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Post by Viking Hall on Feb 23, 2017 10:04:10 GMT -5
This might be harder due to the country but what about Dos Caras and Alberto? I'd say Alberto has most definitely come out of the shadow and is among an elite of Mexican wrestlers to gain genuine international recognition. The other son, however El Hijo de Dos Caras hasn't lived up to either his fathers or brothers billing and is a distinctly average Heavyweight from what I've seen.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Feb 23, 2017 11:10:53 GMT -5
To this day, I'm honestly still amazed that Greg Valentine is Johnny V's son, mostly just because Greg has looked like he's 70 for over 40 years.
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Feb 23, 2017 11:21:50 GMT -5
If I recall, Greg Valentine used to be billed as Johnny Valentine's brother, presumably because they didn't want to draw attention to Johnny's age. This reminds me of the NWA saying that Ron and Jimmy Garvin were brothers, instead of saying that Ron was Jimmy's step father.
Greg Valentine had previously played a fictional Fargo brother with Don Fargo, though Jackie and Don weren't real brothers, either.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Feb 23, 2017 11:33:43 GMT -5
The biggest obstacle for Ted was that after Legacy, WWE tried to make him his father. That doesn't fit him, he's not the asshole son of Million Dollar Man, he's the polite son of Ted Dibiase the preacher. From all accounts, Dibiase Party Posse Ted was closest to his real self. It didn't help that they never really filmed any vignettes or did anything with the gimmick. His entire gimmick was he had the Million Dollar Title and Michael Cole talked about how rich he was. The original MDM would have failed if they did the same thing... instead of showing him being a rich asshole throwing his cash to get people to demean themselves and buy out a pool... etc. he was one of the biggest examples of the WWE forgetting the SHOW don't Tell rule. Yeah, but it seemed pointless to do that, since we already established that he was rich from being Ted's kid. If he did the same stuff his dad did, people would have shit on it. Hell, they even did the whole gimmick of finding his own Virgil (which carried a whole new set of problems), and crowds just didn't respond. Now, if they had made him out more to be a "New Money" type of kid (which I think they tried to do a little but kinda half assed it, IIRC), he may have had a better shot.
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Post by James Fabiano on Feb 23, 2017 11:49:31 GMT -5
Just passing references to Curtis Axel? It ain't fair, I tell ya!
And who is that guy with Henry Godwinn? (Besides his son, of course)
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Feb 23, 2017 11:51:01 GMT -5
It didn't help that they never really filmed any vignettes or did anything with the gimmick. His entire gimmick was he had the Million Dollar Title and Michael Cole talked about how rich he was. The original MDM would have failed if they did the same thing... instead of showing him being a rich asshole throwing his cash to get people to demean themselves and buy out a pool... etc. he was one of the biggest examples of the WWE forgetting the SHOW don't Tell rule. Yeah, but it seemed pointless to do that, since we already established that he was rich from being Ted's kid. If he did the same stuff his dad did, people would have shit on it. Hell, they even did the whole gimmick of finding his own Virgil (which carried a whole new set of problems), and crowds just didn't respond. Now, if they had made him out more to be a "New Money" type of kid (which I think they tried to do a little but kinda half assed it, IIRC), he may have had a better shot. No, Ted Jr. really needed his own identity and vignettes. "We already established this chapter with his dad 20 years ago" is crap and it had no hope of working, especially with how much of WWE's audience is people who weren't alive during those days. They definitely should have made him a new money kind of kid and go with some more modern rich brat stereotypes, but they still needed establishing.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Feb 23, 2017 12:07:45 GMT -5
Yeah, but it seemed pointless to do that, since we already established that he was rich from being Ted's kid. If he did the same stuff his dad did, people would have shit on it. Hell, they even did the whole gimmick of finding his own Virgil (which carried a whole new set of problems), and crowds just didn't respond. Now, if they had made him out more to be a "New Money" type of kid (which I think they tried to do a little but kinda half assed it, IIRC), he may have had a better shot. No, Ted Jr. really needed his own identity and vignettes. "We already established this chapter with his dad 20 years ago" is crap and it had no hope of working, especially with how much of WWE's audience is people who weren't alive during those days. They definitely should have made him a new money kind of kid and go with some more modern rich brat stereotypes, but they still needed establishing. Yeah, I wasn't say do the same exact stuff as Ted Sr. but do SOMETHING... having Cole point out he's rich and his father is the million dollar man! is not a gimmick and isn't going to get anyone over. again it's the screen writing rule of SHOW don't TELL.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Feb 23, 2017 12:08:37 GMT -5
