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Post by corndog on Feb 11, 2018 11:23:06 GMT -5
Man, people are really hating on Okada winning and really the show as a hole. I would be lying to say I wasn't pulling for SANADA, but this was really his "breakout" performance. It was also some brilliant storytelling as Okada forced SANADA out of his shell and in doing so, learning who he was giving him an advantage he didn't have before. At the same time, we all learned who SANADA really is in that match and so did Okada.
I said this on Reddit, but SANADA needs a finisher that can give him the pinfall, something like a Rainmaker or Destino that he can pull out of anywhere. To me, this match showed SANADA was ready for the next level, but he still has a few more pieces to put together to get to the top. He will be back in this position again, and hopefully next time he wins.
As far as Okada's win, I can see the disappointment here. This was a match where I think a lot of people were hoping for an upset, much like Okada's first title win. It definitely would have been fun and it would have taken things in an interesting direction. Unfortunately, probably only one of two guys are unseeding Okada, Naito or Omega. But I looked at the one thing I really wanted to see from this match and that is was SANADA ready to step up to next level? The answer cleary is yes.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,089
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 11, 2018 17:36:13 GMT -5
Overall I'd say Naito was in a different position than Omega was in 2017 going into WK. Omega was a guy who had recently taken the reins of the Bullet Club and was in the midst of a 1st major push, so main eventing WK and having an amazing match kind of made sense (even in a loss). Naito though? That build to WK was an entire redemption arc going over the past 4 years, and then he blew it and lost. It's kind of tough to ever fully come back from something like that even if he wins the title later. As far as this consecutive title defenses thing...I mean who cares honestly? The thing I don't get about Okada's booking is that he is portrayed as the "best on the planet" ace of the company and yet also in a way the guy who the office is behind like he's in the Authority or something. It's really tough to pull off both of those at once since being the office's golden boy is a spot that is decidedly heelish and also not viewed as being legit "the best." I think it's just the difference between Japanese fans and NA fans in general. The Japanese see the office getting behind someone as being "If they can get fully behind him and trust him to be the face of the company, so can I". NA fans see it as "They have to put the machine behind him because he's not good enough to win us over all on his own!".
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Feb 11, 2018 18:34:40 GMT -5
As far as this consecutive title defenses thing...I mean who cares honestly? The thing I don't get about Okada's booking is that he is portrayed as the "best on the planet" ace of the company and yet also in a way the guy who the office is behind like he's in the Authority or something. It's really tough to pull off both of those at once since being the office's golden boy is a spot that is decidedly heelish and also not viewed as being legit "the best." Because they're so willing to play Okada as a heel and give him some ambiguity, Gedo is able to show the very clear declaration of him as the golden boy by outright letting himself become the manifestation of the office's belief in Okada. One of the biggest issues with Roman is that you have all these authority figure heels constantly running him down or Vince coming out to act like he doesn't jerk off to pictures of the guy, and all anyone can do is roll their eyes at the fact they're pretending. With Okada, it's right there in everyone's face; the f***ing booker himself is here to hype the guy up as the best. For those who like Okada and want him to succeed, Gedo is a hype man. For those who want to boo him, they're putting it right there in everyone's faces to boo instead of acting like it's anything else. They're as up-front and open as they can be about the reality of Okada as the top guy rather than fighting it. It's an almost refreshing kind of honesty, I think.
