lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,726
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Post by lucas_lee on Jun 1, 2017 8:24:41 GMT -5
There's one Facebook Puro fan club that one of the admins, blames people being conditioned to American styled booking as to why they dislike Okada and you should feel dumb for not liking him Truthfully, I feel it is similar to here when it comes to Okada. I felt Naito vs Tanahashi at this year's WrestleKingdom was the best match on the show. People online raged against those who praised Okada vs Omega but didn't say it was the best match ever. Like saying the match was very good to great wasn't enough. It's the reason why I have problems with puro fans because if I didn't praise Omega vs Okada enough, I'm a WWE Roman Reigns fan Boy. It's the reason I don't take part in online discussions anymore because people cannot form a valid argument without mud slinging or making outrageous statements
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 1, 2017 8:40:18 GMT -5
Don't think we much get that here; if anything, very often during big cards there are posters here hoping the challengers can unseat Okada, be it Shibata last month, Kenny in January, or even Goto last year.
That's the fascinating part to me, how we can have a top guy in a promotion who puts on barnburner after barnburner, and who most of us clearly at least like on some level (again, there's nothing resembling "Cena/Reigns heat" on Okada from the vast majority of NJPW viewers), yet it's interesting to watch how many of us still gravitate more toward his gallery of challengers than to the champ himself, despite admiring his work. That's the fun nit to pick and to analyze (perhaps overthink?) that adds some layers to the viewing experience, at least for me.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jun 1, 2017 8:58:48 GMT -5
Truthfully, I feel it is similar to here when it comes to Okada. I felt Naito vs Tanahashi at this year's WrestleKingdom was the best match on the show. People online raged against those who praised Okada vs Omega but didn't say it was the best match ever. Like saying the match was very good to great wasn't enough. It's the reason why I have problems with puro fans because if I didn't praise Omega vs Okada enough, I'm a WWE Roman Reigns fan Boy. It's the reason I don't take part in online discussions anymore because people cannot form a valid argument without mud slinging or making outrageous statements Nature of the beast. Not being all in on someone or a company automatically make you a WWE fanboy even if you're not. There's a discussion in a New Japan thread about Cody Rhodes possibly not being in the G1 CLIMAX due to not stepping up to the NJPW style. I said for months he wasn't and got called jealous of seeing someone succeed outside of WWE. Now people are finally seeing what I saw mainly because of a report Gedo is having second thoughts about putting him in. I'm not trying to follow the crowd. Just staying true to myself. And that means not being a superfan of the Rainmaker.
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Fundertaker
El Dandy
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
Posts: 8,932
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Post by Fundertaker on Jun 1, 2017 9:15:32 GMT -5
I would say that this is kinda like Saint Seiya or Captain Tsubasa in a way: The main character is really not that interesting but the cast around them has clear and (mostly) interesting abilities and personalities... but the main character is still "the man" and who everyone will buy the issues/watch the anime for.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,726
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Post by lucas_lee on Jun 1, 2017 11:22:47 GMT -5
What I love about NJPW is that they're not afraid to let Okada act heeling. They know in some regions he won't be cheered, I wish WWE would take that hint too
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jun 1, 2017 11:59:32 GMT -5
Imagine if no character progression John Cena had a year long title reign, lost the belt to the guy who just made himself a star over the course of a year CM Punk.... then won it back 6 weeks later and had another year long title reign, flattening a new star at Wrestlemania to boot. That's what I think of Okada right now.
