Why can't the WWE do heel vs heel?

[Tiger Millionaire]

Same reason they can't do face vs heel or face vs face.

[Magician under the moonlight]

The only times I remembered it working are Benoit/Angle and JBL/An, but then again in the latter, people really hated JBL so anyone who went against him was getting cheered.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

After their confrontation in the opening segment I was hyped for Miz vs AJ. Then when Harper appeared I was hyped for Harper vs AJ.

Instead we got the worst and most boring option of Ziggler.

[horseface]

When Orton and Edge were teaming as Rated RKO they had a match at one point, and it actually did really well and fans were into it. But typically in wrestling heel vs heel isn't something they go with.

[schizo]

Pretty sure Trips/Angle from royal rumble 2001 was heel Vs heel, and that was a damn good match

[chazraps]

Dec 14, 2016 11:17:27 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

It very rarely works out well.

This is true. I wish it weren't the case, but can totally understand it based on attempt that I even thought would work and be good on paper.

Closest thing we've had recently that seemed like it would be a slam dunk, especially based on the introduction of the conflict, was JBL challenging Orton for the belt in 2008, but that had to be made into a Fatal 4 way with the quickness.

That said, heels hating heels adds a really fun dynamic to multi-man matches, and that's really where they should stay. You can have the intriguing, rare and cool spots without the worry of having to get there with the build alone.

[chazraps]

Dec 14, 2016 20:31:09 GMT -5 Ryback on a Pole! said:

After their confrontation in the opening segment I was hyped for Miz vs AJ. Then when Harper appeared I was hyped for Harper vs AJ.

Instead we got the worst and most boring option of Ziggler.

We're getting Ziggler for a free TV match in two weeks, which opens up Ambrose, Miz, and Harper for an actual program.

It's really the best way to test it without ruining what could be a great long-term program by shortening it to two weeks.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Didn't they do Sheamus vs Orton when Orton was at the tail end of the shit with Legacy. I mean he played the face in the match as I believe that was testing the waters to see if a Randy face turn could work

[corndog]

Dec 14, 2016 18:04:13 GMT -5 Dang! said:

The simple answer is that it would turn guys like AJ face when they go against really hateable heels like Miz and they don't want that. Remember how the crowd reacted to the face vs. face match with Bryan and Succotash? Pretty much the whole crowd turned against Roman and he hasn't recovered from it.

Good point, they pretty much stop doing face vs face since Bryan vs Reigns, but they did it quite a few times before that. Hell, Sheamus never recovered from squashing Bryan at WM and he was the face, while Bryan was the heel. As far as AJ is concerned, that is why he might be better off in a heel vs heel feud. Ambrose was one of the hottest faces on Raw before the brand split, but since his feud with AJ, he has cooled off significantly. Also, who do you think will get cheered in AJ vs Ziggler?

That is why, I really think the answer would have been AJ vs Harper. AJ is going to have a significant section support him regardless, but I also think Harper would get some cheers in the match too since he has never held a belt and because of his booking would be an underdog. Also, if Harper does end getting booed, he's a freaking heel, it won't hurt him at all, unlike the fans booing a face.

[rnrk supports BLM]

It's not WWE, but I really think Matanza vs. Mil Muertes from earlier this year is the gold standard of how to do a compelling, believable heel vs heel feud. They're two brutal, badass monsters who have just as much reason to want to destroy each other as they do to destroy any of the babyfaces they fight, and the sheer spectacle of seeing them tear it up and finding out who'll come out on top is enough to get you invested in watching, even if they're both villains.

The only problem is that it requires characters who are actually credibly over, and WWE hasn't managed to create any of those in years.

[JoDaNa1281]

It's not WWE, but I remember Roode & Aries having an entertaining match or 2 against each other in TNA when both were heels.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Dec 14, 2016 23:16:43 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

The only problem is that it requires characters who are actually credibly over, and WWE hasn't managed to create any of those in years.

I can't agree with this. AJ and Miz are both over enough and have interesting enough characters for a heel vs heel feud to work.

