans and they had to pack up and move on.

[Joe Neglia]

Sept 15, 2016 21:22:57 GMT -5 Chairman of the Board said:

Here is a hypothetical low budget show.

$1000 for talent
- This includes 10 $40avg workers, 4 $100 Avg workers, and $200 for refs/announcers/managers
- This is pretty bare bones budget wise

$1500 for ring/venue cost.
- This includes $500 venue, which is CHEAP
- This includes $500 ring, rails, entryway which you'll be lucky to get a decent ring
- This includes $500 for ancillary venue costs; chairs, tables, lights, cameras.
- Most of this is bottom of the barrel pricing for outsourcing these costs. If you invest in equipment yourself it'll be much more.

So that's $2500... 250 GA tickets... let's say 200 people IF you uncharge 1st row. That is not an easy task. Also, with a $500 venue you MAY NOT be able to hold 200-250 people. This also doesn't include a REAL venue which will want a $1,000,000 insurance policy.

The one caveat is IF you have a connection with a real wrestling school. I was close with Paul Roma and his students and that gave me great consistent talent at minimal costs. If you don't you're going to have an uphill battle. 

One big thing you're leaving out: Advertising. Even in today's internet-driven world, most independents wouldn't survive two shows in a row if they depended on online advertising about their show, especially - ESPECIALLY - if you think all you need to do is create a cheap website and then go to a bunch of wrestling message boards announcing your card. No matter who you have on the card, it will tank. Just look at how many people showed up for that Kurt Angle/Cody Rhodes show recently, or that huge convention/show a couple of weekends ago that drew something like 30 people. And printing out a couple hundred flyers and leaving them on the first couple hundred cars in the parking lot at the RAW show going on three towns over isn't going to do it, either.

[Ultimo Gallos]

I am gonna use NWA Bayou Independent Wrestling as an example. Mostly cause I got to know the owner/promoter well.

He was running 12 shows a year between two towns. He lived in West Monroe LA and would run 7 shows a year there. The venue he used could hold 600 tops but he never got over 250 for a show there.The only name ,if you can call him that,that he used was VordelL Walker.Who is 200 to 300.Josh also would bring in lots of TX guys.Who ended up costing a bit more than other guys cause of them having to travel a bit further.

He would also run 5 shows a year in my town. Which is in Mid Mississippi. Now the venue he used here could easily hold 1000 if set up. He at first would set up 300 chairs and after 2 shows was getting at least 250 people a show. And a few times getting 400.He was using most of the same guys he used in West Monroe,plus a handful of local MS guys.

For 2 years he was doing good. Had become known as the big fed with can't miss shows in MS and becoming that way in LA.Then a local church in my area wanted to co promote a show. They wanted to do it on a Wednesday night,during the annual spring fair. And instead of having it inside the Civic center like every other BIW show,they held it in the rodeo ring out behind the civic center.Also they were suppose to pay to bring in Ted Dibiase SR and for a much bigger and better lighting set up and music set up.

With it being a Wednesday night the crowd was small. Maybe 120 people. Then cause of the fair and the way the rodeo arena is set up at least half of the people there never bothered to pay for a ticket. The church was suppose to have someone at the entrance checking tickets,mostly cause before the show Ted Sr did a bit of preaching that part was free. The church was suppose to provide people to clear everyone out to make sure everyone that came in for the wrestling part had bought a ticket.

The show was a decent show. And Josh announced that in a month BIW would be back for a big show inside the civic center. 3 weeks before that show he canceled it. And since then BIW has run 2 shows in LA. Both bombed.

Now for months we kept hearing he was having money issues and would be back.Then I found out what happened.While the West Monroe shows were a bit cheaper for him to put on,not having to rent a ring or have talent drive for a long distance,the smaller crowds was causing those shows to either barely break even or lose money. THe shows in my town he was making good off ticket sales and the merch tables. But was using most of the profit from those 5 shows a year to keep the West Monroe end going.

Then the church show happened. He only sold 50 tickets. The church ended up only paying half of Ted Sr's fee. And nothing on renting the better lights and sound system. Since it was during the Fair the city charged more than normal to rent the rodeo arena. Which the church was suppose to help pay part of. And they didn't.

