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Post by corndog on Dec 14, 2016 11:04:37 GMT -5
Basically a response to the #1 contenders on Smackdown, but why can't there be heel vs heel in really anything in the WWE now? In the 80s we regularly got to see heels face each other, especially for mid-card titles. In the 90s, it could hard to tell who was the face, especially in matches like Bret/Austin at WM13, or in the faction wars of both WCW/WWE. But now, we never see it other than in 4-corners matches and battle royals. Personally I think the audience wants it, so why not?
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FAR5222
El Dandy
Counted 237 Bros. SWERVE Got no cookie for it.
Posts: 7,889
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Post by FAR5222 on Dec 14, 2016 11:12:37 GMT -5
Vince is old and doesn't want to try stuff out unless forced too.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 11:14:10 GMT -5
I think WWE has a hard enough time getting fans to boo heels against faces that putting heels in situations where you have no choice but to cheer for them isn't gonna help them.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 14, 2016 11:17:27 GMT -5
It very rarely works out well. You don't have two people try to be the lead when dancing, and the heel is typically the one who sets the pace of a match. So, in addition to audience reactions meaning either apathy or latching onto one as designated face, one of them is going to need to essentially be the face of the match, anyway. You may as well start out with a heel and face.
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Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on Dec 14, 2016 11:19:50 GMT -5
Because that requires effort
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Post by corndog on Dec 14, 2016 11:38:01 GMT -5
It very rarely works out well. You don't have two people try to be the lead when dancing, and the heel is typically the one who sets the pace of a match. So, in addition to audience reactions meaning either apathy or latching onto one as designated face, one of them is going to need to essentially be the face of the match, anyway. You may as well start out with a heel and face. But they have done plenty of face vs face matches, essentially wouldn't heel vs heel be the same dynamic with a lot more cheap shots?
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 14, 2016 11:43:45 GMT -5
It very rarely works out well. You don't have two people try to be the lead when dancing, and the heel is typically the one who sets the pace of a match. So, in addition to audience reactions meaning either apathy or latching onto one as designated face, one of them is going to need to essentially be the face of the match, anyway. You may as well start out with a heel and face. But they have done plenty of face vs face matches, essentially wouldn't heel vs heel be the same dynamic with a lot more cheap shots? Like, it's not impossible, but it'd need a very particular kind of heel dynamic. You could probably get away with, for example, Miz versus Braun, where Miz would have to try to think and cheat his way out of getting decimated, but that's also probably going to lead to Braun getting cheered in the example, because the crowd is going to want the pesky heel to get his arms ripped off. If you have two faces, you can do stuff like the mutual respect spots, but do two heels like sneer at each other after some grapple exchange? Crowds would probably not know what to make of it.
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Post by sunnytaker on Dec 14, 2016 11:44:34 GMT -5
well I did at least like that the last two standing were both faces so there was some doubt as to who would win instead of the usual face vs heel as the last two standing the winner being known based off of whether the champ was a face or heel like they normally do
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Post by vincecornette on Dec 14, 2016 11:44:59 GMT -5
A Miz v AJ feud would be Golden. Both currently on fire. Both great on the mic, both can go in the ring. Whoever loses the fans win.
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Post by corndog on Dec 14, 2016 11:53:43 GMT -5
But they have done plenty of face vs face matches, essentially wouldn't heel vs heel be the same dynamic with a lot more cheap shots? Like, it's not impossible, but it'd need a very particular kind of heel dynamic. You could probably get away with, for example, Miz versus Braun, where Miz would have to try to think and cheat his way out of getting decimated, but that's also probably going to lead to Braun getting cheered in the example, because the crowd is going to want the perky heel to get his arms ripped off. If you have two faces, you can do stuff like the mutual respect spots, but do two heels like sneer at each other after some grapple exchange? Crowds would probably not know what to make of it. Just use the Miz/AJ segment as an example. Start off with mutual respect and then it builds into becoming more competitive and guys trying to one up each other. It usually does end up with one getting more of the cheers and essentially playing the face. If you have someone like the Miz, he won't get cheered against anyone. AJ, however, probably will, unless the other heel is popular. In the 80s this was done a lot, basically to see who they could turn face when needed. Luke Harper would have been interesting, since they are kind of playing into him being the odd man out with the Wyatts. Where either you make the turn or tease it, which would also build interest into that character. Some of the best heels in wrestling are the ones that the fans want to cheer, but can't because of their actions.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,932
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 14, 2016 12:02:36 GMT -5
Best heel vs heel feud I know was Rick Martel vs Shawn Michaels, and even then it was largely played for laughs
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Dec 14, 2016 12:09:48 GMT -5
Does the Corporation vs. Ministry feud from 1999 count as heel vs. heel?
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Post by Aboutreika18 on Dec 14, 2016 12:23:16 GMT -5
There was that classic mini-feud between three heel stables in 1997, between DX, Hart Foundation and Nation of Domination.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 14, 2016 12:42:02 GMT -5
I could have sworn Owens/Rollins was.
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Post by CuJ0 Will Keep Dancing on Dec 14, 2016 12:57:57 GMT -5
People still cheer for AJ anyway, might as well just work him as a tweeter facing off with everyone as champion. In addition to creating more interesting feuds this would mean more guys could work with one of the best wrestlers on the planet right now and this could only be beneficial to them.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,112
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 14, 2016 13:05:02 GMT -5
I still want to see a feud based around two heels competing to see who can be the bigger asshole. I want to see them getting increasingly petty and ridiculous as the feud goes on. Cartoonishly evil stuff like trying to run over children with a Steamroller.
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RIHT
Hank Scorpio
Wanted a title with "YOU'RE WELCOME!" Close enough.
Hey-yo.
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Post by RIHT on Dec 14, 2016 13:47:43 GMT -5
This reminds me of when Ziggler faced Del Rio in 2012 in a title shot contract on a pole match to face Sheamus on Smackdown. It led to a tug of war for the contract, only for Sheamus to interrupt and just decide to give both of them a shot in a triple threat.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 14, 2016 15:24:26 GMT -5
It only works if the two heels have significant followings, to the point where either guy could turn face. But generally, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
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Dang!
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,276
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Post by Dang! on Dec 14, 2016 18:04:13 GMT -5
The simple answer is that it would turn guys like AJ face when they go against really hateable heels like Miz and they don't want that. Remember how the crowd reacted to the face vs. face match with Bryan and Succotash? Pretty much the whole crowd turned against Roman and he hasn't recovered from it.
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ayumidah
Wade Wilson
Don't bother pretending I seem fine, I like that I'm a mess
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Post by ayumidah on Dec 14, 2016 18:27:02 GMT -5
It very rarely works out well. You don't have two people try to be the lead when dancing, and the heel is typically the one who sets the pace of a match. So, in addition to audience reactions meaning either apathy or latching onto one as designated face, one of them is going to need to essentially be the face of the match, anyway. You may as well start out with a heel and face. But they have done plenty of face vs face matches, essentially wouldn't heel vs heel be the same dynamic with a lot more cheap shots? They still do what they can to avoid most face vs face matches too though. Like having Ziggler lose to Miz before the Sami match, and taking Alpha out before facing Heath and Rhyno for the tag titles. Even then, the exceptions are few and far in between and usually reserved to those they trust to get a positive reaction either way.
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