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Post by joeiscool on Sept 21, 2017 11:02:17 GMT -5
I thought it was interesting. He's obviously projecting that other people have racist stereo types, while taking part in them himself. He's obviously is being a hypocrite, it's an interesting concept, and Jinder is really trying his best, but the material is so flat. Like why spend 1/2 the promo showing that Shinsuke has the same facial expression, and totally miss the one stereotype everyone hears about asians which is they all look alike?Ok, that line? I can guarantee you that would have gone over like a lead balloon. The fans were already being turned off big time, but if Jinder went there I can see people getting up and leaving. And I wouldn't blame them. There are more people who are bothered by this sort of heel heat then there are those who aren't, and it's not out of "virtue signalling". I can't see any way to fix the promo without just thinking "don't book it at all". I mean, dude is talking "Egrish" I don't think that is all that much worse. What we have right now is a boring fictional racist. I think it would go over if they had a clever/funny way of making the point. I don't think the backlash is as much the "racism" as much as it's just not entertaining and racist. We are talking a crowd that would pop if Crime time or the godfather showed up today.
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Fauxnaki
Unicron
0 Followers Club
Posts: 2,861
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Post by Fauxnaki on Sept 21, 2017 11:28:13 GMT -5
This is My favourite fued of jinders so far. For a Heel to complain about people. being racist to Him then being racist Himself just makes sense.
We could argue about what the writers intentions behind this angle is till the cows come home. By the truth is none of us really know and both performers don't seem to have a problem with it.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Sept 21, 2017 12:14:57 GMT -5
Punjab population is a very small part of India. So using Punjabi to talk to the 1.3 billion Indian people is another "ignorant mistake" The Indian fanbase, from what I can tell, loves dominant babyfaces like Roman and Cena, and are really big on kayfabe. A cheating heel who can't even use the bathroom without the help of the Bollywood Boys is not going to strike a chord with this fanbase. I watched TNAGFW's Global Impact, and I was kind of shocked how markish Indian fans are.
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Post by SCCB Was Told To Do Steroids on Sept 21, 2017 12:17:26 GMT -5
Oriental is Eurocentric that's generally why it's frowned upon. Japs is also frowned upon, but nobody apparently told my Grandmother that, god rest her casually racist soul. Are you Randall from "Clerks II"?
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Sept 21, 2017 12:24:01 GMT -5
Japs is also frowned upon, but nobody apparently told my Grandmother that, god rest her casually racist soul. Are you Randall from "Clerks II"? No joke, my friends and I used to refer to us hanging around on our front porches as being "porch monkeys" without any knowledge whatsoever that it was a racist thing. That scene just killed me.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Sept 21, 2017 12:40:41 GMT -5
Cheapest type of heat ever. Jinder became a parody of himself. Saddest part of all? I think Vince is the one who write Jinder's promos. McMahon thought it was ok to say that line, just as Vince thought it would be cool for New Day to be dropping dices during their entrance, or think that it would be ok for himself to say the n word in a segment. Brit here, is...is that dice thing a stereotype of some sort? I asssumed it was a reference to Woods liking D&D. Also this "Vince said the n word" thing is becoming a bad meme. The segment was, in context, clearly meant to illustrate that Vince SHOULDN'T be saying it and is seriously inappropriate (and from memory, was during the whole 'Vince wrestles God, becomes ECW champion and basically loses his mind" phase, so yknow, fit his character at the time). In context, Vince saying it has the reaction you'd expect- everyone is like "dude no". He's not throwing n bombs left right and centre with everyone merrily clapping along, he's an old white billionaire who has no idea how insensitive he is. But I mean when has context ever mattered? Also, sort of off topic, but sometimes I really feel like there is a major cultural divide with WWE between American and non-American viewers in terms of what people pick up on or object to or find acceptable. I'm not just talking this Jinder stuff, but I mean things like violence or sexuality levels in general, WWE's product is guaranteed to offend people somewhere for as long as they are a global company. I get that it makes the most sense to listen to American sensibilities but even then there's so much variation, that I don't think it's possible. I think if you're willing to censor or even self-censor art (which, lowbrow as it may be, WWE is) on the basis of offence, you're immediately halfway down the rabbit hole because every objection in the future will come with expectations of change, but moreover I have general issues with art censorship (including self-censored, because the reality is it nearly always isn't self-censored so much as responding to outside pressure out of fear for what will happen if you don't). But that's a whole other debate. Basically WWE probably could & should do it better, but I won't criticise them for simply going there or trying.
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the2ndevil
Grimlock
Super Seducer Survivor
Where Is Your Santa, Now?
