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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 29, 2018 12:12:07 GMT -5
This stuck out a lot to me last night: while the Rumbles certainly weren't bad (a nice departure from the past few years), there was a lot of time when it didn't feel like much was happening; lots of time with wrestlers just lying on the mat or rolling outside the ring, or people clearing space away so a big spot could happen, stuff like that.
I'm of the mind that really good Patterson-booked Rumbles had a few key components going for them: -New, different, and interesting combinations of guys getting to fight with one another, whether face vs. face, heel vs. heel, main eventers vs. lower card guy, etc. -The sheer spectacle of seeing so many wrestlers in the ring at one time. -A constant sense of kinetic energy with action going on at all times, allowing the match to seem longer and more grueling, thus making a win feel like survival.
I guess "down time" might not be the right way to put this, but after seeing the past few Rumbles, which have ranged from disastrous (2015) to pretty good (last night, though your mileage may obviously vary), I feel like these post-Patterson Rumbles are missing a couple of the big components. The sight of a ton of people in the ring at once is still there, the matchups still have a few interesting combos even though matchups get burned through a lot more quickly than in the old days, but that last one didn't seem to click for me.
Last night, for example, it felt too often that the people in the ring would clear space so that a new guy could come in and get a few spots in, or that some people would kind of fade away from the match and sort of be invisible; heck, in the women's Rumble there were long stretches where some of them just rolled out of the ring for 5-10 minutes and weren't seen or heard from until they popped up again out of nowhere, a spot that made sense for the Jax/Phoenix confrontation, but kept happening, anyway. Maybe it was the camera work, but it felt like a new guy or two would come in, and suddenly the other participants were on the mat or just invisible; the spot became the focus rather than the scope of the fight. Plus when a jobber/lower card guy entered you just knew they'd be in for about 2 minutes and be there to eat a "creative" elimination...not saying they shouldn't ever do that, and the Slater spots were pretty damn funny, but it did make what should be a really chaotic match feel a bit predictable during the middle portion.
I guess what was missing was a sense that participants were spending the entire time fighting; that even if they were catching their breath, they were still in a corner throwing a few punches or body blows, or spending more time actively attempting to eliminate someone. Really stood out at the end of the men's one when it felt like Cena and Roman hit Finn and Nakamura once, then suddenly those two were down for five minutes...then they got up and hit Cena and Reigns once and suddenly THOSE two were down for five minutes.
I'm not just going nuts here in my old age, am I? Again, not bashing the Rumbles as they were still pretty good, but just felt like those components weren't fully in place.
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pegasuswarrior
El Dandy
Three Time FAN Idol Champion
@PulpPictionary
Posts: 8,748
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Jan 29, 2018 12:18:37 GMT -5
I don’t disagree. Not entirely sure I would say too much down time. Just not the best management of talent, that I agree with.
My two cents is that it totally needs to be 2 minutes between entrants. And yes, all of the points you made about unique matchups needs to be way more of thing. Plenty of opportunity for more unique spots or unique team-ups and head-to-heads. The problem is that they’ve taken away the “big match” feel in a lot of ways by making this whole company a frat boy/sorority girl hangout instead of a competition where everyone wants to get to the top.
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Post by thegame415 on Jan 29, 2018 12:18:55 GMT -5
What was the last one he booked?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 12:19:42 GMT -5
I know that the use of going under the bottom ropes to take a breather and come back in later is something that needs to go ASAP. That was way overdone in the women's rumble.
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Post by lionelp on Jan 29, 2018 12:25:28 GMT -5
I know that the use of going under the bottom ropes to take a breather and come back in later is something that needs to go ASAP. That was way overdone in the women's rumble. How many of those women have previous experience in working a match of that intensity? I think it was just a necessary thing to keep the standard of delivery as high as possible, they are not exposed to the same amount of conditioning as the guys, especially the greener superstars.
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Post by Tenshigure on Jan 29, 2018 12:32:14 GMT -5
I think one of the biggest issues with current era Rumble matches is that they lean HARD into the "you have to go OVER the top rope AND your feet have to touch the ground in the same motion for it to count!" rules of the match. Go through the middle rope or slide underneath the bottom and you can walk around and take a breather for all we care. Go over the top rope but land on any object that ISN'T the mat (including *sigh* pancakes?), doesn't count!
