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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 23:15:53 GMT -5
throwing away years of work based on the "puppies" and catch phrases does a dishonest to both of them...I grew in Evansville Indiana...Lawler is the king...Ross post WM9 was on top of his game...You have to separate the carnie I didn't grow up during the territorial days. Lord, I was born the day Macho Man became Macho King. If I was born ten years prior, I'd likely have a different opinion, but truth be told, I don't care for either guy. I may be biased due to how annoying I thought both were when I first started watching, but JR's extreme brownnosing and making excuses for laziness make him mean nothing to me. take this in consideration dude was fired multiple times and ridiculed for bells palsy...trying to still be Monsoon...I agree he got lazy but damn wouldnt you eat the candy after awhile as well when every effort is in vain? Dude was no saint...Every interview with Jim i have done requires a plug of the site/sauce and a bottle...but once again keep in mind his wife just died horrifically...so respect is earned and us as arm chair quarterbacks getting pissed at everything doesnt help |
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Dec 1, 2017 23:21:44 GMT -5
I don't think many younger people really understand the differences. Times were so much different back then. When I was a kid, the things parents, and we, did would hardly fly today. It's just a whole different world now. I have two brothers, one 6 years older, one a year younger, we are all in our 30's now, we grew up watching horror movies. Parents now have such a different opinion of horror movies, and are wayyyyyy more sensitive about the matter. In my days, a very young kid watching Friday the 13th was just another Saturday night, no one really gave a damn about kids watching gore and boobs in a horror movie. I miss those days, so little to worry about. Now you just get a ton of soccer moms crying over every little thing. Agreed. It's not so much that this word wasn't bad(and you probably shouldn't say it on a wrestling show on national Tv) but it's that people get offended by everything nowadays and it's a generation overly pampered. We were forunate that we got to watch all this awesome stuff on TV uncensored with bad language and crazy images where our parents didn't mind or didn't get. While I'm looking at my nieces and nephews and how their parents basically thought that watching action movies were "too violent" and I'm sorry for them. I love the lawlessness that we grew up with. I remember when posting the helicopter scene in Predator didn't get you in trouble. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 1, 2017 23:26:11 GMT -5
We can all agree at least that vehicular violence in wrestling is always entertaining though, right? Stuff like that and HHH beating a handcuffed Daniel Bryan down while Steph screams "DROWN HIM!" is the kind of over the top heel shit I want to see more of. Absolutely. Cartoonishly over-the-top violence is strangely acceptable in pro wrestling because in context it's two guys who're going to extreme lengths in their competitive rivalry.. When you bring racist, xenophobic, or homophobic language into the mix it's less "both these guys really want to win" and more "one of these guys is an indefensible piece of shit." |
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Catalanotto
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Post by Catalanotto on Dec 1, 2017 23:49:35 GMT -5
About ten years or more ago my grandma asked what I wanted for Christmas. I said “There’s a new John Lennon biography I’d like to read”. This would be 2007isj. John Lennon was murdered in 1980. I was born in 1983. The Beatles came to America in 1964. My grandpa said “Goddamn Beatles!!!! With their hair, can’t tell if they are boys or girls!” He was still pissed at them in the 21st century. After half them were long dead. LOL We were born the same year, though I imagine you are a bit older as my birthday is December 31st. This generation is all about everyone getting stars for participation and watching what you say because someone might get offended. I guess it's because my general attitude is to shrug at little things I don't agree with and simply move on with life, but, wow, the amount of butthurt in the world right now is ridiculous. You're not allowed to express your opinion if it isn't politically correct. People also need to learn to differentiate between a character and an individual. Whether his opinions at the time had been his real thoughts or not, I don't really care personally, but, he was a heel, and they are meant to make people hate them, what better way than to be offensive? I get it, a heel can find other ways, but, really, getting a bit more personal ruffles more feathers. He would probably be fired immediately had he made those comments today because we now have to take in consideration the feelings of the masses. |
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on Dec 1, 2017 23:51:26 GMT -5