Just shows how quickly from one bad show a fed can die.Sadly since then no fed has tried to come back to my town. They all know that wrestling draws in this town. The main issue right now is there are an indy fed that runs most of the towns south of us. Then another that runs most of the towns north of us.Each considers my town the other feds territory. So they don't want to "invade" another feds territory. It looks like if we ever get any wrestling back in this town it is gonna be one of the South LA feds that comes up. Voodoo Wrestling out of NOLA has been wanting to run a show up here. But right now they don't have the money.

[Chairman of the Board]

Sept 15, 2016 22:31:15 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

Sept 15, 2016 21:22:57 GMT -5 Chairman of the Board said:

Here is a hypothetical low budget show.

$1000 for talent
- This includes 10 $40avg workers, 4 $100 Avg workers, and $200 for refs/announcers/managers
- This is pretty bare bones budget wise

$1500 for ring/venue cost.
- This includes $500 venue, which is CHEAP
- This includes $500 ring, rails, entryway which you'll be lucky to get a decent ring
- This includes $500 for ancillary venue costs; chairs, tables, lights, cameras.
- Most of this is bottom of the barrel pricing for outsourcing these costs. If you invest in equipment yourself it'll be much more.

So that's $2500... 250 GA tickets... let's say 200 people IF you uncharge 1st row. That is not an easy task. Also, with a $500 venue you MAY NOT be able to hold 200-250 people. This also doesn't include a REAL venue which will want a $1,000,000 insurance policy.

The one caveat is IF you have a connection with a real wrestling school. I was close with Paul Roma and his students and that gave me great consistent talent at minimal costs. If you don't you're going to have an uphill battle. 

One big thing you're leaving out: Advertising. Even in today's internet-driven world, most independents wouldn't survive two shows in a row if they depended on online advertising about their show, especially - ESPECIALLY - if you think all you need to do is create a cheap website and then go to a bunch of wrestling message boards announcing your card. No matter who you have on the card, it will tank. Just look at how many people showed up for that Kurt Angle/Cody Rhodes show recently, or that huge convention/show a couple of weekends ago that drew something like 30 people. And printing out a couple hundred flyers and leaving them on the first couple hundred cars in the parking lot at the RAW show going on three towns over isn't going to do it, either.

Advertising is a possible expenditure. I personally paid for TV spots during wrestling before. A smart local INDY will be using FREE advertising as much as possible. For example submitting the event to different local papers, radios stations, and college campuses. Also, while it's technically illegal I've but flyers cars near the venue and local WWE events in the area of my show. It really pays to create media inroads. While I know you say it doesn't get the job done, if you're venue is NEAR a city which has WWE shows it IS VERY EFFECTIVE if you have a former WWE worker on the flyer. I've had lots of success flying Bridgeport, CT and drawing 25-50 of those people to a smaller venue in 15 minutes away on the train line.

One example of FREE advertising is I used to volunteer to record events for the #1 local FM station. They had a publicity stunt and threw a wedding at the beach. After that it was much easier to get on the air. We did hook them up by providing excellent call ins like Piper, but I digress. 

Also, if you're talking about the Angle/Rhodes match from the Northeast Wrestling show this past month you are off by about 1500-2000 on the gate. 

One thing people forget about it that for many big stars, when they are brought into the shows often they'll split merch with the promoter. For example, we had Liger on the shows last month and he handled the 8x10's but the T-shirts weren't his. When I used to run shows I loved having Hacksaw Jim Duggan. I would to to Home Depot and get a 100 of mini 2x4s cut for like $50. Then he'd autograph them for people and we would sell them for $5-$10, then you just split the money. It's great for him because it's extra cash and it's great for me because it offsets the cost of travel. 

But we agree, it's much easier to go bankrupt running wrestling shows than making money. Ask every US wrestling promotion not named WWE. 
 

[Deleted]

Sept 15, 2016 22:31:15 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

Sept 15, 2016 21:22:57 GMT -5 Chairman of the Board said:

Here is a hypothetical low budget show.

$1000 for talent
- This includes 10 $40avg workers, 4 $100 Avg workers, and $200 for refs/announcers/managers
- This is pretty bare bones budget wise

$1500 for ring/venue cost.
- This includes $500 venue, which is CHEAP
- This includes $500 ring, rails, entryway which you'll be lucky to get a decent ring
- This includes $500 for ancillary venue costs; chairs, tables, lights, cameras.
- Most of this is bottom of the barrel pricing for outsourcing these costs. If you invest in equipment yourself it'll be much more.