Now, the latter part of my point is less important than the former. Of all the time that Sasha was "in the women's Royal Rumble," how much of that time was her sliding underneath the ropes and onto the outside? Or Rusev for that matter? It feels the vast majority of matches prior to these all had several guys in the ring most of the time, with no real "slowdown periods" of few guys in the ring. While it may make for space for bigger spots (or surprise returns for those guys who don't technically eliminate themselves), it still throws off the whole match under a technicality IMO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2018 12:38:50 GMT -5
I know that the use of going under the bottom ropes to take a breather and come back in later is something that needs to go ASAP. That was way overdone in the women's rumble. How many of those women have previous experience in working a match of that intensity? I think it was just a necessary thing to keep the standard of delivery as high as possible, they are not exposed to the same amount of conditioning as the guys, especially the greener superstars. In that case, those people shouldn't be booked to stay in the match that long.
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Post by CeilingFan on Jan 29, 2018 12:58:07 GMT -5
This stuck out a lot to me last night: while the Rumbles certainly weren't bad (a nice departure from the past few years), there was a lot of time when it didn't feel like much was happening; lots of time with wrestlers just lying on the mat or rolling outside the ring, or people clearing space away so a big spot could happen, stuff like that. I'm of the mind that really good Patterson-booked Rumbles had a few key components going for them: -New, different, and interesting combinations of guys getting to fight with one another, whether face vs. face, heel vs. heel, main eventers vs. lower card guy, etc. -The sheer spectacle of seeing so many wrestlers in the ring at one time. -A constant sense of kinetic energy with action going on at all times, allowing the match to seem longer and more grueling, thus making a win feel like survival. I guess "down time" might not be the right way to put this, but after seeing the past few Rumbles, which have ranged from disastrous (2015) to pretty good (last night, though your mileage may obviously vary), I feel like these post-Patterson Rumbles are missing a couple of the big components. The sight of a ton of people in the ring at once is still there, the matchups still have a few interesting combos even though matchups get burned through a lot more quickly than in the old days, but that last one didn't seem to click for me. Last night, for example, it felt too often that the people in the ring would clear space so that a new guy could come in and get a few spots in, or that some people would kind of fade away from the match and sort of be invisible; heck, in the women's Rumble there were long stretches where some of them just rolled out of the ring for 5-10 minutes and weren't seen or heard from until they popped up again out of nowhere, a spot that made sense for the Jax/Phoenix confrontation, but kept happening, anyway. Maybe it was the camera work, but it felt like a new guy or two would come in, and suddenly the other participants were on the mat or just invisible; the spot became the focus rather than the scope of the fight. Plus when a jobber/lower card guy entered you just knew they'd be in for about 2 minutes and be there to eat a "creative" elimination...not saying they shouldn't ever do that, and the Slater spots were pretty damn funny, but it did make what should be a really chaotic match feel a bit predictable during the middle portion. I guess what was missing was a sense that participants were spending the entire time fighting; that even if they were catching their breath, they were still in a corner throwing a few punches or body blows, or spending more time actively attempting to eliminate someone. Really stood out at the end of the men's one when it felt like Cena and Roman hit Finn and Nakamura once, then suddenly those two were down for five minutes...then they got up and hit Cena and Reigns once and suddenly THOSE two were down for five minutes. I'm not just going nuts here in my old age, am I? Again, not bashing the Rumbles as they were still pretty good, but just felt like those components weren't fully in place. Which was the last Rumble that Patterson booked?
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 29, 2018 13:34:15 GMT -5
I think one of the biggest issues with current era Rumble matches is that they lean HARD into the "you have to go OVER the top rope AND your feet have to touch the ground in the same motion for it to count!" rules of the match. Go through the middle rope or slide underneath the bottom and you can walk around and take a breather for all we care. Go over the top rope but land on any object that ISN'T the mat (including *sigh* pancakes?), doesn't count! Now, the latter part of my point is less important than the former. Of all the time that Sasha was "in the women's Royal Rumble," how much of that time was her sliding underneath the ropes and onto the outside? Or Rusev for that matter? It feels the vast majority of matches prior to these all had several guys in the ring most of the time, with no real "slowdown periods" of few guys in the ring. While it may make for space for bigger spots (or surprise returns for those guys who don't technically eliminate themselves), it still throws off the whole match under a technicality IMO. That's a point I forgot to bring up: I read that Balor was in the men's Rumble for something like 53 minutes, and my first reaction was "really?" By structuring the Rumbles in the current ways it kind of lessens the impact of guys who are in there for 20 minutes, 30, or more, since they're out of frame and "out of sight, out of mind" for a bit too much of it. I thought Punk did a decent job of coming across as having been brutalized when he made it to the final four in 2014 after being one of the first entrants, but it feels a bit less common. Sasha going from #1 to the final four also really lacked a lot of oomph, since getting to rest so much had her looking fresh by the end instead of like she had been through a war. Also, I can't say for sure what the last Patterson-booked Rumble was, I just know he retired from full time office work in WWE in 2004 (according to Wiki) and came back a year later in a limited "creative consultant" role.
