Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,177
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 2, 2017 13:01:51 GMT -5
If it does change? Good, but it's not 100 year from now. I'd also say that's not really what this conversation is about, that's like n-word privilages, a staff member using it proudly is reclaiming it. Someone using it in daily life as an insult is quite another. I wasn't disagreeing with that point. I totally get that. Ok cool, this is the kind of thread where it gets a bit heated, my apologies if I seemed a bit annoyed lol
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Post by Larryhausen on Dec 2, 2017 13:06:17 GMT -5
I wasn't disagreeing with that point. I totally get that. Ok cool, this is the kind of thread where it gets a bit heated, my apologies if I seemed a bit annoyed lol All good. Sorry if my post was confusing.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Dec 2, 2017 14:17:43 GMT -5
No, I mean who said that using the f-word for gay people is suddenly not as big of a deal, especially if you're a straight person using it? Obviously there's no way to determine exactly how everyone in society feels about a certain word. But I would consider that "F**" in the 70-80s was predominately used as a slur towards gay people. Currently like the South Park episode implied, it's used more as a generic, nonsense word. There's probably younger kids who don't even know the origin of the word. Does that mean we should all start using it and everything is awesome for gay people? No, but there definitely is a different context to how the word is used. That is not what my experience in highschool less than 10 years ago taught me.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 2, 2017 14:24:53 GMT -5
That's the main point we need to focus on- people who aren't part of a specific marginalized group don't get to decide what should or shouldn't be considered offensive. If Jerry feels he needs to walk on eggshells with his work today, then that's a personal problem all his own, not a problem with society at large. Goldust today is a perfectly fine character as an eccentric movie buff. But early on, they were definitely trying to stoke crowds' homophobia in how he was portrayed. The angle was gross then, and it comes off even worse today. I agree so much with your first point. It is still mind-boggling that so many white people in the United States feel they should have final say on what people of color in the United States should find offensive regarding race. On the other hand, I hate the idea of "walking on egg shells," when it comes to art for fear of offending someone. If you're telling a story that involves conflict and dastardly actions you will always run the risk of hitting too close to someone's home. I don't think anybody would argue that a fictional show shouldn't be allowed to use some uncomfortable material to make a point here or there; if a character using slurs or whatever makes sense in the context of a story, not many people are going to object. Context still matters, of course; characters just tossing the phrases around might get some pushback, or characters doing something vile just for the sake of shock value (e.g. how some people felt about how far Game of Thrones went to depict Ramsey Bolton's villainy), but if the story is logical and the use of uncomfortable material makes sense, you're not likely to get a lot of people saying it shouldn't happen, least of all people who profess to be open-minded. That said, I totally get anybody having no use for the way Jerry Lawler used it 20 years ago, given how the Goldust character was pretty much created to prey on the audience's homophobia and justify those prejudices. As said earlier in the thread, trusting a company like WWF/E to tell stories sound enough that the use of slurs and stuff like that feels logical and necessary for the narrative isn't usually a winning proposition. Really, with the "eggshells" comment I don't really know many people who feel that it's that big of a problem. When I hang out with my friends we sometimes say vile things, but we're all aware that none of us actually believe some of the terrible stuff we're saying. When we go out to a bar or restaurant or something, though? Different story, now we're in public around people who won't instantly think "Oh, I know that guy, he's making fun of people who think that way, he doesn't actually believe that." I don't see that as walking on eggshells as much as it's just having some social awareness and consideration for others outside your own circle. There are plenty of ways to make a point or a joke while still being mindful.