The biggest obstacle for Ted was that after Legacy, WWE tried to make him his father. That doesn't fit him, he's not the asshole son of Million Dollar Man, he's the polite son of Ted Dibiase the preacher. From all accounts, Dibiase Party Posse Ted was closest to his real self. It didn't help that they never really filmed any vignettes or did anything with the gimmick. His entire gimmick was he had the Million Dollar Title and Michael Cole talked about how rich he was. The original MDM would have failed if they did the same thing... instead of showing him being a rich asshole throwing his cash to get people to demean themselves and buy out a pool... etc. he was one of the biggest examples of the WWE forgetting the SHOW don't Tell rule. In WWE mind I think they thought they was doing a favor for Ted giving him his fathers gimmick. From going him the MD title to Virgil and his switch to Maryse it was supposed to be a push but it really was not. It could of gotten over if they did a lot of vignettes playing him as the fortunate son and just being an ass to everyone with the "do you know who my father is". At the end tho I do not think Ted Jr was comfortable with the gimmick and it showed sometimes.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Feb 23, 2017 12:16:46 GMT -5
No, Ted Jr. really needed his own identity and vignettes. "We already established this chapter with his dad 20 years ago" is crap and it had no hope of working, especially with how much of WWE's audience is people who weren't alive during those days. They definitely should have made him a new money kind of kid and go with some more modern rich brat stereotypes, but they still needed establishing. Yeah, I wasn't say do the same exact stuff as Ted Sr. but do SOMETHING... having Cole point out he's rich and his father is the million dollar man! is not a gimmick and isn't going to get anyone over. again it's the screen writing rule of SHOW don't TELL. What he should have been was the most prep school "I grew up rich and that makes me better than you in every way, here is all the cool things I had that you didn't" brat imaginable. Ted Sr. knew everyone had a price because he used his fortune and business prowess to open doors and got what he wanted, but Ted Jr. should have been someone who learned it because his dad would bail him out of any trouble he was in with a tidy sum. Update the gimmick for modern times, and instead of it being "We're giving him his dad's gimmick", it's "We're giving him the gimmick of the kind of shitty prick a kid raised by the Million Dollar Man" would be. Sure, he'd still have the obstacle of having about as much charisma as soggy french fries, but at least it wouldn't have been rejected offhand for just being "his dad's gimmick but shittier".
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Post by Throwback on Feb 23, 2017 14:04:25 GMT -5
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Feb 23, 2017 15:22:50 GMT -5
What he should have been was the most prep school "I grew up rich and that makes me better than you in every way, here is all the cool things I had that you didn't" brat imaginable. Ted Sr. knew everyone had a price because he used his fortune and business prowess to open doors and got what he wanted, but Ted Jr. should have been someone who learned it because his dad would bail him out of any trouble he was in with a tidy sum. Update the gimmick for modern times, and instead of it being "We're giving him his dad's gimmick", it's "We're giving him the gimmick of the kind of shitty prick a kid raised by the Million Dollar Man" would be. Sure, he'd still have the obstacle of having about as much charisma as soggy french fries, but at least it wouldn't have been rejected offhand for just being "his dad's gimmick but shittier". Even then, the bigger issue was just that...as I think was said, Ted Jr. just was a better face than a heel. It fell apart because he was too likable a person to play the bad guy as his biggest failing. When they turned him face and made the DiBiase Posse, there was potential to at least be where Cody Rhodes eventually became- but he fell off there not because of the gimmick, but because he got injured at the time the brand split ended, literally the worst possible time to get injured because it meant his spot vanished in an instant (and which led to a lost generation of upwardly mobile midcarders who vanished for reasons that they could not be blamed for.)
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