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 11, 2018 19:39:40 GMT -5
As far as this consecutive title defenses thing...I mean who cares honestly? The thing I don't get about Okada's booking is that he is portrayed as the "best on the planet" ace of the company and yet also in a way the guy who the office is behind like he's in the Authority or something. It's really tough to pull off both of those at once since being the office's golden boy is a spot that is decidedly heelish and also not viewed as being legit "the best." Because they're so willing to play Okada as a heel and give him some ambiguity, Gedo is able to show the very clear declaration of him as the golden boy by outright letting himself become the manifestation of the office's belief in Okada. One of the biggest issues with Roman is that you have all these authority figure heels constantly running him down or Vince coming out to act like he doesn't jerk off to pictures of the guy, and all anyone can do is roll their eyes at the fact they're pretending. With Okada, it's right there in everyone's face; the f***ing booker himself is here to hype the guy up as the best. For those who like Okada and want him to succeed, Gedo is a hype man. For those who want to boo him, they're putting it right there in everyone's faces to boo instead of acting like it's anything else. They're as up-front and open as they can be about the reality of Okada as the top guy rather than fighting it. It's an almost refreshing kind of honesty, I think. And a lot of that is an extension of Okada's initial post-excursion push: they were all too aware that fans might rebel when the upstart Okada came out of nowhere and unseated the true ace Tanahashi, so before that could even happen they hung a lampshade on it: "yeah, we're pushing him to the top title out of the gate, we're even making the @#$%ing booker his manager, big whoop, wanna fight about it?" It's hard to appreciate now just how vital Tanahashi was to the show around the time of WK 8; there really was nobody full-time on the roster who could sniff his position on the card, and pretty justifiably so, so having this punk kid who had gone over and been humiliated in TNA come back and beat him right away, all while tossing dollar bills around, wearing gold threads and all that? Yeah, they knew to jump out ahead of it.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Feb 11, 2018 20:20:34 GMT -5
Because they're so willing to play Okada as a heel and give him some ambiguity, Gedo is able to show the very clear declaration of him as the golden boy by outright letting himself become the manifestation of the office's belief in Okada. One of the biggest issues with Roman is that you have all these authority figure heels constantly running him down or Vince coming out to act like he doesn't jerk off to pictures of the guy, and all anyone can do is roll their eyes at the fact they're pretending. With Okada, it's right there in everyone's face; the f***ing booker himself is here to hype the guy up as the best. For those who like Okada and want him to succeed, Gedo is a hype man. For those who want to boo him, they're putting it right there in everyone's faces to boo instead of acting like it's anything else. They're as up-front and open as they can be about the reality of Okada as the top guy rather than fighting it. It's an almost refreshing kind of honesty, I think. And a lot of that is an extension of Okada's initial post-excursion push: they were all too aware that fans might rebel when the upstart Okada came out of nowhere and unseated the true ace Tanahashi, so before that could even happen they hung a lampshade on it: "yeah, we're pushing him to the top title out of the gate, we're even making the @#$%ing booker his manager, big whoop, wanna fight about it?" Its hard to appreciate now just how vital Tanahashi was to the show around the time of WK 8; there really was nobody full-time on the roster who could sniff his position on the card, and pretty justifiably so, so having this punk kid who had gone over and been humiliated in TNA come back and beat him right away, all while tossing dollar bills around, wearing gold threads and all that? Yeah, they knew to jump out ahead of it. And it's worked wonders for what they're trying to do. No insider shooty "I'm the guy" comments and smirks to a hostile audience before he walks back and the commentators shill how weird it is that these contrarian fans won't cheer for him. The reality of what Okada is to the company is right there for everyone to see and forms a major part of his act, and they used it to great effect as far as a shield to weather the initial rough patch and make sure everyone sees right up front what the reality is. It's damn refreshing.
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Post by cabbageboy on Feb 11, 2018 23:24:53 GMT -5
Here is the thing about that. The Japanese fans didn't really have to watch him act like Kato from the Green Hornet in TNA and carry Samoa Joe's bags as his chauffeur. American fans did however and say what you want but there is always going to be that ever so slight cognitive dissonance associated with that dude being the best wrestler on earth after you saw that. Naito had a nothing run in TNA with Yujiro as a tag team but it was a token little run that was opening match fodder and nothing embarrassing gimmick wise that I recall. I had forgotten that I even saw Naito wrestle in person at a 2009 house show, but I certainly remember Okada's goofy TNA run. In fact I vaguely remember scoffing at the idea of THAT guy being a top champion in Japan when I heard he won the IWGP title. While it is refreshing that Gedo is the booker and his actual onscreen handler I'm not sure this sort of thing is going to help NJPW long term in regards to intl. expansion. It's actually getting to the point where the Japanese fans are sick of it as well, hence the popularity of anti-establishment guys like Naito or Omega.