I don't think he should have even been IN the main event of Wrestle Kingdom, let alone winning it this year. Personally I'd have booked it Naito vs Omega's battle for stable supremacy. Beating Suzuki and Shibata who both deserved reigns was also somewhat an insult to injury for me.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2017 12:10:01 GMT -5
Granted part of that might just be the fact I think the Rainmaker is a super underwhelming finisher that's easier to take as a joke than anything with how much a not all that impactful clothesline is sold as a world-beater yeah that's why it was voted "best wrestling maneuver" in 2012 and 2013 in the WON awards Personally one of my favorite finishers, one of the most believable looking, flashiest and most surprising/shocking I've ever seen It's up there with the Stone Cold Stunner for me in the modern age, the kind of move where when you see other wrestlers perform it they end up looking like low-grade pretenders.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 1, 2017 13:50:31 GMT -5
Imagine if no character progression John Cena had a year long title reign, lost the belt to the guy who just made himself a star over the course of a year CM Punk.... then won it back 6 weeks later and had another year long title reign, flattening a new star at Wrestlemania to boot. That's what I think of Okada right now. I don't think he should have even been IN the main event of Wrestle Kingdom, let alone winning it this year. Personally I'd have booked it Naito vs Omega's battle for stable supremacy. Beating Suzuki and Shibata who both deserved reigns was also somewhat an insult to injury for me. Tell us how you really feel
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 1, 2017 18:26:44 GMT -5
Imagine if no character progression John Cena had a year long title reign, lost the belt to the guy who just made himself a star over the course of a year CM Punk.... then won it back 6 weeks later and had another year long title reign, flattening a new star at Wrestlemania to boot. That's what I think of Okada right now. I don't think he should have even been IN the main event of Wrestle Kingdom, let alone winning it this year. Personally I'd have booked it Naito vs Omega's battle for stable supremacy. Beating Suzuki and Shibata who both deserved reigns was also somewhat an insult to injury for me. I can't much see that with regards to Omega; Kenny came off stronger in defeat to most than many WWE challengers come off in victory. Don't forget, Kenny was being built for the Japanese audience, to whom he was still largely a funny junior wrestler; WK and G1 put him solidly on the map, and now NJPW can either use him to put more guys over should he leave, and can also make him champion and do good business if he stays. I was pulling for him at WK, but he emerged a made man. Not much different with Naito, either; they didn't know how hot he'd get so he got a win, but even in defeat he got to be the first person in forever to kick out of the Rainmaker, and it took more of them to keep him down. I think there's an excellent chance he and Okada are going to main event next January. I just don't totally see the parallels because WWE's numbers have been going down for awhile under Cena and others, while New Japan is trending upward under Okada. Don't mistake me: I'd kill for a Goto title run, a Suzuki run, and for Naito to get his shot for longer, but it's hard to ignore that Okada is proving himself a draw.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,121
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 1, 2017 18:45:56 GMT -5
Does it hurt Okada that CHAOS as a stable kinda barely seems to even be together?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 1, 2017 18:51:25 GMT -5
Imagine if no character progression John Cena had a year long title reign, lost the belt to the guy who just made himself a star over the course of a year CM Punk.... then won it back 6 weeks later and had another year long title reign, flattening a new star at Wrestlemania to boot. That's what I think of Okada right now. I don't think he should have even been IN the main event of Wrestle Kingdom, let alone winning it this year. Personally I'd have booked it Naito vs Omega's battle for stable supremacy. Beating Suzuki and Shibata who both deserved reigns was also somewhat an insult to injury for me. I can't much see that with regards to Omega; Kenny came off stronger in defeat to most than many WWE challengers come off in victory. Don't forget, Kenny was being built for the Japanese audience, to whom he was still largely a funny junior wrestler; WK and G1 put him solidly on the map, and now NJPW can either use him to put more guys over should he leave, and can also make him champion and do good business if he stays. I was pulling for him at WK, but he emerged a made man. Not much different with Naito, either; they didn't know how hot he'd get so he got a win, but even in defeat he got to be the first person in forever to kick out of the Rainmaker, and it took more of them to keep him down. I think there's an excellent chance he and Okada are going to main event next January. I just don't totally see the parallels because WWE's numbers have been going down for awhile under Cena and others, while New Japan is trending upward under Okada. Don't mistake me: I'd kill for a Goto title run, a Suzuki run, and for Naito to get his shot for longer, but it's hard to ignore that Okada is proving himself a draw. Exactly on this. As I said before I feel like the only person Okada is truly holding up is Naito but even then they have rewarded Naito by putting him in the "Nakamura spot" and he's continued to kill it. This wrestle WK was made to make Kenny a made man and they did just that. Hell, the praise they gave Omega means a whole damn lot imo. All the names you mentioned above have had good to great years but it's hard to deny Okada and the year he has had. Okada ability to match with anyone and adapt is not an easy task. His matches with anyone is must see and that's not a label you can put on everyone.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 84,889
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Post by chrom on Jun 1, 2017 18:52:13 GMT -5
Does it hurt Okada that CHAOS as a stable kinda barely seems to even be together? When the group first formed, the gimmick of them under Nakamura was to bring back Strong Style to the promotion. Now, only Ishii is still like that. They're just guys who hang out anymore. They're not the cool heels like BC or outcasts like LIJ, they're just there.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jun 1, 2017 21:38:33 GMT -5
Does it hurt Okada that CHAOS as a stable kinda barely seems to even be together? When the group first formed, the gimmick of them under Nakamura was to bring back Strong Style to the promotion. Now, only Ishii is still like that. They're just guys who hang out anymore. They're not the cool heels like BC or outcasts like LIJ, they're just there. Yeah, CHAOS kind of lost its direction after awhile, since turning babyface kind of necessitated them losing some of the killer edge they had during Shinsuke's heel run. Ishii and Goto are still bruisers, but I think they're more like a MMA stable is in real life, guys who associate with one another but aren't exactly always watching each other's backs or wearing matching gear or what have you - the running gag with many New Japan fans is "where is CHAOS?" any time one of its stable members is getting beaten down and nobody comes out to help them. They do serve one main purpose, I think, which is having a stable that mostly plays face but can also go tweener when the booking calls for it. Still, I wouldn't mind some kind of breakup angle for the group at some point, though it'd be a shame for Toru Yano to lose his main source of golden DVD material.
