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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 2, 2017 10:39:26 GMT -5
There's a balance between not liking a word and clutching your pearls in offence. When I see a middle-class white kid use the n-word, I cringe and my immediate thought is it slap the punk. But at the end of the day, I know it affects nothing, it's just a word and society will continue to function. I don't need to "Call him out" and make myself and pseudo-hero. Also when it comes to the "F**" word. The South Park episode pretty much nailed it. For me, it has nothing to do with being gay. It's used for annoying, obnoxious people. Such as Harley Davidson riders that make too much noise with their stupid bikes. SP is wrong on this issue. The fact that people still think it's acceptable to use that word as a generic term for describing someone as lame or foolish is a sign that there's still a good amount of entrenched homophobia in our society. The sooner people leave that by the wayside, the better. Like I said, it's a matter of showing sympathy and being considerate. How hard is it to just call someone a tool, instead? There's something very wrong when people are fighting so hard to say a slur that's been used to belittle and define an entire group of people as less then. We're still in an era where LGBTQ people are discriminated against in this country, and where their lives are in danger in parts of the world. Those are the issues people should be concerned with, not their right to say shitty words. And it's not like people don't have the freedom to say horrible slurs or hold prejudiced beliefs. But others also have the right to criticize them, and not grant them public platforms. Right; somebody could "intend" to say the word without insulting LGBT people, but intent doesn't much matter when only the person saying the word knows what their intention is. Doesn't suddenly make things alright for the gay kid who got beat up for daring to hold hands with another guy in public. Beyond that, yeah, if you want to do even something small to push society forward, it is incumbent on those of us who hear nasty crap to "call people out" on it, one hundred percent. It's what's at the heart of the whole sexual abuse scandals breaking out right now: predators routinely make "jokes" about harassment/abuse/rape, their friends who don't know something bad is going on laugh it off, and the predator uses that as fuel to say "I won't be punished for doing something shitty", a phenomenon that has been researched pretty well. Stuff like that only fades when regular people say something like "that's not cool" or "cut that shit out". If one wants to get annoyed at a middle class white kid in America saying they're personally offended at the use of whatever slur, fine, go ahead and get annoyed; we should just keep in mind that the "entitled snowflakes" who are asking us as a society to stop using certain phrases are, well, usually not those "entitled" people. They're usually the LGBT people, the minorities, the abuse survivors, the people who have actually seen some real shit in their lives and are speaking up about it. Welcome to the 21st century, where social media gives them an equal platform on which they can be heard and seen more easily than they were 20 years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 10:43:37 GMT -5
There's a balance between not liking a word and clutching your pearls in offence. When I see a middle-class white kid use the n-word, I cringe and my immediate thought is it slap the punk. But at the end of the day, I know it affects nothing, it's just a word and society will continue to function. I don't need to "Call him out" and make myself and pseudo-hero. Also when it comes to the "F**" word. The South Park episode pretty much nailed it. For me, it has nothing to do with being gay. It's used for annoying, obnoxious people. Such as Harley Davidson riders that make too much noise with their stupid bikes. SP is wrong on this issue. The fact that people still think it's acceptable to use that word as a generic term for describing someone as lame or foolish is a sign that there's still a good amount of entrenched homophobia in our society. The sooner people leave that by the wayside, the better. Like I said, it's a matter of showing sympathy and being considerate. How hard is it to just call someone a tool, instead? There's something very wrong when people are fighting so hard to say a slur that's been used to belittle and define an entire group of people as less then. We're still in an era where LGBTQ people are discriminated against in this country, and where their lives are in danger in parts of the world. Those are the issues people should be concerned with, not their right to say shitty words. And it's not like people don't have the freedom to say horrible slurs or hold prejudiced beliefs. But others also have the right to criticize them, and not grant them public platforms. Really, would you say the same thing to a parent whose child was murdered, attacked (be it verbally, physically or even professionally) because of their sexuality? This is an issue where we need to put ourselves into the shoes of others. Words evolve and have a different meaning over time. I agree that "F**" at one time was the worst thing you could call a gay person. But the word has evolved with time. Some gay people use it with eachother ironically. The insult "tool" is pretty benign today. But in 20 years, it might be considered the most offensive thing ever. The WWE probably shouldn't use the "F**" word. As they have have proven over the years, they don't have the ability to pull off something like this with subtlety or nuance. All I'm against is the idea, that there's not a single context in which the word could be used.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 2, 2017 10:49:15 GMT -5
