"The Greatest Womens Rivalry in WWE History!"

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Now if you want the magnum opus example of why Sasha/Charlotte is a feud I didn't like, this is it. THIS, is the reason, because it never got to BE a rivalry, in WWE's minds, it was HISTORY before it ever started, and just slapping special matches on it and having them wrestle for half a year and thinking that's all you need to make a timeless rivalry happen. They're truly insane if they really think that and I guess they are. And that's gotta be one of the most "WWE overselling their product" statements I've heard from them yet...

They couldn't even say ONE OF the Greatest, which all things considered despite how much I just outright hated the result and overall matches they had, I could see at least an argument for. But THE BEST? Here's Wrestling Rule 101, if you call something the best, you're gonna immediately make a large majority hate it because you're forcing such an opinion on people and presenting it as fact when there are usually or in some cases like this one, LARGE holes in your statement... 

I feel bad for Bayley, because that was clearly a fed line. I mean HISTORY is the tagline of the month, and they might as well put over the Sasha and Charlotte Dynamic more right? To the point that none of the girls can even match up to this seeming Mountain WWE has made themselves on this feud.

I don't know this shit really bugs me. I get WWE is proud of the talent pool they have with the Women right now, but the way they've really pounded home Charlotte as Ric Flair's Legacy and Sasha in some weird way Eddie Guerrero's Legacy and making them a Nepotistic Monopoly on the Division for near half a year with "HISTORY MAKING" talk to the equivalent of a seal barking the entire time, for it to just have that be the cherry on top and know that's how WWE is going to try and blur history for their own oblivious goals, sheesh...

Is it Tuesday yet?

[Mozenrath]

It just is disappointing.

Imagine if Rock and Triple H debuted and wrestled each other nonstop for like a year's time. They eventually did wrestle a lot, but they crossed paths for a bit, then, you know, did other shit for a while. Hint hint, WWE. They didn't go from their IC title ladder match right into the Ironman Match, etc. 2000's feud was only after both were established and had plenty of other feuds.

[KobashiChop]

It's worse for everyone who watched the Sasha vs Bailey feud play out on NXT and watched all 4 Horsewomen kill it every night. And it felt organic and you were watching something truly special develop.

This just feels like they picked their favourite 2 and just thought "let's just keep calling it a big deal".

The term Making History (TM) summed it up in another thread. It's become a thing with WrestleMania Moments.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Look, I get it. They rode the metaphorical horse until it died, then beat the corpse into a powder with these two. They've been feuding the whole time of the new brand split. And as a result it's gotten overhyped to hell. But we can't discount the lack of personnel in the division. We really can't. They are trying run a division on SIX ACTIVE WRESTLERS. Charlotte, Banks, Bayley, Jax, Fox and Brooke. That's it. Right now there are only TWO babyfaces for RAW. TWO! Trying to run a division on that number of people, trying to keep everyone strong (other than Fox and Brooke, the designated ditch-diggers of the division) but at the same time, keeping it not repetitive... It's just unsustainable to me until we get some more people to choose from. And then they compound the thing by constantly holding off on this Emma return, seemingly for LOLs. SmackDown got lucky, with the same number of people, by having a couple of completely fresh feuds that hadn't even been touched in NXT in Lynch/Bliss and Nikki/Carmella, but even they are running into the same problems of repetitive match combinations now.

And for all that this feud has been hyped up, and I'm not disputing that... It's kind of working here. The week they were in the main event with the street fight, the ratings held up better than usual for that tricky third hour. There's no horrid hype backlash in live crowds like there was with Cena and Reigns either. Either way, they're finally moving on, Bayley's going to get her run, Jax is going to get her run... It'll get better, hopefully.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Dec 20, 2016 2:37:28 GMT -5 Mozenrath said:

It just is disappointing.

Imagine if Rock and Triple H debuted and wrestled each other nonstop for like a year's time. They eventually did wrestle a lot, but they crossed paths for a bit, then, you know, did other shit for a while. Hint hint, WWE. They didn't go from their IC title ladder match right into the Ironman Match, etc. 2000's feud was only after both were established and had plenty of other feuds.