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StuntGranny®
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Not Actually a Granny
Posts: 16,099
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Post by StuntGranny® on Jun 1, 2017 23:01:22 GMT -5
I just can't wrap my head around the Okada hate/backlash I've seen strewn around the Internet. The guy is 29-years-old and every singles match he's in is a must-see match. He's very likely going to get better. I can understand being sick of him being the champion, but there's a lot of insane hyperbole out there from people who just don't like him and want to make up a bullshit narrative.
I DO agree that Naito should've had a longer reign. I also think that Shibata should've absolutely beaten Okada for the title (And it sucks even more now due to the huge question mark on Shibata's future). But none of that changes the fact that he's one of the best wrestlers on the planet right now. Just because you don't like the way he's booked doesn't change that fact.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 4, 2017 9:32:55 GMT -5
I don't see Okada as a chosen champion by the office. I'm just a casual fan of njpw, but I feel like the guy came out of nowhere.
Please correct me if I'm wrong but the guy wasn't even scouted by njpw, it took him a couple of years to get there. They also loaned him around even to tna and that almost killed him.
I also think that he's not the typical njpw product, in that he could become mainstream worldwide, the f***er not only is featured in anime but he's pretty much a playable character in tekken 7.
I didn't know he was divisive in Japan, could it be because he's too famous now? Like rock in early 2003?
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Jun 4, 2017 9:52:06 GMT -5
I can't really add any more to this thread than what has already been said. I'm an avid Okada supporter, I think he is the very best in the world right now. From his look, to his youth, to his charisma, to his in ring work, to his drawing ability, Okada is ticking every single box for what you want in a main event superstar. The man has been on fire in 2017- this run of title matches, and the ongoing storyline of how long he can hold on to the title, will be looked upon as the stuff of legend in the years to come, and it is a pleasure to be currently in the middle of it. In an time where we have an absentee champion and a champion who is seen by many as an absolute joke in WWE, Okada's current run has, in my opinion, made the IWGP Heavyweight Championship the most prestigious title in wrestling. For those who continue to find reasons to not enjoy Kazuchika Okada- well, I'll never be one to tell anybody who or what they should or shouldn't like. It's all cool. I'll just be over here, continuing to enjoy watching one of the all time greats climb towards his peak. This post puts a lot of things in perspective. I think that the iwgp belt is the only remaining link to the fighting champion nowadays. Unfortunately the universal belt is a novelty act that were in the hands of part timers so it doesn't have an identity. The wwe belt became a publicity stunt with Jinder and is not taken seriously, also the Bray Wyatt cheap special efects disgraced it in wm it was one of the worst matches. The roh belt is like a secondary title to New Japan now. What I'm saying is that the iwgp belt is now the only option if you want to see a fight for the most prestigious prize in wrestling.
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Post by Super Nintenjoe KBD on Jun 4, 2017 11:08:34 GMT -5
I remember watching an Okada match where he was blatantly and openly cheating and the ref tried to stop it and he casually just kind of walked away with the damage done like "yep, whatever you say chief", was just so well done and subtle I think that's when I became a fan, was clear he had something! Great heeling, he oozed zero f***s.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jun 4, 2017 11:25:18 GMT -5
Honestly, I wouldn't go back in time and change much about either Okada's or Cena's booking on top. I think that if you really want to establish a top guy as a draw, you have to push them incredibly hard, and they have to clearly be established as the best. And unfortunately, that means some fans' favorites are just going to have to job to them at some point. You need to break some eggs to cook the omelette. That's why Okada, Cena and Lesnar are draws, they've been protected heavily.
A smart booker shouldn't worry about their top face looking too powerful until they're an established money-maker. Then, maybe they can take some risks, and have them lose a little to some up-and-comers so it doesn't get too tedious. But after that? Back to winning. Naito's got a huge following, and maybe his one IWGP Heavyweight reign was too brief, but I liked how it was booked as such an interference-heavy deviation from the norm- him and L.I.J were shaking up the system, DX/CM Punk-style. And Okada's prior dominance made that Invasion Attack show feel more meaningful.