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Post by Jokaine on Dec 2, 2017 15:12:52 GMT -5
I agree so much with your first point. It is still mind-boggling that so many white people in the United States feel they should have final say on what people of color in the United States should find offensive regarding race. On the other hand, I hate the idea of "walking on egg shells," when it comes to art for fear of offending someone. If you're telling a story that involves conflict and dastardly actions you will always run the risk of hitting too close to someone's home. Really, with the "eggshells" comment I don't really know many people who feel that it's that big of a problem. When I hang out with my friends we sometimes say vile things, but we're all aware that none of us actually believe some of the terrible stuff we're saying. When we go out to a bar or restaurant or something, though? Different story, now we're in public around people who won't instantly think "Oh, I know that guy, he's making fun of people who think that way, he doesn't actually believe that." I don't see that as walking on eggshells as much as it's just having some social awareness and consideration for others outside your own circle. There are plenty of ways to make a point or a joke while still being mindful. I agree with your sentiment about being mindful of others' feelings in public, which is why I specifically referenced art. I feel there is a tendency right now to be hypersensitive and to place too many things under an -ism umbrella. That said, and I have pointed this out at least once on thia board, I would far prefer a world full of people who are overly mindful of others' feelings and emotions than one made up of a bunch of angry dudes carrying on about "cucks" who are "triggered" and clamoring for a return to the good old days when the Black guy had to stand aside so they could pass them on the street.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Dec 2, 2017 20:13:23 GMT -5
Well, there might be a way. Would you go to a gay bar and use that word? That'd be a good indication of how the people who the word "used" to be about might feel about it. I work at a dive bar in downtown Philly called McGlinchey's. One of my best regulars works at a dive bar down the street, in Philly's "Gayborhood." I went to see him at work one time and he loudly proclaimed "WELCOME TO F- MCGLINCHEY'S!!!!" The only thing I can offer to this conversation is that, based on my encounters, the word is starting to lose it's sting in some communities, and in 100 years or so might lose all weight. So yes, I would say the language is evolving. Or starting to, at least. For that one guy maybe. If it was me I'd feel immediately alienated there and be struggling with my anxiety to find a safe place to escape to.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 2, 2017 21:22:42 GMT -5
I agree so much with your first point. It is still mind-boggling that so many white people in the United States feel they should have final say on what people of color in the United States should find offensive regarding race. On the other hand, I hate the idea of "walking on egg shells," when it comes to art for fear of offending someone. If you're telling a story that involves conflict and dastardly actions you will always run the risk of hitting too close to someone's home. I don't think anybody would argue that a fictional show shouldn't be allowed to use some uncomfortable material to make a point here or there; if a character using slurs or whatever makes sense in the context of a story, not many people are going to object. Context still matters, of course; characters just tossing the phrases around might get some pushback, or characters doing something vile just for the sake of shock value (e.g. how some people felt about how far Game of Thrones went to depict Ramsey Bolton's villainy), but if the story is logical and the use of uncomfortable material makes sense, you're not likely to get a lot of people saying it shouldn't happen, least of all people who profess to be open-minded. That said, I totally get anybody having no use for the way Jerry Lawler used it 20 years ago, given how the Goldust character was pretty much created to prey on the audience's homophobia and justify those prejudices. As said earlier in the thread, trusting a company like WWF/E to tell stories sound enough that the use of slurs and stuff like that feels logical and necessary for the narrative isn't usually a winning proposition. Really, with the "eggshells" comment I don't really know many people who feel that it's that big of a problem. When I hang out with my friends we sometimes say vile things, but we're all aware that none of us actually believe some of the terrible stuff we're saying. When we go out to a bar or restaurant or something, though? Different story, now we're in public around people who won't instantly think "Oh, I know that guy, he's making fun of people who think that way, he doesn't actually believe that." I don't see that as walking on eggshells as much as it's just having some social awareness and consideration for others outside your own circle. There are plenty of ways to make a point or a joke while still being mindful. Bingo. Lawler's whole defense seems to be, in a nutshell, "Well, yes, it was a slur then sure, and now people who have had that slur aimed at them, they speak up more loudly, so we couldn't say it now". It's an attempt at a "times have changed, sensitive people" bit, but, as you said, all of us have said things in private we wouldn't say in public. Actors, sure, they might use a slur in a movie because it's their line, bu t if they get called on it, they're not going to cut the "damn sensitive punks, just cause I did a speech where I used slurs they might be bothered by, how dare they be bothered by it? GO somewhere else, but also buy a ticket to the movie first so we get the money". That's Lawler's bit here. So I'm just going to leave it this way. If it's just a word that jsut can't be used now, but he could do it back then, can we wait til he's doign a guest spot on RAW and and cue up the Doug Gilbert promo. I mean, it's topical, it's current, it's edgy and hey, if Lawler is worried about the implication that Gilbert dropped, well, maybe he's jsut being overly sensitive. Same logic as his defense.