About ten years or more ago my grandma asked what I wanted for Christmas. I said “There’s a new John Lennon biography I’d like to read”. This would be 2007isj. John Lennon was murdered in 1980. I was born in 1983. The Beatles came to America in 1964. My grandpa said “Goddamn Beatles!!!! With their hair, can’t tell if they are boys or girls!” He was still pissed at them in the 21st century. After half them were long dead. LOL We were born the same year, though I imagine you are a bit older as my birthday is December 31st. This generation is all about everyone getting stars for participation and watching what you say because someone might get offended. I guess it's because my general attitude is to shrug at little things I don't agree with and simply move on with life, but, wow, the amount of butthurt in the world right now is ridiculous. You're not allowed to express your opinion if it isn't politically correct. People also need to learn to differentiate between a character and an individual. Whether his opinions at the time had been his real thoughts or not, I don't really care personally, but, he was a heel, and they are meant to make people hate them, what better way than to be offensive? I get it, a heel can find other ways, but, really, getting a bit more personal ruffles more feathers. He would probably be fired immediately had he made those comments today because we now have to take in consideration the feelings of the masses. Agree |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 0:31:13 GMT -5
About ten years or more ago my grandma asked what I wanted for Christmas. I said “There’s a new John Lennon biography I’d like to read”. This would be 2007isj. John Lennon was murdered in 1980. I was born in 1983. The Beatles came to America in 1964. My grandpa said “Goddamn Beatles!!!! With their hair, can’t tell if they are boys or girls!” He was still pissed at them in the 21st century. After half them were long dead. LOL We were born the same year, though I imagine you are a bit older as my birthday is December 31st. This generation is all about everyone getting stars for participation and watching what you say because someone might get offended. I guess it's because my general attitude is to shrug at little things I don't agree with and simply move on with life, but, wow, the amount of butthurt in the world right now is ridiculous. You're not allowed to express your opinion if it isn't politically correct. People also need to learn to differentiate between a character and an individual. Whether his opinions at the time had been his real thoughts or not, I don't really care personally, but, he was a heel, and they are meant to make people hate them, what better way than to be offensive? I get it, a heel can find other ways, but, really, getting a bit more personal ruffles more feathers. He would probably be fired immediately had he made those comments today because we now have to take in consideration the feelings of the masses.  |
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Post by nickcave on Dec 2, 2017 1:36:13 GMT -5
I'm a little baffled at how little empathy people can have sometimes. Maybe to you that word has no meaning but to someone who is gay that word has been used to denigrate and hurt them for decades so I completely understand not wanting to turn on something like wrestling to escape shit like that only to have it shoved in your face. Yes, he's a villain but there are other ways to get heat that don't resort to homophobia. And no no one is saying that you can't show that kind of thing in fiction but usually that stuff has to be handled subtly or with some depth. Things in which WWE has shown no capabilities of using whatsoever so it's probably best to just not do it.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 2, 2017 1:48:19 GMT -5
Wrestling is a completely different beast than pretty much every other form of entertainment. Where as a character on a show being a clansman is expected... most people don't equate TV Actors and their roles, the same way that Wrestlers are. Secondly, alignment changes happen pretty often and it's not the territorial days where if a guy is playing a despicable heel in say Oregon then drives to New York and now can be a beloved babyface friend to everyone... everything you do in wrestling is pretty much visible to an international audience, especially if you are in the WWE. that's not even mentioning WWE's pretty shitty record of dealing with stuff like that. --- as for the "everyone so sensitive these days" tone a lot of posters are talking about. It's not like everyone woke up an realized that slurs were bad. It's that people that were the targets of them started being treated like people. or written far better than I could  |
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ISO Mid Thigh Pull
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Post by ISO Mid Thigh Pull on Dec 2, 2017 1:53:03 GMT -5
About ten years or more ago my grandma asked what I wanted for Christmas. I said “There’s a new John Lennon biography I’d like to read”. This would be 2007isj. John Lennon was murdered in 1980. I was born in 1983. The Beatles came to America in 1964. My grandpa said “Goddamn Beatles!!!! With their hair, can’t tell if they are boys or girls!” He was still pissed at them in the 21st century. After half them were long dead. This generation is all about everyone getting stars for participation and watching what you say because someone might get offended. I guess it's because my general attitude is to shrug at little things I don't agree with and simply move on with life, but, wow, the amount of butthurt in the world right now is ridiculous. You're not allowed to express your opinion if it isn't politically correct. People also need to learn to differentiate between a character and an individual. Whether his opinions at the time had been his real thoughts or not, I don't really care personally, but, he was a heel, and they are meant to make people hate them, what better way than to be offensive? I get it, a heel can find other ways, but, really, getting a bit more personal ruffles more feathers. He would probably be fired immediately had he made those comments today because we now have to take in consideration the feelings of the masses. Or you could just not throw slurs at people Like, it's not that challenging, honestly. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Dec 2, 2017 2:24:32 GMT -5