NJPW oddly enough needs to be cognizant of this in the future when it comes to guys on excursion. If the idea is to expand into America it's probably not a good idea to send guys over here and let them be used in a less than stellar way. On a similar note it's why I am having trouble with the Jay White push, mainly because I saw him as a semi jobber in ROH getting waxed by Punishment Martinez and such. With TNA one could argue that NJPW had no particular designs yet on America so if their own fans had no idea Okada was a joke in TNA it didn't matter, but with Jay White it's a different deal. ROH and NJPW co-promote shows in the USA and White's losses in ROH are actually in the books. If you are an American fan watching this guy not especially distinguish himself in ROH and lose fairly often it's kind of baffling that he would suddenly go back to Japan and get a WK match with Tanahashi, beat Omega for the U.S. title (!), and already start calling out Okada while joining him. It's a bit of a scary commentary on NJPW's lack of top guys that they would resort to a guy that frankly needs another 2-3 years of seasoning before ever being given this sort of push.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Feb 12, 2018 23:19:51 GMT -5
Some Honor Rising matches.
Beer City Bruiser is Goto's challenger. Here's to Kushida or Hiromu destroying Flip in the rare three-way.
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Chainsaw
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It is what it is
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Post by Chainsaw on Feb 12, 2018 23:25:38 GMT -5
Some Honor Rising matches. Beer City Bruiser is Goto's challenger. Here's to Kushida or Hiromu destroying Flip in the rare three-way. That's...some weird pairings. Switchblade and Taguchi? Oh, duh, I just realized it's a 6-Man, not a Triple threat tag team. That makes much more sense.
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Convoy
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Posts: 7,517
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Post by Convoy on Feb 13, 2018 0:16:59 GMT -5
Full cards released for both shows.
2/23: Kenny Omega, Kota Ibushi & Chase Owens vs. Cody, Hangman Page & Marty Scurll NEVER Openweight Championship: Hirooki Goto (c) vs. The Beer City Bruiser Dalton Castle, Jay Lethal & Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Jay White, Beretta & Chuckie T KUSHIDA vs. Hiromu Takahashi vs. Flip Gordon Juice Robinson & David Finlay vs. The Young Bucks Jushin Thunder Liger, Delirious & Cheeseburger vs. Tama Tonga, Tanga Loa & HIKULEO Toa Henare & Katsuya Kitamura vs. Bad Luck Fale & Yujiro Takahashi
2/24: Kenny Omega & Kota Ibushi vs. Cody & Marty Scurll ROH World Championship: Dalton Castle (c) vs. Beretta Jay White, YOSHI-HASHI & Chuckie T vs. The Hung Bucks NEVER Openweight 6-Man Tag Team Championship: Bad Luck Fale, Tama Tonga & Tanga Loa (c) vs. Jushin Thunder Liger, Delirious & Cheeseburger Flip Gordon & Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Hiromu Takahashi & BUSHI Jay Lethal, Juice Robinson & David Finlay vs. Yujiro Takahashi, Chase Owens & HIKULEO Toa Henare vs. The Beer City Bruiser
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Post by BRAINFADE on Feb 13, 2018 2:57:17 GMT -5
Those are pretty good cards. Apart from the obvious big news if the Golden Lovers match, two that jump out are the NEVER title match and the KUSHIDA/Hiromu/Flip match.
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Allie Kitsune
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Always Feelin' Foxy.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 13, 2018 6:26:59 GMT -5
Dalton, Lethal, & Taguchi = "Taguchi RoH"?
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