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Catalanotto
Tommy Wiseau
Sarcasm at it's best.
Posts: 69
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Post by Catalanotto on Dec 2, 2017 22:52:50 GMT -5
LOL We were born the same year, though I imagine you are a bit older as my birthday is December 31st. This generation is all about everyone getting stars for participation and watching what you say because someone might get offended. I guess it's because my general attitude is to shrug at little things I don't agree with and simply move on with life, but, wow, the amount of butthurt in the world right now is ridiculous. You're not allowed to express your opinion if it isn't politically correct. People also need to learn to differentiate between a character and an individual. Whether his opinions at the time had been his real thoughts or not, I don't really care personally, but, he was a heel, and they are meant to make people hate them, what better way than to be offensive? I get it, a heel can find other ways, but, really, getting a bit more personal ruffles more feathers. He would probably be fired immediately had he made those comments today because we now have to take in consideration the feelings of the masses. I'm the same age as you. And I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. There comes a point when characters that are meant to entertain people shouldn't go into a realm where people are legitimately bothered or offended. It's supposed to be a simulated sports show, not a reflection of some of the nastier real world elements that many people in the audience probably went to the show to take their mind off of. Racist, sexist and homophobic heels need to be left in the past. I don't care if they get their comeuppance or not, I don't want to watch them anymore and I'm sure many others don't either. Wrestling angles should be about wrestling, championships and trying to prove they're the strongest, not things that are actually pretty inconsequential if you look at them. As for the amount of "butt hurt" in the world, that looks more to me like marginalized voices- namely women, people of color, LGBTQ, people, the physically or mentally challenged, etc- are making their voices heard, and are more open about these sort of things that make them uncomfortable. And I feel it's high time wrestling fans as a whole start showing more sympathy for others when they say they're offended. I'm not saying white, straight men are making wrestling inherently bad or anything, but we need to start taking into consideration other kinds of people's perspectives if we're going to move wrestling forward. I was never talking about them getting personal like that now, I was talking about it happening then because times were different. None of that would obviously fly now and I am not in disagreement with that.....at all. Attitudes were way different then. People cared less. People care too much now. Things that don't matter that much matter overboard for many. Wrestling had been pushing buttons on large scales for a while before that. As for the butthurt comment, I am referring to every little thing, and I mean EVERY little thing, that offends people these days. Garbage like people whining about Halloween decorations. Someone having too many Christmas lights on their house. Those kinds of ridiculous things, not important things, like acceptance. Everyone wants a pat on the back, everyone needs to be coddled..... I certainly didn't mean to imply I was referring to personal attacks like that in this day and age, I was just responding in regards to the situation at that time. I wouldn't get upset by it now, either, because it's just part of a show, but, obviously an entire community would be heavily offended, and that's fine, they have every right to be, and it just wouldn't fit how far we have come in life with accepting people of different color, gender and sexual orientation (though obviously some of these things still need work). I hope that clears up what I was saying
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 2, 2017 23:18:29 GMT -5
As for the butthurt comment, I am referring to every little thing, and I mean EVERY little thing, that offends people these days. Garbage like people whining about Halloween decorations. Someone having too many Christmas lights on their house. Those kinds of ridiculous things, not important things, like acceptance. Everyone wants a pat on the back, everyone needs to be coddled..... Those types of people have always existed. The only thing that's changed is the internet has given them a platform to voice their objections, so now you engage those people personally on a regular basis, as opposed to encountering them a handful of times in your life.