Wrestling is a completely different beast than pretty much every other form of entertainment. Where as a character on a show being a clansman is expected... most people don't equate TV Actors and their roles, the same way that Wrestlers are. Secondly, alignment changes happen pretty often and it's not the territorial days where if a guy is playing a despicable heel in say Oregon then drives to New York and now can be a beloved babyface friend to everyone... everything you do in wrestling is pretty much visible to an international audience, especially if you are in the WWE. that's not even mentioning WWE's pretty shitty record of dealing with stuff like that. --- as for the "everyone so sensitive these days" tone a lot of posters are talking about. It's not like everyone woke up an realized that slurs were bad. It's that people that were the targets of them started being treated like people. or written far better than I could Seriously, if you "cannot express your opinion" for fear of it offending someone, maybe your opinion isn't worth expressing in the first place. Yes, there are people who look to be offended by everything, but they have always existed. What hasn't always existed is widespread rights and acceptance for minority peoples. It's not "politically correct" to remove homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, misandristic, xenophobic, and racist language and rhetoric from our daily lives, it's one of the basic principles of treating each other like normal human beings. Equals. The world is a better place for it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 2:42:12 GMT -5
I think it's a good thing that we're living in a time that encourages people to be more thoughtful in what they do or say, even if I think both sides of the argument can stand to pick their battles better sometimes. I can watch the promo and give Lawler the benefit of the doubt that it's not a reflection of his personal beliefs as much as it is a wrestler using a harsh vocabulary to put heat on a match.
You can make a creative argument for it - Goldust was a great character, in the way that he played up sexuality to give him a competitive edge and in Lawler's case, provoke ugly behavior. But I think it would be giving WWE too much credit to think they were putting any more thought into stuff like that than simply trying to be shocking. It was a promo for a heel vs. heel match, and such a heavy slur was used so flippantly, it was so throwaway that Lawler might as well have been calling Goldust a "jerk," in how it mattered so little to the story that he said it.
It was typical 90s shock jockery, it had its place at the time and I don't think there was malicious intent behind it, but I think that stuff is far better left in the past. In a business where it takes decades to realize that slamming chairs into peoples' heads is unhealthy, and that women can wrestle like the guys do, they're just not the avenue for this sort of stuff. As others have said here, pro wrestling is an environment where such homophobia can accidentally stumble into a face pop, it's not worth it.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 2, 2017 3:09:01 GMT -5
Wrestling is a completely different beast than pretty much every other form of entertainment. Where as a character on a show being a clansman is expected... most people don't equate TV Actors and their roles, the same way that Wrestlers are. Secondly, alignment changes happen pretty often and it's not the territorial days where if a guy is playing a despicable heel in say Oregon then drives to New York and now can be a beloved babyface friend to everyone... everything you do in wrestling is pretty much visible to an international audience, especially if you are in the WWE. that's not even mentioning WWE's pretty shitty record of dealing with stuff like that. --- as for the "everyone so sensitive these days" tone a lot of posters are talking about. It's not like everyone woke up an realized that slurs were bad. It's that people that were the targets of them started being treated like people. or written far better than I could Seriously, if you "cannot express your opinion" for fear of it offending someone, maybe your opinion isn't worth expressing in the first place. Yes, there are people who look to be offended by everything, but they have always existed. What hasn't always existed is widespread rights and acceptance for minority peoples. It's not "politically correct" to remove homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, misandristic, xenophobic, and racist language and rhetoric from our daily lives, it's one of the basic principles of treating each other like normal human beings. Equals. The world is a better place for it. Not using slurs, treating people with respect isn't "politically correct". It's just correct. |