So that's $2500... 250 GA tickets... let's say 200 people IF you uncharge 1st row. That is not an easy task. Also, with a $500 venue you MAY NOT be able to hold 200-250 people. This also doesn't include a REAL venue which will want a $1,000,000 insurance policy.

The one caveat is IF you have a connection with a real wrestling school. I was close with Paul Roma and his students and that gave me great consistent talent at minimal costs. If you don't you're going to have an uphill battle. 

One big thing you're leaving out: Advertising. Even in today's internet-driven world, most independents wouldn't survive two shows in a row if they depended on online advertising about their show, especially - ESPECIALLY - if you think all you need to do is create a cheap website and then go to a bunch of wrestling message boards announcing your card. No matter who you have on the card, it will tank. Just look at how many people showed up for that Kurt Angle/Cody Rhodes show recently, or that huge convention/show a couple of weekends ago that drew something like 30 people. And printing out a couple hundred flyers and leaving them on the first couple hundred cars in the parking lot at the RAW show going on three towns over isn't going to do it, either.

If I don't know about it, I can't buy a ticket.

The circus gets huge crowds every year because there are posters EVERYWHERE. Grocery stores, barber shops, etc. You can't miss 'em.

(It is a tradition around Thanksgiving, but still, not everybody remembers or knows that, especially if they're new to the area.)

[Joe Neglia]

Sept 16, 2016 15:23:58 GMT -5 Chairman of the Board said:

Advertising is a possible expenditure. I personally paid for TV spots during wrestling before. A smart local INDY will be using FREE advertising as much as possible. For example submitting the event to different local papers, radios stations, and college campuses. Also, while it's technically illegal I've but flyers cars near the venue and local WWE events in the area of my show. It really pays to create media inroads. While I know you say it doesn't get the job done, if you're venue is NEAR a city which has WWE shows it IS VERY EFFECTIVE if you have a former WWE worker on the flyer. I've had lots of success flying Bridgeport, CT and drawing 25-50 of those people to a smaller venue in 15 minutes away on the train line.

One example of FREE advertising is I used to volunteer to record events for the #1 local FM station. They had a publicity stunt and threw a wedding at the beach. After that it was much easier to get on the air. We did hook them up by providing excellent call ins like Piper, but I digress. 

Also, if you're talking about the Angle/Rhodes match from the Northeast Wrestling show this past month you are off by about 1500-2000 on the gate.

My mistake on the Angle/Rhodes deal, I was under the impression they got less than 300 to it for some reason.

Anyway, back on topic. Free advertising certainly helps, but the success stories utilizing it as the main resource are far and few between. Mostly, what I'm making a point on is the tendency to half-ass things. You seem to have a good handle on your location and environment and have put forth a lot of extra effort going through channels that don't occur to most guys trying to start or run an indy. You're doing good because from what I'm reading, you're not half-assing things. I've seen situations where a promoter literally thought all he had to do was jump on every wrestling message board he could find, start a thread about the show and create a facebook page for the promotion/show. Spent 3 months shilling online, had about half a dozen ex-WWE/WCW/ECW guys on the card (this was circa 2005 or so) and ended up drawing 37 people.

Another example I've been peripherally involved with: Guy holding a card in Terrell, a town about 30 miles east of Dallas. When RAW was here once, he drove up here with 200 or 250 flyers, whatever the ONE package of computer paper he bought held. Left flyers (which could be turned in at the gate for $5 off ticket price) on the first 200-250 cars he came across in the American Airlines parking center and drove home. That (alongside the usual Facebook page and some social media postings) was as far as he went with advertising. Come the day of the show, all of THREE of those $5-off flyers were turned in at the gate).

Things like Twitter, Facebook and places like this certainly have their role in advertising, but most of the time, it can't be the only option, and too many would-be promoters think it is.

On the other hand, there was a show here about five or so years ago that ended up pulling in about 500 people with a card lacking any sort of star power (the biggest names on it was, I think, Mike Foxx, whose only real claim to fame was being the local that Raven forced to kiss his foot on Heat that one time). It was actually about twice the crowd he was counting on, but he was really quirky with where he advertised. I don't think he did any parking lot papering at all, but was allowed to leave a stack of flyers next to register at places like gaming stores, comic shops and porn stores. He didn't do any actual TV ads but one of his guys was an Operation Kindness (no-kill shelter) volunteer who was part of the OK group that showed off potential adoptees on the Saturday afternoon news show; dude saw the opportunity and talked them into letting him be the one in front of the camera, where he somehow found a way to turn the talk toward the show for about half a minute. Between the flyers and that one televised 30 seconds, they ended up turning a really nice profit.