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Post by benstudd on Dec 3, 2017 3:46:44 GMT -5
Wrestling is a completely different beast than pretty much every other form of entertainment. Where as a character on a show being a clansman is expected... most people don't equate TV Actors and their roles, the same way that Wrestlers are. Secondly, alignment changes happen pretty often and it's not the territorial days where if a guy is playing a despicable heel in say Oregon then drives to New York and now can be a beloved babyface friend to everyone... everything you do in wrestling is pretty much visible to an international audience, especially if you are in the WWE. that's not even mentioning WWE's pretty shitty record of dealing with stuff like that. --- as for the "everyone so sensitive these days" tone a lot of posters are talking about. It's not like everyone woke up an realized that slurs were bad. It's that people that were the targets of them started being treated like people. or written far better than I could I disagree so much with that line of thought. You have to respect people but you can't bash people over the head to respect people. Also I'm looking at my Prime Minister and it's like he is doing daily trips everywhere to apologizes for past mistakes. That's another element I cannot stand, this whole whiney oh my grand-parents were Evil, sorry for their actions. Nevermind that we were not in their skins. And I actually like flaws. For some reason, I respected more his father that I thought was a jerk than all this whiney stuff. Take the Washington Red Skins name stuff. I bet that it's the white people that make more of an issue of it and that are more outraged about it than Native Americans. It's like a form of outraged psycho mob that has taken over since the advent of the internet especially.
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Post by benstudd on Dec 3, 2017 3:55:18 GMT -5
Wrestling is a completely different beast than pretty much every other form of entertainment. Where as a character on a show being a clansman is expected... most people don't equate TV Actors and their roles, the same way that Wrestlers are. Secondly, alignment changes happen pretty often and it's not the territorial days where if a guy is playing a despicable heel in say Oregon then drives to New York and now can be a beloved babyface friend to everyone... everything you do in wrestling is pretty much visible to an international audience, especially if you are in the WWE. that's not even mentioning WWE's pretty shitty record of dealing with stuff like that. --- as for the "everyone so sensitive these days" tone a lot of posters are talking about. It's not like everyone woke up an realized that slurs were bad. It's that people that were the targets of them started being treated like people. or written far better than I could Seriously, if you "cannot express your opinion" for fear of it offending someone, maybe your opinion isn't worth expressing in the first place. Yes, there are people who look to be offended by everything, but they have always existed. What hasn't always existed is widespread rights and acceptance for minority peoples. It's not "politically correct" to remove homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, misandristic, xenophobic, and racist language and rhetoric from our daily lives, it's one of the basic principles of treating each other like normal human beings. Equals. The world is a better place for it. It's not that people want to express offensive things. It's that there's a barrier that prevents people to say what the Hell they want. I'm not a fan of saying offensive things but I'll fight for your right to say them. And you know what, if someone say those things? Then ignore them. Don't imprisone them or censor them. Reminds me of when Howard Stern came up on the airwaves in Quebec for the first time. He said a few offensive things about Quebecers. And it became a scandal, the nutcases pundits took over and then he was banned. I'm Quebecer and sure some of what he said were offensive to me. But I thought it was worse to ban him, to cut people the freedom to make up their own mind. I thought it was fascist that a few people decided for the rest of us what we should or should not hear or watch.