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Post by CeilingFan on Jan 29, 2018 13:41:14 GMT -5
I think one of the biggest issues with current era Rumble matches is that they lean HARD into the "you have to go OVER the top rope AND your feet have to touch the ground in the same motion for it to count!" rules of the match. Go through the middle rope or slide underneath the bottom and you can walk around and take a breather for all we care. Go over the top rope but land on any object that ISN'T the mat (including *sigh* pancakes?), doesn't count! Now, the latter part of my point is less important than the former. Of all the time that Sasha was "in the women's Royal Rumble," how much of that time was her sliding underneath the ropes and onto the outside? Or Rusev for that matter? It feels the vast majority of matches prior to these all had several guys in the ring most of the time, with no real "slowdown periods" of few guys in the ring. While it may make for space for bigger spots (or surprise returns for those guys who don't technically eliminate themselves), it still throws off the whole match under a technicality IMO. That's a point I forgot to bring up: I read that Balor was in the men's Rumble for something like 53 minutes, and my first reaction was "really?" By structuring the Rumbles in the current ways it kind of lessens the impact of guys who are in there for 20 minutes, 30, or more, since they're out of frame and "out of sight, out of mind" for a bit too much of it. I thought Punk did a decent job of coming across as having been brutalized when he made it to the final four in 2014 after being one of the first entrants, but it feels a bit less common. Sasha going from #1 to the final four also really lacked a lot of oomph, since getting to rest so much had her looking fresh by the end instead of like she had been through a war. Also, I can't say for sure what the last Patterson-booked Rumble was, I just know he retired from full time office work in WWE in 2004 (according to Wiki) and came back a year later in a limited "creative consultant" role. The 2007 Rumble felt like it could've been booked by him. It was that damn good!
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Perfect Timing
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Perfect Timing on Jan 29, 2018 20:08:19 GMT -5
I thought Patterson did them up to 2009 since I noticed the Rumbles after that seem to lack something. As for last night, both Rumbles were probably better than anything post 2014. I was highly entertained and found most of the entrants to be treated with a decent amount of respect in regards to time spent in the ring. The Heath Slater thing was great because his Sheamus quick elimination wouldn't of had that same effect had he been in there earlier. It gave off a lot Maven/Taker vibes in a way. I agree that a lot of guys seem to kind of vanish or end up in the corners generic selling the match compared to 90's and early 00's Rumbles. I feel we used to get more moves in general back when Patterson booked things. That was always something that seperated Rumbles from generic Battle Royals.