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Dec 2, 2017 3:21:18 GMT -5
We can all agree at least that vehicular violence in wrestling is always entertaining though, right? Stuff like that and HHH beating a handcuffed Daniel Bryan down while Steph screams "DROWN HIM!" is the kind of over the top heel shit I want to see more of. That was generally regarded as one of the better heel moments of recent times. Another was the Seth/Edge/Cena segment. Another the Festival of Friendship. This idea that people today are scared of mature elements in entertainment is bogus. Take a quick look at the biggest tv shows right now. A few decades ago shows like The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones wouldn't fly. Remember the whole "video nasties" phase? People used to campaign to stamp out violent and sexual entertainment and succeeded. Yet homophobic/racist/sexist slurs were a lot more acceptable. This time that bigots want to go back to was actually the most sensitive time of all. Irony of ironies! But yeah, apparently people today have become too sensitive because they wised up when it comes to terms that seek to alienate people. |
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 2, 2017 8:56:30 GMT -5
About ten years or more ago my grandma asked what I wanted for Christmas. I said “There’s a new John Lennon biography I’d like to read”. This would be 2007isj. John Lennon was murdered in 1980. I was born in 1983. The Beatles came to America in 1964. My grandpa said “Goddamn Beatles!!!! With their hair, can’t tell if they are boys or girls!” He was still pissed at them in the 21st century. After half them were long dead. LOL We were born the same year, though I imagine you are a bit older as my birthday is December 31st. This generation is all about everyone getting stars for participation and watching what you say because someone might get offended. I guess it's because my general attitude is to shrug at little things I don't agree with and simply move on with life, but, wow, the amount of butthurt in the world right now is ridiculous. You're not allowed to express your opinion if it isn't politically correct. People also need to learn to differentiate between a character and an individual. Whether his opinions at the time had been his real thoughts or not, I don't really care personally, but, he was a heel, and they are meant to make people hate them, what better way than to be offensive? I get it, a heel can find other ways, but, really, getting a bit more personal ruffles more feathers. He would probably be fired immediately had he made those comments today because we now have to take in consideration the feelings of the masses. I'm the same age as you. And I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. There comes a point when characters that are meant to entertain people shouldn't go into a realm where people are legitimately bothered or offended. It's supposed to be a simulated sports show, not a reflection of some of the nastier real world elements that many people in the audience probably went to the show to take their mind off of. Racist, sexist and homophobic heels need to be left in the past. I don't care if they get their comeuppance or not, I don't want to watch them anymore and I'm sure many others don't either. Wrestling angles should be about wrestling, championships and trying to prove they're the strongest, not things that are actually pretty inconsequential if you look at them. As for the amount of "butt hurt" in the world, that looks more to me like marginalized voices- namely women, people of color, LGBTQ, people, the physically or mentally challenged, etc- are making their voices heard, and are more open about these sort of things that make them uncomfortable. And I feel it's high time wrestling fans as a whole start showing more sympathy for others when they say they're offended. I'm not saying white, straight men are making wrestling inherently bad or anything, but we need to start taking into consideration other kinds of people's perspectives if we're going to move wrestling forward. |
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Post by Yacht Persona on Dec 2, 2017 9:37:02 GMT -5
As someone who's 33 years old and grew up when things were less "politically correct" or whatever older people complain about these days, I have no issue with times changing to reflect more respect in how we interact with one another. I don't think it's that the younger generations are more sensitive, it's that they're more willing to call people out on their bullshit. Just because the offensive things you once said are now being called out for what they are, it doesn't mean the world is more sensitive. It means you never grew up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2017 10:01:54 GMT -5
There's a balance between not liking a word and clutching your pearls in offence. When I see a middle-class white kid use the n-word, I cringe and my immediate thought is it slap the punk. But at the end of the day, I know it affects nothing, it's just a word and society will continue to function. I don't need to "Call him out" and make myself and pseudo-hero.
Also when it comes to the "F**" word. The South Park episode pretty much nailed it. For me, it has nothing to do with being gay. It's used for annoying, obnoxious people. Such as Harley Davidson riders that make too much noise with their stupid bikes.