Yeah, blowing through a Hell in a Cell, Title Change, Street Fight, Title Change, and Iron Woman Match, Title Change in like two months isn't what I call a great rivalry or even good booking, it's more like Sensory Overload and overcompensation for a feud that really doesn't have much behind it but you just have to sell as HISTORIC, because Sasha is HHH's Favorite and Charlotte is a Flair... that's just really what it feels like, and to me, it's a (That word some people hate me using) DISGRACE to Becky and Bayley for the work they equally put in to that resurgence, and even more so Emma, who came before them and also got eyes on this revival of Womens Wrestling with the likes of Paige as well.

Putting all your eggs in one basket and doing stuff just because you can does not equate to HISTORY or a Good Rivalry let alone the best one, and no matter how much WWE wants to try and pat themselves on the back for that feud, it's really gonna be looked at by most as a failure of what could have been, and what it disappointingly was...  

[Deleted]

The only thing I watched of any of that whole segment was seeing the replay of the end of the Bayley / Charlotte match, so let me just say... What sense does it make at all to have the plucky underestimated face get a non-pin on the cocky heel champion due to the ref not paying attention? That's completely backwards from logical booking. Either have the plucky face get the fluke win - though not much of a fluke given Bayley keeps beating Charlotte over and over - with the heel swearing vengeance, or have the heel steal the win then act like hot shit over it. You can't do both, that's just stupid and awkward.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Dec 20, 2016 3:01:33 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

Look, I get it. They rode the metaphorical horse until it died, then beat the corpse into a powder with these two. They've been feuding the whole time of the new brand split. And as a result it's gotten overhyped to hell. But we can't discount the lack of personnel in the division. We really can't. They are trying run a division on SIX ACTIVE WRESTLERS. Charlotte, Banks, Bayley, Jax, Fox and Brooke. That's it. Right now there are only TWO babyfaces for RAW. TWO! Trying to run a division on that number of people, trying to keep everyone strong (other than Fox and Brooke, the designated ditch-diggers of the division) but at the same time, keeping it not repetitive... It's just unsustainable to me until we get some more people to choose from. And then they compound the thing by constantly holding off on this Emma return, seemingly for LOLs. SmackDown got lucky, with the same number of people, by having a couple of completely fresh feuds that hadn't even been touched in NXT in Lynch/Bliss and Nikki/Carmella, but even they are running into the same problems of repetitive match combinations now.

And for all that this feud has been hyped up, and I'm not disputing that... It's kind of working here. The week they were in the main event with the street fight, the ratings held up better than usual for that tricky third hour. There's no horrid hype backlash in live crowds like there was with Cena and Reigns either. Either way, they're finally moving on, Bayley's going to get her run, Jax is going to get her run... It'll get better, hopefully.

I don't dispute the problem that the division is a shitshow in terms of talent depth, but even throwing stuff in like Jax in a Triple Threat or Wildcard Dana Brooke turning on Charlotte which they teased multiple times and never did, and of course, BAYLEY, would have made this far better and more intricate and would have made everyone and the title feel more important

What we got was two women fighting over a belt long after it was interesting while others like Bayley, Jax, and Emma sat on their hands, and yeah Emma was injured but she hasn't been for like two months now...

I know some people like it and more power to them, but I can't ignore how to me, damaging this could be for the long road of this division to do all this shit at once with only two women and basically blow the metaphorical load super early. I HOPE we're on the road to basically building this division in a meaningful manner, because to me, Charlotte vs Sasha is more a dark period where it was stuck in one continuous loop than anything HISTORIC...

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Dec 20, 2016 3:09:56 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

The only thing I watched of any of that whole segment was seeing the replay of the end of the Bayley / Charlotte match, so let me just say... What sense does it make at all to have the plucky underestimated face get a non-pin on the cocky heel champion due to the ref not paying attention? That's completely backwards from logical booking. Either have the plucky face get the fluke win - though not much of a fluke given Bayley keeps beating Charlotte over and over - with the heel swearing vengeance, or have the heel steal the win then act like hot shit over it. You can't do both, that's just stupid and awkward.

WWE feels like they can have their cake and eat it too with this division. like they can just throw stuff there and throw in taglines of History and Controversy or that everythings just gonna work, but this is especially prominent on RAW.