[Ryback on a Pole!]

Dec 14, 2016 21:31:40 GMT -5 chazraps said:

Dec 14, 2016 20:31:09 GMT -5 Ryback on a Pole! said:

After their confrontation in the opening segment I was hyped for Miz vs AJ. Then when Harper appeared I was hyped for Harper vs AJ.

Instead we got the worst and most boring option of Ziggler.

We're getting Ziggler for a free TV match in two weeks, which opens up Ambrose, Miz, and Harper for an actual program.

It's really the best way to test it without ruining what could be a great long-term program by shortening it to two weeks.

I don't trust WWE vto do an actual feud between them though.

Harper is tied down with been the 3rd wheel with the Wyatts and Miz looks like he may be going to feud with Crews.

I hope I'm wrong. Ambrose, Harper and Miz all gunning for AJ`s title would be a great story and give us some great matches. Throw Ziggler and Elsworth in there and bring back the Championship Scramble.

[Dang!]

Dec 14, 2016 22:54:07 GMT -5 corndog said:

Also, who do you think will get cheered in AJ vs Ziggler?

Depending on the crowd it will either be split or they'll crap all over Ziggler.

[AFN: Judge Shred]

Dec 14, 2016 23:32:43 GMT -5 Ryback on a Pole! said:

Dec 14, 2016 21:31:40 GMT -5 chazraps said:

We're getting Ziggler for a free TV match in two weeks, which opens up Ambrose, Miz, and Harper for an actual program.

It's really the best way to test it without ruining what could be a great long-term program by shortening it to two weeks.

I don't trust WWE vto do an actual feud between them though.

Harper is tied down with been the 3rd wheel with the Wyatts and Miz looks like he may be going to feud with Crews.

I hope I'm wrong. Ambrose, Harper and Miz all gunning for AJ`s title would be a great story and give us some great matches. Throw Ziggler and Elsworth in there and bring back the Championship Scramble.

Or the much rumored Elimination Chamber.

[4TheGlory]

Edge and Orton had a classic Heel vs Heel match the week after HBK/Cena went an hour

[Deleted]

The only company that did it well was ROH. But it worked because the presentation of the entire company was different and it was a true alternative. Like the company sold itself as a sport including title matches and promised and delivered on great in ring action.

It doesn't really work in the WWE unless the company switches to a more reality based/MMA style hybrid presentation. The heel vs. heel feuds that do work are either spectacles, a tag team breaking up, jobber heel getting his ass kicked, or there's a carry over storyline based on a program with a babyface see Angle vs. HHH.

Everyone is listing examples but everyone is forgetting the most notable recent example of a Heel vs. Heel in a PPV WWE Championship Match. You ready for it. It was Orton vs. Sheamus. Yup...and that was only really done as filler since it was The Royal Rumble. And even then they were slightly teasing a Legacy Breakup

[Adam Black]

The last straight up heel v heel match I remember is Big E v Jack Swagger. As u can see that was met with apathy.

[Urethra Franklin]

Dec 14, 2016 21:30:20 GMT -5 chazraps said:

Dec 14, 2016 11:17:27 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

It very rarely works out well.

This is true. I wish it weren't the case, but can totally understand it based on attempt that I even thought would work and be good on paper.

Closest thing we've had recently that seemed like it would be a slam dunk, especially based on the introduction of the conflict, was JBL challenging Orton for the belt in 2008, but that had to be made into a Fatal 4 way with the quickness.

That said, heels hating heels adds a really fun dynamic to multi-man matches, and that's really where they should stay. You can have the intriguing, rare and cool spots without the worry of having to get there with the build alone.

Couldn't agree more.

If heels are as unlikable as they're supposed to be, then they wouldn't get along with each other.

I know it was partly just a RAW vs. SD thing, but the fact that AJ and Jericho still hated each other's guts despite both being heels in the lead-up to Survivor Series was great. That's how it should be.

[segaz]

It can work just like any other match. Just needs time and effort built into it. Saying that though, I recall seeing heel v heel matches throughout Nitro and Raw before.