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Post by Jokaine on Dec 2, 2017 10:14:34 GMT -5
Lawler is right about everything he said in that clip. Not sure where the disagreement or loss of respect comes in. I don't know Lawler personally so I don't know his beliefs, but he was a heel cutting a heel promo in a time when you could get away with saying certain things for heel heat. He said a heel can't act that way now because everyone is offended by everything, and again, he's right. This is a scripted show where the commentators tell you it's fake, the audience knows it's fake, and they have a 30 year history of not exactly being high brow television, but now suddenly people are holding them to some high moral ground, and it makes no sense to me. If you're sensitive about social issues, then being a fan of pro wrestling to begin with is questionable. There's enough examples of racism (overt or subtle), sexism, etc, etc) to fill a football stadium. It's fake. It's telling a story. Granted, the WWE and good storytelling haven't gone together in a long time, but there are ways to use controversial things to the benefit of a story. Back then, twenty years ago, it was an acceptable way to get heel heat. Today, it isn't. You can say that's a good thing due to society progressing, or a bad thing for how sensitive everyone is, but it's reality. The poster above mentioned Shawn and the Canadian flag. If I'm remembering correctly, Shawn actually rubbed his crotch with the flag and dry humped it at Survivor Series 1997. There is a list a mile long of things that happened twenty years ago that wouldn't fly today. Some with good reason. The Canadian flag would still fly today. We’re not that uppity about our flag. We’re proud of it and all but it’s nothing like the kids in the US, at all. Most of the the kids in the U.S. don't get all that wound up about the flag either until a person or group of persons to whom they object are perceived to have slighted it in the midst of a protest that has nothing to do with the flag itself. |
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Post by TheMediocreWarrior on Dec 2, 2017 10:20:11 GMT -5
I'm of the belief that damn near anything should be fair game in the entertainment business when handled correctly, but I'm also of the belief that WWE lacks the subtlety to pull stuff like that off. However, there are companies I would have faith in doing that. I'm honestly kind of split on this. I want to say that in the context of a heel saying it, it should be okay as long as the heel gets their comeuppance. WWE's problem is that the heels end up winning (Triple H at WrestleMania 19 and Jinder Mahal recently). On the other hand, those words hurt even in a fictional context, so I can understand wanting to avoid it completely. Plus there are other ways for a heel to get heat without sinking to those kind of lows. Plus children are watching that probably can't understand context yet. Maybe these kind of topics can be handled in other kinds of fiction, but in something as silly as wrestling it's best left out. Also, looking back on the Attitude Era, I'm glad a lot of those kinds of things are history. The stuff that Jim Cornette points out as the Jerry Springer kind of elements distracted from the wrestling and reinforced negative opinions of wrestling for some people. The main event scene during the Attitude Era was awesome, but there were a lot of midcard acts that were always cringe worthy. |
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 2, 2017 10:23:19 GMT -5
There's a balance between not liking a word and clutching your pearls in offence. When I see a middle-class white kid use the n-word, I cringe and my immediate thought is it slap the punk. But at the end of the day, I know it affects nothing, it's just a word and society will continue to function. I don't need to "Call him out" and make myself and pseudo-hero. Also when it comes to the "F**" word. The South Park episode pretty much nailed it. For me, it has nothing to do with being gay. It's used for annoying, obnoxious people. Such as Harley Davidson riders that make too much noise with their stupid bikes. SP is wrong on this issue. The fact that people still think it's acceptable to use that word as a generic term for describing someone as lame or foolish is a sign that there's still a good amount of entrenched homophobia in our society. The sooner people leave that by the wayside, the better. Like I said, it's a matter of showing sympathy and being considerate. How hard is it to just call someone a tool, instead? There's something very wrong when people are fighting so hard to say a slur that's been used to belittle and define an entire group of people as less then. We're still in an era where LGBTQ people are discriminated against in this country, and where their lives are in danger in parts of the world. Those are the issues people should be concerned with, not their right to say shitty words. And it's not like people don't have the freedom to say horrible slurs or hold prejudiced beliefs. But others also have the right to criticize them, and not grant them public platforms. Really, would you say the same thing to a parent whose child was murdered, attacked (be it verbally, physically or even professionally) because of their sexuality? This is an issue where we need to put ourselves into the shoes of others. |
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Post by celtics543 on Dec 2, 2017 10:38:39 GMT -5
I find it interesting that despite the increase in "political correctness" kids are sexting each other at an alarming rate and based on my observations as a high school teacher I'd argue drug use is up from where it was in the late 90's/early 2000's. Every kid is very politically correct in what they say but actions don't seem to match those words and they do a lot of other stuff that is probably more harmful.
As far as this topic though, I could understand if King was portrayed as a face character at that point but he was a heel and Goldust got his revenge. It's most likely unnecessary to use any slur but if it's a heel using it and they get their comeuppance then I don't see a huge issue. Completely different if a face character is using it to get pops, that's never necessary. I think the parallel is actually Harry Potter. Mudblood is used as a slur all the time in that book and in the end the "pure blood" heels get their comeuppance and everyone comes away knowing that blood status doesn't matter.
I find political correctness funny because for most people they say everyone is too politically correct about issues that don't mean anything to them but justified in their outrage about issues that mean something to them. As per usual the solution lies somewhere in the middle.
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