Keep in mind while we had Sasha vs Charlotte, Crisis of Infinite Feuds, we also had the big side feud for RAW, where Smackdown has a story of trying to figure out who attacked Nikki Bella with Natalya her friend being the main suspect and Carmella, her usual blood feud rival, being the whistleblower, we have RAW where Alicia Fox was mad at Bayley over... giving Cedric Alexander a Plush Teddy Bear...

BOOKING! IT'S WACKY! 

[Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal]

Sheesh. This is why we can't have nice things...

Charlotte and Sasha HAS been the best women's rivalry. These are the most athletic women and they're doing the most groundbreaking matches in the division's history. I don't lose sleep over how they set that narrative or loading us with gimmick matches in one year. They do it with men each year, why not set the precedent that this can happen to women too? They're simply resetting the narrative on women's wrestling in WWE and with the women's division expanding rapidly next year on the WWE network, we're gonna see a LOT more of this anyway. Kudos to WWE.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2016 3:01:33 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

Look, I get it. They rode the metaphorical horse until it died, then beat the corpse into a powder with these two. They've been feuding the whole time of the new brand split. And as a result it's gotten overhyped to hell. But we can't discount the lack of personnel in the division. We really can't. They are trying run a division on SIX ACTIVE WRESTLERS. Charlotte, Banks, Bayley, Jax, Fox and Brooke. That's it. Right now there are only TWO babyfaces for RAW. TWO! Trying to run a division on that number of people, trying to keep everyone strong (other than Fox and Brooke, the designated ditch-diggers of the division) but at the same time, keeping it not repetitive... It's just unsustainable to me until we get some more people to choose from. And then they compound the thing by constantly holding off on this Emma return, seemingly for LOLs. SmackDown got lucky, with the same number of people, by having a couple of completely fresh feuds that hadn't even been touched in NXT in Lynch/Bliss and Nikki/Carmella, but even they are running into the same problems of repetitive match combinations now.

And for all that this feud has been hyped up, and I'm not disputing that... It's kind of working here. The week they were in the main event with the street fight, the ratings held up better than usual for that tricky third hour. There's no horrid hype backlash in live crowds like there was with Cena and Reigns either. Either way, they're finally moving on, Bayley's going to get her run, Jax is going to get her run... It'll get better, hopefully.

I think Raw still doesn't have much of an excuse. I don't think Charlotte and Sasha feuding since the draft is necessarily a bad idea, it was just poorly executed. Just like Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said, they made up their minds on this feud being historic before it even started. It's no different to me from Edge vs. Cena - it lasted ages and when they were wrapping it up they kept telling us "this is the most heated rivalry since Steve Austin vs. The Rock." Literally telling us that because they didn't have the confidence to let it stand on its own. WWE picked up on the scent of what UFC accomplished with Rhonda Rousey years too late, and they didn't have faith that by just giving these women the avenue to perform was enough, so they beat us over the head with it to their own detriment when they didn't have to do that.

When the draft took place everyone was lamenting that Smackdown got a raw deal, that Raw is the stacked roster, and Raw definitely has the better women wrestlers. I don't think anything that anyone's done on Smackdown has compared to the matches Sasha and Charlotte have had, or really showed the potential to. Yet Smackdown is the more palatable division because they all have unique characters in a hotly contested division where you can clearly see everyone (minus Naomi for some reason) has their eyes on the prize. On Raw, they ignore weeks of "we want Sasha" chants because they can't do more than one thing at a time, and put her in the title scene cold with no real story to it simply because she's "The Boss," and at this point they put Bayley on the bench when they could be feuding her against Nia, or Alicia for a longer feud, or jobber matches, or something to keep her in the conversation so when it's her time it actually makes sense, and isn't just a "my turn now" thing. 2 faces and 4 heels is a good balance for what WWE wanted this year, for their "historic" feud between Sasha and Charlotte, and for Bayley to be Wrestlemania ready.

It's really a shame, because when they were all the rage on NXT, you saw the writing on the wall for when they hit the big stage, and there's been flashes of brilliance here and there but it's mostly as depressing as my imagination believed it would be. They only get one crack at making a good first impression, and it's a good thing the women are as good as they are or this would be a complete flop, but they've sort of failed upwards, they can't keep taglining their way through everything or people are really gonna start to turn on this crap.