SP is wrong on this issue. The fact that people still think it's acceptable to use that word as a generic term for describing someone as lame or foolish is a sign that there's still a good amount of entrenched homophobia in our society. The sooner people leave that by the wayside, the better. Like I said, it's a matter of showing sympathy and being considerate. How hard is it to just call someone a tool, instead? There's something very wrong when people are fighting so hard to say a slur that's been used to belittle and define an entire group of people as less then. We're still in an era where LGBTQ people are discriminated against in this country, and where their lives are in danger in parts of the world. Those are the issues people should be concerned with, not their right to say shitty words. And it's not like people don't have the freedom to say horrible slurs or hold prejudiced beliefs. But others also have the right to criticize them, and not grant them public platforms. Really, would you say the same thing to a parent whose child was murdered, attacked (be it verbally, physically or even professionally) because of their sexuality? This is an issue where we need to put ourselves into the shoes of others. Words evolve and have a different meaning over time. I agree that "F**" at one time was the worst thing you could call a gay person. But the word has evolved with time. Some gay people use it with eachother ironically. The insult "tool" is pretty benign today. But in 20 years, it might be considered the most offensive thing ever. Says who?
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Post by Jokaine on Dec 2, 2017 10:50:35 GMT -5
So people are bringing up the Jinder/Nakamura storyline showing he's a hypocritical, sleazy, racist POS and hey, you know what, that'd be a fine example of a storyline working... Except the racist won the match. In most mainstream movies, at least in this day and age, if someone is shown as discriminatory in any way, that person usually loses. Whether it's historical documentaries or biopics or any form of fiction, that person loses and is shown that the view they have is wrong. I mean, there ARE problems with this depending on the writer, the director, the actors etc but that seems to be the intention. In wrestling, however...Jinder won the feud. The racist proved himself right compared to the person he was being racist towards. It doesn't matter if his character was built that way...he still won. In one of their matches, he practically won CLEAN. Like, if it wasn't for this example, people would be talking about HHH/Booker T and people are probably tired of hearing about that one because it was well over a decade ago...so it's handy that WWE tried it again AND FAILED. Even with the Lawler example, there was a really long time where Goldust's character was heel for the style he had and the way he was acting...hence all that stuff that came about. I'm a huge proponent of anything goes in the world of good vs. Evil in art and entertainment. That said, you make a good point. If I have antagonist in a book who's a hate-mongering, racist pedophile, I know when I finish the novel if the heel got his comeuppance. Same with a movie. When telling a serialized story, I run the risk of the audience bailing out of frustration before seeing the endgame. That puts pressure on a creator to wrap it up quick or to announce in the beginning how many installments the story will contain. The other issue wrestling faces is the perception that every angle is a direct reflection of Vince McMahon's life views. No one thinks John Grisham secretly got disbarred because he writes about crooked lawyers or that Stephen King is an undercover racist sociopath because some of his villains are.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 10:54:45 GMT -5
Words evolve and have a different meaning over time. I agree that "F**" at one time was the worst thing you could call a gay person. But the word has evolved with time. Some gay people use it with eachother ironically. The insult "tool" is pretty benign today. But in 20 years, it might be considered the most offensive thing ever. Says who? Euphemism Treadmill. The word "retard" used to be the medical term for someone who was mentally challenged. People starting using it as an insult and we had to come up with a different term. There's several other examples.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 2, 2017 10:57:39 GMT -5
Euphemism Treadmill. The word "retard" used to be the medical term for someone who was mentally challenged. People starting using it as an insult and we had to come up with a different term. There's several other examples. No, I mean who said that using the f-word for gay people is suddenly not as big of a deal, especially if you're a straight person using it?