Posts: 13,632
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Post by the2ndevil on Sept 21, 2017 12:42:25 GMT -5
Are you Randall from "Clerks II"? No joke, my friends and I used to refer to us hanging around on our front porches as being "porch monkeys" without any knowledge whatsoever that it was a racist thing. That scene just killed me. I never even knew that was an expression, let alone a racial slur until that scene.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Sept 21, 2017 13:10:57 GMT -5
In scripted television programming I have no problem with bad guys being racist. They're bad guys, being racist is bad.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 21, 2017 13:25:50 GMT -5
Cheapest type of heat ever. Jinder became a parody of himself. Saddest part of all? I think Vince is the one who write Jinder's promos. McMahon thought it was ok to say that line, just as Vince thought it would be cool for New Day to be dropping dices during their entrance, or think that it would be ok for himself to say the n word in a segment. Brit here, is...is that dice thing a stereotype of some sort? I asssumed it was a reference to Woods liking D&D. Rolling dice is like ghetto craps. It can be stereotypical, but I'm not sure if it was meant to be with New Day because they've never tried to be ghetto during their entire run. If you want a humorous look at what "rolling dice" is like, check out Chappelle's Show's World Series of Dice skit.
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
Posts: 10,993
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Post by Sparkybob on Sept 21, 2017 13:27:46 GMT -5
As a minority I think it's great to see a racist guy get beaten up in the ring. That is why I personally don't mind heels using racist comments on air because to me it's a fictional TV show where people can live vicariously through the faces.
As long as the announcers WWE frame the comments as being in the wrong and he gets his comeuppance I don't mind. JBL vs Eddie was one of my favorites programs and it was ripe with racism.
Now if Curt Hawkins just went up to Titus O'Neil and told him you can't swim and then walked away I will raise an eyebrow for that.
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Post by Surfer Sandman on Sept 21, 2017 13:28:22 GMT -5
I skipped SDL (like I skipped Raw) so I missed what happened. What did he do? "Behind your back, they'll say your hair was done by a dog groomer. Behind your back, they'll call you Mr. Miyagi." He also straight up yelled "GOZIRRA" on the mic last week and told him he looked like Pikachu having a seizure. Sounds exactly what I feared would happen to Nakamura. They just can't have Asian characters without spewing racism. How do they expect to grow in India and China if their stars are cutting (scripted) racist promos? Get Vince/Dunn out of there!
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Post by Cyno on Sept 21, 2017 13:30:03 GMT -5
I will forgive a lot with this angle if Nakamura beats the holy hell out of Jinder and wins the championship. But I'm guessing, like every single one of his matches, that the Singh Bros. will distract or interfere somehow and Jinder will retain and avoid comeuppance.
Heels avoid comeuppance way too much or they get their comeuppance and win the next night anyway (hi Alexa Bliss!).
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saintpat
El Dandy
Release the hounds!!!
Posts: 7,664
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Post by saintpat on Sept 21, 2017 13:38:27 GMT -5
The heel's job is to wrestle a style during the heat segment and the hopespot/cutoff segment that makes the face look good when the face gets to his shine segment. If a heel is doing cool, fast, flippy stuff that pops the crowd, he will make the face look less good. Hi, actual former heel wrestler here. The job of a heel in ring isn't to be boring, it's to set the pace of the match. If someone tells you to go out and work 15 minutes, then you go out there and lead the match for about 12 of those minutes, plus false comebacks and the finish. Work a leg, be a tall person, flip off the crowd, pull sneaky shit or whatever, but Don't be boring. ECW Cactus Jack disagrees.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Sept 21, 2017 13:39:08 GMT -5
For real, this racism shit is hella corny and wack. I'm not even bothered by it because it's so absurdly childish and transparent (and keep in mind, I do social justice/race-related work for my job) but wow, this is weak for a world title program that has almost no juice to it. Enough of these "shock" promos. Enough of the meta "shoots" that aren't really shoots. Can I just get a wrestler to walk up to somebody else, be like, "I f***ed your bitch in my light up shoes and your hairline messed up, fight me" and leave it that? Keep my pro rasslin' simple. Don't try to get all philosophical with it.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Sept 21, 2017 13:58:07 GMT -5
Brit here, is...is that dice thing a stereotype of some sort? I asssumed it was a reference to Woods liking D&D. Rolling dice is like ghetto craps. It can be stereotypical, but I'm not sure if it was meant to be with New Day because they've never tried to be ghetto during their entire run. If you want a humorous look at what "rolling dice" is like, check out Chappelle's Show's World Series of Dice skit. Huh. Well, I learned something today.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,141
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 21, 2017 13:59:42 GMT -5