It's like when WCW ended Goldberg's streak, that was way too early. He lost a lot of his mystique after Starrcade 98, and he wasn't made to look as special as he was before.
I always laugh when people talk about "oh, so-and-so is such a Mary Sue". And I think to myself, good. A lot of the biggest draws were pretty damn Sue-ish. The first thing a superstar wrestler should be is canonically awesome, first and foremost. If you want an ace, then you have to keep your foot on the pedal in terms of making them look strong.
If Reigns had won the title at Mania 31 and gone on a beastly tear, retaining it for nearly a year, I truly believe his reactions today wouldn't be anywhere as bad. I doubt he'd be universally cheered, but I think WWE putting off his eventual dominance has hurt him badly. Them not allowing him to be the true Big Dog for a meaningful period has given fans a sense of both impatience and frustration. Booking him as a scrappy underdog against HHH felt very contrived, and the fakeness of it stood out- whereas Cena's reactions began to rebound once the company dropped the "can Cena overcome the odds?" stuff and put him over as a living legend.
The sentiment around Roman seems to be "just coronate him and get it over with", when it could really be "damn, Reigns is beating everyone's ass, who can stop him?" The key difference between him and Okada for me isn't just Okada's ability. Mostly, I feel it's that NJPW's been less gunshy about establishing Okada as The Top Dude.
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Gus Richlen Was Wrong
Patti Mayonnaise
Metal Maestro: Co-winner of the FAN Idol Throwdown!
Fun while it lasted
Posts: 38,509
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Post by Gus Richlen Was Wrong on Jun 5, 2017 22:27:13 GMT -5
Honestly, I wouldn't go back in time and change much about either Okada's or Cena's booking on top. I think that if you really want to establish a top guy as a draw, you have to push them incredibly hard, and they have to clearly be established as the best. And unfortunately, that means some fans' favorites are just going to have to job to them at some point. You need to break some eggs to cook the omelette. That's why Okada, Cena and Lesnar are draws, they've been protected heavily. A smart booker shouldn't worry about their top face looking too powerful until they're an established money-maker. Then, maybe they can take some risks, and have them lose a little to some up-and-comers so it doesn't get too tedious. But after that? Back to winning. Naito's got a huge following, and maybe his one IWGP Heavyweight reign was too brief, but I liked how it was booked as such an interference-heavy deviation from the norm- him and L.I.J were shaking up the system, DX/CM Punk-style. And Okada's prior dominance made that Invasion Attack show feel more meaningful. It's like when WCW ended Goldberg's streak, that was way too early. He lost a lot of his mystique after Starrcade 98, and he wasn't made to look as special as he was before. I always laugh when people talk about "oh, so-and-so is such a Mary Sue". And I think to myself, good. A lot of the biggest draws were pretty damn Sue-ish. The first thing a superstar wrestler should be is canonically awesome, first and foremost. If you want an ace, then you have to keep your foot on the pedal in terms of making them look strong. If Reigns had won the title at Mania 31 and gone on a beastly tear, retaining it for nearly a year, I truly believe his reactions today wouldn't be anywhere as bad. I doubt he'd be universally cheered, but I think WWE putting off his eventual dominance has hurt him badly. Them not allowing him to be the true Big Dog for a meaningful period has given fans a sense of both impatience and frustration. Booking him as a scrappy underdog against HHH felt very contrived, and the fakeness of it stood out- whereas Cena's reactions began to rebound once the company dropped the "can Cena overcome the odds?" stuff and put him over as a living legend. The sentiment around Roman seems to be "just coronate him and get it over with", when it could really be "damn, Reigns is beating everyone's ass, who can stop him?" The key difference between him and Okada for me isn't just Okada's ability. Mostly, I feel it's that NJPW's been less gunshy about establishing Okada as The Top Dude. The problem is WWE heard the reaction prior to 31 and panicked. And now they're too scared to actually commit to Roman as a top guy (can't really be THE Guy when the brands are split) because they think that the backlash will be bad or worse. And at this point they'd be right judging from a lot of the reactions here.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jun 5, 2017 23:46:12 GMT -5
I think Okada judt got unlucky with Naito and LIJ catching the steam they did... And personally I was lioking forward to Chaos vs.LIJ but I think Gedo went away from that to protrct both parties.
Then Suzikigun returned which also kind of lost Okada steam IMO. But hes gotten it back
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