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 2, 2017 10:59:00 GMT -5
SP is wrong on this issue. The fact that people still think it's acceptable to use that word as a generic term for describing someone as lame or foolish is a sign that there's still a good amount of entrenched homophobia in our society. The sooner people leave that by the wayside, the better. Like I said, it's a matter of showing sympathy and being considerate. How hard is it to just call someone a tool, instead? There's something very wrong when people are fighting so hard to say a slur that's been used to belittle and define an entire group of people as less then. We're still in an era where LGBTQ people are discriminated against in this country, and where their lives are in danger in parts of the world. Those are the issues people should be concerned with, not their right to say shitty words. And it's not like people don't have the freedom to say horrible slurs or hold prejudiced beliefs. But others also have the right to criticize them, and not grant them public platforms. Really, would you say the same thing to a parent whose child was murdered, attacked (be it verbally, physically or even professionally) because of their sexuality? This is an issue where we need to put ourselves into the shoes of others. Words evolve and have a different meaning over time. I agree that "F**" at one time was the worst thing you could call a gay person. But the word has evolved with time. Some gay people use it with eachother ironically. The insult "tool" is pretty benign today. But in 20 years, it might be considered the most offensive thing ever. The WWE probably shouldn't use the "F**" word. As they have have proven over the years, they don't have the ability to pull off something like this with subtlety or nuance. All I'm against is the idea, that there's not a single context in which the word could be used. Y'know what? So be it. If enough people went up to me and gave a good argument for "tool", or any other insult being deeply offensive to them, then I'll stop using the word "tool" in that manner, with no issues. As more, different voices continue to gain volume, our standards are going to keep changing. That's just how it is, it can't be stopped. Like mentioned before, if society didn't continue to evolve, things like blackface would still be mainstream. I'm sure there were plenty of people in the 60's who were irked they couldn't draw money with minstrel shows anymore, and probably felt society had become too sensitive. But enough people were vocal about how damaging and historically insulting that practice was, so it faded away. And maybe there's a bunch of things we find acceptable in 2017 that will be frowned on ten years later. Okay! I accept that. I want to keep evolving as a person, and the way for me to achieve that is to keep listening to people when they speak out on things they find hurtful. I love Booker T to death, but I don't feel bad for him as a commentator about how he has to find non-offensive words to use to make a point. Dude, you're a color guy for the biggest wrestling company in the world. As a professional, that's your job.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 11:08:00 GMT -5
Euphemism Treadmill. The word "retard" used to be the medical term for someone who was mentally challenged. People starting using it as an insult and we had to come up with a different term. There's several other examples. No, I mean who said that using the f-word for gay people is suddenly not as big of a deal, especially if you're a straight person using it? Obviously there's no way to determine exactly how everyone in society feels about a certain word. But I would consider that "F**" in the 70-80s was predominately used as a slur towards gay people. Currently like the South Park episode implied, it's used more as a generic, nonsense word. There's probably younger kids who don't even know the origin of the word. Does that mean we should all start using it and everything is awesome for gay people? No, but there definitely is a different context to how the word is used.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 2, 2017 11:17:05 GMT -5
No, I mean who said that using the f-word for gay people is suddenly not as big of a deal, especially if you're a straight person using it? Obviously there's no way to determine exactly how everyone in society feels about a certain word. But I would consider that "F**" in the 70-80s was predominately used as a slur towards gay people. Currently like the South Park episode implied, it's used more as a generic, nonsense word. There's probably younger kids who don't even know the origin of the word. Does that mean we should all start using it and everything is awesome for gay people? No, but there definitely is a different context to how the word is used. Well, there might be a way. Would you go to a gay bar and use that word? That'd be a good indication of how the people who the word "used" to be about might feel about it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 11:24:16 GMT -5
Obviously there's no way to determine exactly how everyone in society feels about a certain word. But I would consider that "F**" in the 70-80s was predominately used as a slur towards gay people. Currently like the South Park episode implied, it's used more as a generic, nonsense word. There's probably younger kids who don't even know the origin of the word. Does that mean we should all start using it and everything is awesome for gay people? No, but there definitely is a different context to how the word is used. Well, there might be a way. Would you go to a gay bar and use that word? That'd be a good indication of how the people who the word "used" to be about might feel about it. I live in Vancouver, a city with one of the highest gay populations in the world. I've been to a gay bar a time or two. Some would be offended, some wouldn't care, most would be somewhere in the middle.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 2, 2017 11:29:25 GMT -5