Hi, actual former heel wrestler here. The job of a heel in ring isn't to be boring, it's to set the pace of the match. If someone tells you to go out and work 15 minutes, then you go out there and lead the match for about 12 of those minutes, plus false comebacks and the finish. Work a leg, be a tall person, flip off the crowd, pull sneaky shit or whatever, but Don't be boring. ECW Cactus Jack disagrees. Yet Randy Savage, HBK and Ric Flair agree. Can't remember them suddenly flicking a "be boring" switch as heels. If anything Savage was more fiery and intense as a heel.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Sept 21, 2017 14:10:34 GMT -5
Hi, actual former heel wrestler here. The job of a heel in ring isn't to be boring, it's to set the pace of the match. If someone tells you to go out and work 15 minutes, then you go out there and lead the match for about 12 of those minutes, plus false comebacks and the finish. Work a leg, be a tall person, flip off the crowd, pull sneaky shit or whatever, but Don't be boring. ECW Cactus Jack disagrees. As does Randy Orton
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2017 14:11:43 GMT -5
For real, this racism shit is hella corny and wack. I'm not even bothered by it because it's so absurdly childish and transparent (and keep in mind, I do social justice/race-related work for my job) but wow, this is weak for a world title program that has almost no juice to it. Enough of these "shock" promos. Enough of the meta "shoots" that aren't really shoots. Can I just get a wrestler to walk up to somebody else, be like, "I f***ed your bitch in my light up shoes and your hairline messed up, fight me" and leave it that? Keep my pro rasslin' simple. Don't try to get all philosophical with it. That storyline HAS to happen! You just know it would be the babyface f***in' the heels girlfriend though.
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Post by Cyno on Sept 21, 2017 14:14:39 GMT -5
Being a good heel means being entertaining. If you're not entertaining, you're not a good heel. Or a good wrestler, period. One of the biggest complaints about Randy Orton was his over-reliance on restholds that drag the match down. It's also why, as both a face and a heel, the commentary team and company in general sell him on the RKO and its devastating nature, not the restholds.
If you don't get that a good heel makes you love to hate them instead of wanting to change the channel out of boredom, I think the concept of what makes a good heel eludes you. A good heel also doesn't take you out of kayfabe and break the willing suspension of disbelief. Jinder's wack-ass promos do just that.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Sept 21, 2017 14:38:45 GMT -5
Cheapest type of heat ever. Jinder became a parody of himself. Saddest part of all? I think Vince is the one who write Jinder's promos. McMahon thought it was ok to say that line, just as Vince thought it would be cool for New Day to be dropping dices during their entrance, or think that it would be ok for himself to say the n word in a segment. Brit here, is...is that dice thing a stereotype of some sort? I asssumed it was a reference to Woods liking D&D. Also this "Vince said the n word" thing is becoming a bad meme. The segment was, in context, clearly meant to illustrate that Vince SHOULDN'T be saying it and is seriously inappropriate (and from memory, was during the whole 'Vince wrestles God, becomes ECW champion and basically loses his mind" phase, so yknow, fit his character at the time). In context, Vince saying it has the reaction you'd expect- everyone is like "dude no". He's not throwing n bombs left right and centre with everyone merrily clapping along, he's an old white billionaire who has no idea how insensitive he is. But I mean when has context ever mattered? Also, sort of off topic, but sometimes I really feel like there is a major cultural divide with WWE between American and non-American viewers in terms of what people pick up on or object to or find acceptable. I'm not just talking this Jinder stuff, but I mean things like violence or sexuality levels in general, WWE's product is guaranteed to offend people somewhere for as long as they are a global company. I get that it makes the most sense to listen to American sensibilities but even then there's so much variation, that I don't think it's possible. I think if you're willing to censor or even self-censor art (which, lowbrow as it may be, WWE is) on the basis of offence, you're immediately halfway down the rabbit hole because every objection in the future will come with expectations of change, but moreover I have general issues with art censorship (including self-censored, because the reality is it nearly always isn't self-censored so much as responding to outside pressure out of fear for what will happen if you don't). But that's a whole other debate. Basically WWE probably could & should do it better, but I won't criticise them for simply going there or trying. There's no excuse for ever using the n word ever. It doesn't matter if he was ecw champion or feuding with god or any other failed rassling storyline, he just threw that epithet because he could. Being an old rich guy is no excuse for saying and writing racist shit. If that shit was ok then his own f***ing company wouldn't be releasing statements apologizing for this bullshit and not uploading the Jinder promo on YouTube.
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