[Ultimo Gallos]

See when BIW was running my town,Josh would put ads in both of the weekly free papers. Paid for some radio ads and it worked. Sure his first show here only drew 80. Part of that was running a show on a Sunday during football season,but a big part of it was the last 2 feds to run this town were horrible. After that first show word of mouth got out how good BIW was. Their second show was 220 or so. And it kept growing.

[efarns]

Running a business is not easy and entertainment is an especially tough business. I don't see a lot of business-minded people getting into wrestling. Think about it this way: Ted Turner made a lot of money - except in wrestling.

[Tiger Millionaire]

And not withstanding if you book a bigger name talent to sell the thing, and the guy no shows or goes through the motions.

[Ted Sheckler]

Sept 19, 2016 11:37:51 GMT -5 Tiger Millionaire said:

And not withstanding if you book a bigger name talent to sell the thing, and the guy no shows or goes through the motions.

Most towns don't care. I've gone to many indy shows with "name" talent and almost every guy (Unless they're Japanese) have gone through the motions. Raven and Sabu were the worst, I remember Raven doing about 2 minutes of actual in ring work in a tag match and Sabu worked a singles main event that lasted about 8 minutes.

The audience didn't really care in both circumstances. Unless you're a hardcore fan or the WWE/TNA/Whoever regularly visit your town you're just happy to have a TV guy in your town performing live. They come in, do their trademark spots, sell some merch and go home. 

[Chairman of the Board]

Sept 19, 2016 11:37:51 GMT -5 Tiger Millionaire said:

And not withstanding if you book a bigger name talent to sell the thing, and the guy no shows or goes through the motions.

That's another issue. 

Sometimes promoters get into who THEY want on the show and not who WANTS to be on the show. 

Savy workers know if you're a "money mark" and will overpay. 

For example I had a decent show (Cage Main Event) and I wanted a "name" for a double main event spot.

I was running out of CT so here was my personal checklist for finding the right guy.

1) He is in driving distance. I know not everybody has this luxury but if you can book a decent name and NOT have to pay for flight and hotel consider it a huge victory. So that eliminated MANY workers I would have loved to bring in. 

2) I wanted to keep it under $1000 closer to $500. So that gets rid of most guys right off WWE, also most TNA talent. Some guys like Robbie E. work for less, but I wanted a mainstream draw from WWF/E. 

3) At this point I was running out of options, CT only had a few guys and all were booked or weren't worth the money. Stevie Richards was local and would come out below budget, but he was booked and we've has him before. Bob Backlund was local, but I knew I really wouldn't get what I was looking for out of a manager spot or a promo -> chicken wing gag. 

So guess who I ended up booking...a guy that everybody seems to complain about, a guy that everybody has a bad story about, Brutus "The Barber" Beefcake. At the time he was living in MA. Instead of beating around the bush I got his contact and called him personally. I explained EXACTLY what I was looking for.

"Look, I just need 8-10 minutes with a veteran worker, you're going over and I need you to cut somebodies hair post match. You'll be going on later in the show. Doors are at 5pm so if you want to sell merch I'll get you a table for 8x10's and autographs you can keep 100%. If not, just try and be there by 730 bell.You're going to be a centerpiece on the flyer and hopefully that'll help get people there to buy stuff." 

Guess what, Beefcake drove himself, showed up before 5 to set up his table, hung in the locker room and chatted with people, put his match together, had fun, and put on a show for everybody. I paid him moments after he walked backstage so he could pack up and go after showering. 

Honestly, he was easy to work with and did a great job.

Workers get PISSED when they are the 12th match on a 5 hour show that some promoter is losing his ass on. Then they also have to WORRY about being paid in full.


 

[Chairman of the Board]

MODS

You could merge this thread and officialfan.proboards.com/thread/474625/official-run-indy-show-thread I started a while back. Lots of great info on the subject in that thread too.

[James Fabiano]

Or people go public with their dirty laundry and other people believe it.