[Texas Tornado]

It's the Cena/Orton feud all over again. The company went so over the top to promote that rivalry that it became less believable as time went on.

[MAGGLE]

I am so sick of people complaining about the greatest womens rivalry in WWE history just because the booking has been bad:

1. Best matches in the WWE right now, guys like Owens, Rollins etc are wrestling like their asleep. Those two just haf a MOTYC as ALWAYS and people just say "omg hot potato titlezz" .

2. People saying Charlotte is a bad promo... yeah in 2015 she was. When you see her promo now and say fhat you HAVE to change the channel? Are you even watching the product??? When Foley, Reigns, Bayley, Seth etc open their mouthes I want to change the channel.

3. Only hot feud on Raw, no one cares about Owens and Jericho vs Seth and Reigns...NO ONE, Rusev vs Enzo is a joke, Cruiserweights dont get me started, but THIS is what you complain about on a daily basis???

I am not one of those stupid Social Justice Warriors but sometimes I really question where the problem lies here.

[Zone Was Wrong]

Honestly, while I am annoyed at the feud that never ends, I can't help but sit back and enjoy the fact that at least I can tune in and watch two women going at it in a blood feud kicking each others butts night in and night out. There was a time I couldn't put a name to many of the "divas" that would come out nor could I tell you the champion at the time. We've come a long way from some dumb ideas and I can at least be thankful for what we are being given. Though.....If I hear the word historic one.....more....time.....

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Dec 20, 2016 3:17:17 GMT -5 Slammy Award-Winning Cannibal said:

Sheesh. This is why we can't have nice things...

Charlotte and Sasha HAS been the best women's rivalry. These are the most athletic women and they're doing the most groundbreaking matches in the division's history. I don't lose sleep over how they set that narrative or loading us with gimmick matches in one year. They do it with men each year, why not set the precedent that this can happen to women too? They're simply resetting the narrative on women's wrestling in WWE and with the women's division expanding rapidly next year on the WWE network, we're gonna see a LOT more of this anyway. Kudos to WWE.

As I said before, just because they've done these matches doesn't make it the best rivalry or even make the feud great given the context and presentation of them to me and others who have expressed criticism of it

Also don't pull the "This is why we cant have nice things" BS, feel free to enjoy it all you want, to me this isn't and wasn't a nice thing, it was a waste of everyones time so WWE could jerk off to HISTORY MAKING MOMENTS at the expense of everyone else.

Bayley vs Sasha was and will be a way better and better told Rivalry than this shit, and they didn't need a Street Fight or a Hell in a Cell to convey their feud together, and they ad the overall better Iron Woman Match. And yeah you can throw the "NXT isn't really WWE" argument out there as pitiful as it is, but facts are facts, I've seen better Womens wrestling this year, from the same Woman they've stuck on this higher plain and this overrated nepotistic feud with Charlotte where they can wave around their arms and go "LOOK HOW GROUNDBREAKING THIS IS" when it's a heap of shit.

So no, no Kudos to WWE, when it's been done better this very year and they couldn't top it on their Main Product, and made the Women Involved, The Division, and the Title look like shit. And if the lot more we see is in the same vain of "Run the match into the ground and trade the title back and forth devaluing it even more than it already has been and make us seven time champions each" then no thanks.

And if you need any further backing, Big E took a god damn shot at how ridiculous it was tonight, and Nia Jax, Emma, and Summer Rae also all expressed their negativity towards it, when your own employees are pissed, I ain't handing out Kudos like this is some grand thing. Again, if you found something good in it, cool, but don't act like this was some grand perfect thing free of being judged for what it is.    

And also just for a P.S., I hate when they do this type of shit with the Men too, it doesn't make it ANY different whether it's a Guy feud being run into the ground or the Women having a feud that is being run into the ground, I praise neither, it's shitty booking, and if this is the re-imagining of the Womens Division WWE has planned for the future, we're in for a god damn headache of a ride in my opinion.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2016 4:06:16 GMT -5 MAGGLE said:

I am so sick of people complaining about the greatest womens rivalry in WWE history just because the booking has been bad:

1. Best matches in the WWE right now, guys like Owens, Rollins etc are wrestling like their asleep. Those two just haf a MOTYC as ALWAYS and people just say "omg hot potato titlezz" .