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Post by angryfan on Dec 3, 2017 4:18:08 GMT -5
Seriously, if you "cannot express your opinion" for fear of it offending someone, maybe your opinion isn't worth expressing in the first place. Yes, there are people who look to be offended by everything, but they have always existed. What hasn't always existed is widespread rights and acceptance for minority peoples. It's not "politically correct" to remove homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, misandristic, xenophobic, and racist language and rhetoric from our daily lives, it's one of the basic principles of treating each other like normal human beings. Equals. The world is a better place for it. It's not that people want to express offensive things. It's that there's a barrier that prevents people to say what the Hell they want. I'm not a fan of saying offensive things but I'll fight for your right to say them. And you know what, if someone say those things? Then ignore them. Don't imprisone them or censor them. Reminds me of when Howard Stern came up on the airwaves in Quebec for the first time. He said a few offensive things about Quebecers. And it became a scandal, the nutcases pundits took over and then he was banned. I'm Quebecer and sure some of what he said were offensive to me. But I thought it was worse to ban him, to cut people the freedom to make up their own mind. I thought it was fascist that a few people decided for the rest of us what we should or should not hear or watch. I'm all for freedom of speech, it's important, and I hear things regularly that just flat piss me off. Yes, they have every right to say it, whether I like it or agree with it or it makes me physically ill, but what they, what no one seems to grasp is one simple little fact. The words you choose are an action, and every action has a consequence. You may say whatever you like, but when you are faced with someone reacting to your words, with some consequence, then to scraem "No, you can't be mad, you're weak and triggered and you just want some safe space". Freedom of speech, any freedom actually, always comes with some responsibility. It sounds corny, but it's true. You are, I am, we all are responsible for our actions, our words, our choices in life. If I piss someone off and they express that I did so, then I am left with either owning what I said and appologizing or not, or I can start yelling about how they dont' understand, and how just because I said somethign that pissed them off, it's their own fault for being affected by my actions. The latter seems, frankly, both pointless and ironic. It serves no purpose, adn if I say something to make someone angry, and they react by simply telling me that it bothered them, with my follow up being to freak out because they did not simply accept my comment, insult that it was, and say nothing then they are somehow weak because they stood up for themselves, and I am strong because I became upset that soemone didn't like what I said. I hate to say it, but what I just labeled as weakness isn't weakness, and what I labeled as strong in that reaction scenario is about as far from strong as one can get. Hell, I can say what I want, and if I pisss someone off, then the only real mature and decent and, frankly, adult thing to do is own it. If I piss you off, well, we can discuss it like rational adults. If, however, I piss you off, you approach me to explain that I did so, and I react by screaming at you and, in essence, throwing a gianat fit about how everyone is out to get me and I can't express myself, then nothign is solved, nothing is accomplished, and it serves no purpose whatsoever.
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Post by The Barber on Dec 3, 2017 5:52:38 GMT -5
To get to the original posters point:
I, too, am not offended by the promo, but am concerned that he didn't express remorse over using it recently. Do you guys have a problem with AJ Styles using it in his promos? Has he apologized for using that word? Will you still support him if he hasn't?
When it comes to political correctness, I think that it's fine just as long as people don't go overboard with it and abuse its power.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 3, 2017 6:17:42 GMT -5
Wrestling is a completely different beast than pretty much every other form of entertainment. Where as a character on a show being a clansman is expected... most people don't equate TV Actors and their roles, the same way that Wrestlers are. Secondly, alignment changes happen pretty often and it's not the territorial days where if a guy is playing a despicable heel in say Oregon then drives to New York and now can be a beloved babyface friend to everyone... everything you do in wrestling is pretty much visible to an international audience, especially if you are in the WWE. that's not even mentioning WWE's pretty shitty record of dealing with stuff like that. --- as for the "everyone so sensitive these days" tone a lot of posters are talking about. It's not like everyone woke up an realized that slurs were bad. It's that people that were the targets of them started being treated like people. or written far better than I could I disagree so much with that line of thought. You have to respect people but you can't bash people over the head to respect people. Also I'm looking at my Prime Minister and it's like he is doing daily trips everywhere to apologizes for past mistakes. That's another element I cannot stand, this whole whiney oh my grand-parents were Evil, sorry for their actions. Nevermind that we were not in their skins. And I actually like flaws. For some reason, I respected more his father that I thought was a jerk than all this whiney stuff. Take the Washington Red Skins name stuff. I bet that it's the white people that make more of an issue of it and that are more outraged about it than Native Americans. It's like a form of outraged psycho mob that has taken over since the advent of the internet especially. From 2014Created by the Oneida tribePlease don't make assumptions.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Dec 3, 2017 7:44:02 GMT -5
Freedom of speech = a responsibility not to be a knobhead spouting shit.