Well, there might be a way. Would you go to a gay bar and use that word? That'd be a good indication of how the people who the word "used" to be about might feel about it. I live in Vancouver, a city with one of the highest gay populations in the world. I've been to a gay bar a time or two. Some would be offended, some wouldn't care, most would be somewhere in the middle. Some would be in the middle or offended. Well there you go, a significant number wouldn't like it, why use it? I live in London, also a massive gay population. Wouldn't think of using a word that's historically been the worst thing you can call gay people (by the way, if it isn't that word, what is it? I honestly can't think of a worse one that would have replaced it) because they get to decide what's offensive to them and what's not, and I haven't seen or heard of a large number of gay people giving it the OK, so I'm not gonna assume it's alright.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 2, 2017 11:40:27 GMT -5
No, I mean who said that using the f-word for gay people is suddenly not as big of a deal, especially if you're a straight person using it? Obviously there's no way to determine exactly how everyone in society feels about a certain word. But I would consider that "F**" in the 70-80s was predominately used as a slur towards gay people. Currently like the South Park episode implied, it's used more as a generic, nonsense word. There's probably younger kids who don't even know the origin of the word. But that's not true. People have used that word as a "generic, nonsense" insult word since the 70s and 80s, too, and today it's still used as an anti-gay slur in plenty of instances. South Park is usually hilarious but is also usually really, really bad about making social/historical points, because they don't actually research anything. And kids don't know the origin of the n-word for black people, either; so what?
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Post by ShaolinHandLock on Dec 2, 2017 11:50:09 GMT -5
This entire thread is doing my head in, yet I keep coming back to it because I can't help myself.
I've been trying to think of a way to express my thoughts on this, but I can't think of a way of doing it without potenitianlly, unintentionally upsetting people.
The more I read this thread, the more I feel like I'm going insane.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 2, 2017 11:51:54 GMT -5
I live in Vancouver, a city with one of the highest gay populations in the world. I've been to a gay bar a time or two. Some would be offended, some wouldn't care, most would be somewhere in the middle. Some would be in the middle or offended. Well there you go, a significant number wouldn't like it, why use it? I live in London, also a massive gay population. Wouldn't think of using a word that's historically been the worst thing you can call gay people (by the way, if it isn't that word, what is it? I honestly can't think of a worse one that would have replaced it) because they get to decide what's offensive to them and what's not, and I haven't seen or heard of a large number of gay people giving it the OK, so I'm not gonna assume it's alright. That's the main point we need to focus on- people who aren't part of a specific marginalized group don't get to decide what should or shouldn't be considered offensive. If Jerry feels he needs to walk on eggshells with his work today, then that's a personal problem all his own, not a problem with society at large. Goldust today is a perfectly fine character as an eccentric movie buff. But early on, they were definitely trying to stoke crowds' homophobia in how he was portrayed. The angle was gross then, and it comes off even worse today.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 11:58:11 GMT -5
Again, I'm not saying it's a great word and everyone should use it. I'm arguing for the right to use it, if you so choose. I'd rather live in a society where everything is fair game and everything is in the open, rather than walk on eggshells and worry about who's going to be offended.
If someone is beating up a gay person with a bat while yelling "F**". That person can go to prison for the rest of their life for all I care. But if someone is playing football and calls their friend a "F**" because he dropped a pass. We should understand that it's being used in a completely different context and with a far less hurtful intent.
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Post by Jokaine on Dec 2, 2017 12:02:39 GMT -5
Some would be in the middle or offended. Well there you go, a significant number wouldn't like it, why use it? I live in London, also a massive gay population. Wouldn't think of using a word that's historically been the worst thing you can call gay people (by the way, if it isn't that word, what is it? I honestly can't think of a worse one that would have replaced it) because they get to decide what's offensive to them and what's not, and I haven't seen or heard of a large number of gay people giving it the OK, so I'm not gonna assume it's alright. That's the main point we need to focus on- people who aren't part of a specific marginalized group don't get to decide what should or shouldn't be considered offensive. If Jerry feels he needs to walk on eggshells with his work today, then that's a personal problem all his own, not a problem with society at large. Goldust today is a perfectly fine character as an eccentric movie buff. But early on, they were definitely trying to stoke crowds' homophobia in how he was portrayed. The angle was gross then, and it comes off even worse today. I agree so much with your first point. It is still mind-boggling that so many white people in the United States feel they should have final say on what people of color in the United States should find offensive regarding race. On the other hand, I hate the idea of "walking on egg shells," when it comes to art for fear of offending someone. If you're telling a story that involves conflict and dastardly actions you will always run the risk of hitting too close to someone's home.