2. People saying Charlotte is a bad promo... yeah in 2015 she was. When you see her promo now and say fhat you HAVE to change the channel? Are you even watching the product??? When Foley, Reigns, Bayley, Seth etc open their mouthes I want to change the channel.

3. Only hot feud on Raw, no one cares about Owens and Jericho vs Seth and Reigns...NO ONE, Rusev vs Enzo is a joke, Cruiserweights dont get me started, but THIS is what you complain about on a daily basis???

I am not one of those stupid Social Justice Warriors but sometimes I really question where the problem lies here.

I agree with you that the matches have been great,and Charlotte/Sasha wrestle each other in a harsher, more believable style than a lot of the super choreographed stuff that's around them. And I agree with you that Charlotte is way better on the mic than she gets credit for. But a good story is what tips matches over the edge and stand the test of time for me, and Charlotte/Sasha just haven't had a good feud. It hasn't been a well good story and hence my investment in the matches aren't there. They have had great matches in spite of it but so do a lot of people. It grades high on a curve but as a standalone feud it was ineffective to me. They were too overbearing with their intentions and I can't overlook my annoyance with that.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Dec 20, 2016 4:06:16 GMT -5 MAGGLE said:

I am so sick of people complaining about the greatest womens rivalry in WWE history just because the booking has been bad:

1. Best matches in the WWE right now, guys like Owens, Rollins etc are wrestling like their asleep. Those two just haf a MOTYC as ALWAYS and people just say "omg hot potato titlezz" .

2. People saying Charlotte is a bad promo... yeah in 2015 she was. When you see her promo now and say fhat you HAVE to change the channel? Are you even watching the product??? When Foley, Reigns, Bayley, Seth etc open their mouthes I want to change the channel.

3. Only hot feud on Raw, no one cares about Owens and Jericho vs Seth and Reigns...NO ONE, Rusev vs Enzo is a joke, Cruiserweights dont get me started, but THIS is what you complain about on a daily basis???

I am not one of those stupid Social Justice Warriors but sometimes I really question where the problem lies here.

Look if I have to explain any further why I and others think this has been horrible from way more than a Booking Standpoint I'm just going to be repeating myself. But as it stands, people feel differently than you, maybe have a thicker skin about opinions? Because obviously you feel way different than others, and while that's not a bad thing, you attacking people who feel differently puts your own argument into the ground.

To YOU, everything's great, you are not everyone. So at this point if you like it so much and it annoys you that much and you know that this will be a thread talking about the negative aspects of this feud, you don't have to click it, nor read the complaining, it's a big forum dude. Enjoy it, but don't expect me to bend my view or others to based on your own viewpoints. People don't do that for how I feel, you won't do that just because I say it sucks, and others like me also won't do that just because you say it rocks because everything else on RAW sucks in comparison, because to me, that's not an argument, that's just expanding the problem or trying to shaft the blame.

But whatever, as I said, no need to take it so personally, Wrestling is a very wide plateau of how people like and take to something. You're passionate about this, but so am I on the opposite end, I'll agree to disagree with you, but don't act like this is mindless complaining, because I put a hell of a lot of thought into why I don't like this feud, especially since I don't even hate either woman.

Opinions man, it happens.

[machomuta]

Yeah, another whining thread from cjb01.


WWE didnt say any thing wrong. The Charlotte/Sasha feud hae been great and has overshadowed your boy Owens.

[Big Bad Kahuna]

well it actually is, even if they're forcing it...if you add their NXT rivalry it is the best rivalry between two women in WWE history besides Trish/Lita and in front of Alundra/Bull, Stephanie/Trish or Sasha/Bayley (as of now)

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Dec 20, 2016 4:57:29 GMT -5 Big Bad Kahuna said:

well it actually is, even if they're forcing it...if you add their NXT rivalry it is the best rivalry between two women in WWE history besides Trish/Lita and in front of Alundra/Bull, Stephanie/Trish or Sasha/Bayley (as of now)

But keep in mind they said THE BEST, not one of, the best, and them saying that is gonna result in well, immediate disagreement due to the examples you even just listed itself.

[Capt Lunatic]

Excellent thread OP! You truly understand what's important.