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Post by CeilingFan on Dec 3, 2017 7:51:06 GMT -5
Freedom of speech = a responsibility not to be a knobhead spouting shit. Who decides that? I am sure there were Southerners who thought Abolitionists were spouting shit. There were many men who thought Susan B Anthony was spouting shit. I am also sure there were many White people who thought Martin Luther King was spouting shit. I guess it is a matter of perspective.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Dec 3, 2017 7:56:59 GMT -5
Freedom of speech = a responsibility not to be a knobhead spouting shit. Who decides that? I am sure there were Southerners who thought Abolitionists were spouting shit. There were many men who thought Susan B Anthony was spouting shit. I am also sure there were many White people who thought Martin Luther King was spouting shit. I guess it is a matter of perspective. I dunno... coastguard? 🤷♂️
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 3, 2017 18:41:50 GMT -5
Freedom of speech = a responsibility not to be a knobhead spouting shit. Who decides that? I am sure there were Southerners who thought Abolitionists were spouting shit. There were many men who thought Susan B Anthony was spouting shit. I am also sure there were many White people who thought Martin Luther King was spouting shit. I guess it is a matter of perspective. That's not the point being made. The point is that when you speak publicly, you have to accept that you will receive a response to your speech, and you may not like what others have to say about your opinion. Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B. Anthony, Frederick Douglass, Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez, and plenty of other fighters for equality spoke out knowing full well they'd get a lot of fury in return; they took ownership of their speech because they believed in the causes they fought for. They didn't curl up and say "you can't criticize my speech", they addressed their critics head-on. It helped that they had justice on their side, but that's the point: speaking publicly means getting public pushback and other types of responses, so it's best to avoid being a total jerk and to show some responsibility, instead.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2017 20:21:07 GMT -5
Christ, I think if I hear or see one more man-baby cry about how people are too sensitive without seeing the irony in legions of people bawling about that all day every day I think I'm going to f***ing scream.
I actually read an article not too long ago from fifty years ago where an academic was bitching about not being able to call black people the N-word publicly anymore and saying people were far too sensitive. Shit is killing me inside.
Big Edit: And while I'm at it. The "this generation" horseshit is just that. A bunch of horseshit. You all forgot all the stupid as f*** shit our generation blew up about and the generation before that. Just today I saw people bitching about a backlash over a hanging scene being in the new Call of Duty when you were able to kill an airport full of civilians in a previous game. As if they forgot that there was totally a backlash over that shit too back then. You've forgotten we had people FLIPPING THEIR SHIT about Batman and Robin looking kind of gay and comic books in general thanks to Seduction of the Innocent. That was all the way back in 1954. You forgot we had people FLIPPING THEIR SHIT about the f***ing Simpsons like it was written by the Anti-christ. But no man, it's those crazy left-wing SJWs today ruining everything.
"Political correctness is out of control!" This shit has been getting said for SIXTY GODDAMN, BUTT-f***ING YEARS. When did it start actually being "out of control"? Because it's always "Now it's out of control but it totally wasn't before!" People aren't more sensitive, they just have the ability to tell you when you're pissing them off much more easily than they did before. Before, it was possible to ignore them. Maybe people aren't more sensitive at all. Maybe they just have a voice and a say in things now. Maybe you're just like every generation that ever came before you which is to say, you're biologically predisposed to hate everything that is different from how your brain has been set up to think it should be. You end up in cognitive dissonance because you look at the world and see one where doing and saying things you used to see and do all the time is no longer acceptable. This upsets you.
Too bad. Boo hoo. Adapt and get along instead of crying about it all the time like you claim these people are doing about your totally harmless (but not actually) words and "jokes", and whatever else stupid f***ing nonsense you want to pick out.
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bog
ALF
Posts: 1,019
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Post by bog on Dec 3, 2017 20:47:39 GMT -5
The "but South Park said" thing has become really hard to swallow lately
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