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Post by Larryhausen on Dec 2, 2017 12:19:41 GMT -5
Obviously there's no way to determine exactly how everyone in society feels about a certain word. But I would consider that "F**" in the 70-80s was predominately used as a slur towards gay people. Currently like the South Park episode implied, it's used more as a generic, nonsense word. There's probably younger kids who don't even know the origin of the word. Does that mean we should all start using it and everything is awesome for gay people? No, but there definitely is a different context to how the word is used. Well, there might be a way. Would you go to a gay bar and use that word? That'd be a good indication of how the people who the word "used" to be about might feel about it. I work at a dive bar in downtown Philly called McGlinchey's. One of my best regulars works at a dive bar down the street, in Philly's "Gayborhood." I went to see him at work one time and he loudly proclaimed "WELCOME TO F- MCGLINCHEY'S!!!!" The only thing I can offer to this conversation is that, based on my encounters, the word is starting to lose it's sting in some communities, and in 100 years or so might lose all weight. So yes, I would say the language is evolving. Or starting to, at least.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 2, 2017 12:22:56 GMT -5
Again, I'm not saying it's a great word and everyone should use it. I'm arguing for the right to use it, if you so choose. I'd rather live in a society where everything is fair game and everything is in the open, rather than walk on eggshells and worry about who's going to be offended. If someone is beating up a gay person with a bat while yelling "F**". That person can go to prison for the rest of their life for all I care. But if someone is playing football and calls their friend a "F**" because he dropped a pass. We should understand that it's being used in a completely different context and with a far less hurtful intent. But I'm not arguing that no one should have the right to use hateful remarks, or that the government should intervene. We're already granted those rights, we have the right to be hateful assholes if we so choose to our hearts' content. I'm saying that words like that, outside one's own home life or circle of friends, are less publically acceptable today than ever before, and one shouldn't be surprised when they face a backlash. My question would be to that one football friend, why that word? Knowing the history behind it, how it's been used to denigrate others and justify awful practices ranging from workplace discrimination to murder, is it really opening up that can of worms because you want to call your buddy a scrub? Just call them a scrub. To me, this isn't a situation about "walking on eggshells vs. freedom of speech ", because no one's freedom of expression is on trial here. It's about choosing to be a good, decent person vs. an open willingness to disrespect others because they're different from us.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 2, 2017 12:40:52 GMT -5
Well, there might be a way. Would you go to a gay bar and use that word? That'd be a good indication of how the people who the word "used" to be about might feel about it. I work at a dive bar in downtown Philly called McGlinchey's. One of my best regulars works at a dive bar down the street, in Philly's "Gayborhood." I went to see him at work one time and he loudly proclaimed "WELCOME TO F- MCGLINCHEY'S!!!!" The only thing I can offer to this conversation is that, based on my encounters, the word is starting to lose it's sting in some communities, and in 100 years or so might lose all weight. So yes, I would say the language is evolving. Or starting to, at least. If it does change? Good, but it's not 100 year from now. I'd also say that's not really what this conversation is about, that's like n-word privilages, a staff member using it proudly is reclaiming it. Someone using it in daily life as an insult is quite another.
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Post by Larryhausen on Dec 2, 2017 12:48:51 GMT -5
I work at a dive bar in downtown Philly called McGlinchey's. One of my best regulars works at a dive bar down the street, in Philly's "Gayborhood." I went to see him at work one time and he loudly proclaimed "WELCOME TO F- MCGLINCHEY'S!!!!" The only thing I can offer to this conversation is that, based on my encounters, the word is starting to lose it's sting in some communities, and in 100 years or so might lose all weight. So yes, I would say the language is evolving. Or starting to, at least. If it does change? Good, but it's not 100 year from now. I'd also say that's not really what this conversation is about, that's like n-word privilages, a staff member using it proudly is reclaiming it. Someone using it in daily life as an insult is quite another. I wasn't disagreeing with that point. I totally get that.
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