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Post by crowley1986 on Jan 29, 2018 21:11:27 GMT -5
This stuck out a lot to me last night: while the Rumbles certainly weren't bad (a nice departure from the past few years), there was a lot of time when it didn't feel like much was happening; lots of time with wrestlers just lying on the mat or rolling outside the ring, or people clearing space away so a big spot could happen, stuff like that. I'm of the mind that really good Patterson-booked Rumbles had a few key components going for them: -New, different, and interesting combinations of guys getting to fight with one another, whether face vs. face, heel vs. heel, main eventers vs. lower card guy, etc. -The sheer spectacle of seeing so many wrestlers in the ring at one time. -A constant sense of kinetic energy with action going on at all times, allowing the match to seem longer and more grueling, thus making a win feel like survival. I guess "down time" might not be the right way to put this, but after seeing the past few Rumbles, which have ranged from disastrous (2015) to pretty good (last night, though your mileage may obviously vary), I feel like these post-Patterson Rumbles are missing a couple of the big components. The sight of a ton of people in the ring at once is still there, the matchups still have a few interesting combos even though matchups get burned through a lot more quickly than in the old days, but that last one didn't seem to click for me. Last night, for example, it felt too often that the people in the ring would clear space so that a new guy could come in and get a few spots in, or that some people would kind of fade away from the match and sort of be invisible; heck, in the women's Rumble there were long stretches where some of them just rolled out of the ring for 5-10 minutes and weren't seen or heard from until they popped up again out of nowhere, a spot that made sense for the Jax/Phoenix confrontation, but kept happening, anyway. Maybe it was the camera work, but it felt like a new guy or two would come in, and suddenly the other participants were on the mat or just invisible; the spot became the focus rather than the scope of the fight. Plus when a jobber/lower card guy entered you just knew they'd be in for about 2 minutes and be there to eat a "creative" elimination...not saying they shouldn't ever do that, and the Slater spots were pretty damn funny, but it did make what should be a really chaotic match feel a bit predictable during the middle portion. I guess what was missing was a sense that participants were spending the entire time fighting; that even if they were catching their breath, they were still in a corner throwing a few punches or body blows, or spending more time actively attempting to eliminate someone. Really stood out at the end of the men's one when it felt like Cena and Roman hit Finn and Nakamura once, then suddenly those two were down for five minutes...then they got up and hit Cena and Reigns once and suddenly THOSE two were down for five minutes. I'm not just going nuts here in my old age, am I? Again, not bashing the Rumbles as they were still pretty good, but just felt like those components weren't fully in place. Which was the last Rumble that Patterson booked? according to his wiki he retired in 05, but acts as a part time consultant...ive noticed they've gone down in quality since then (bar one or two exeptions - 08 and 07)
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 29, 2018 21:15:14 GMT -5
A factor that's really big in it now is that there's a definite expectation now that people go harder than they ever did before. There's an expectation people will still deliver in a match like this, especially someone in an iron man role who's got to perform at multiple points in a big way. Downtime becomes a must if you want to keep that going, the bigger issue is more that you need to make sure that the match flows well to where ideally it doesn't hurt the match and it feels like it fits.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jan 29, 2018 21:17:39 GMT -5
Feels like there used to be a lot more fun spots in rumbles not like huge spot-spots just...interactions and sequences.
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Jan 29, 2018 23:37:46 GMT -5
Patterson really knew how to make 30 men go at it.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,575
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Post by Bo Rida on Jan 30, 2018 2:33:49 GMT -5
It goes beyond the rumbles, it effects lots of multi-man matches, especially MitB.
Last night didn't matter too much, rule of cool I guess but when they give you time to think "what happened to ___" and there's no good answer you start to see the cracks.
Of course Dunn struggles to keep focus on one thing happening, he couldn't cope with multiple points of interest.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 30, 2018 6:36:51 GMT -5
A factor that's really big in it now is that there's a definite expectation now that people go harder than they ever did before. There's an expectation people will still deliver in a match like this, especially someone in an iron man role who's got to perform at multiple points in a big way. Downtime becomes a must if you want to keep that going, the bigger issue is more that you need to make sure that the match flows well to where ideally it doesn't hurt the match and it feels like it fits. It's certainly true that they seem to do bigger spots now in the Rumble than before; seemingly everyone gets to come in and hit some signature offense before being in position for a big spot, and I do imagine that takes some additional energy. Still, I guess it's a mentality thing: the current model seems built more on the idea of "everyone, get your shit in" rather than making the match itself feel more intense, which strikes me as a bit odd since we live in an era where wrestlers get to do their signature offense almost every single week on free TV.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 30, 2018 7:20:30 GMT -5
A factor that's really big in it now is that there's a definite expectation now that people go harder than they ever did before. There's an expectation people will still deliver in a match like this, especially someone in an iron man role who's got to perform at multiple points in a big way. Downtime becomes a must if you want to keep that going, the bigger issue is more that you need to make sure that the match flows well to where ideally it doesn't hurt the match and it feels like it fits. It's certainly true that they seem to do bigger spots now in the Rumble than before; seemingly everyone gets to come in and hit some signature offense before being in position for a big spot, and I do imagine that takes some additional energy. Still, I guess it's a mentality thing: the current model seems built more on the idea of "everyone, get your shit in" rather than making the match itself feel more intense, which strikes me as a bit odd since we live in an era where wrestlers get to do their signature offense almost every single week on free TV. That's because "everyone, get your shit in" is all WWE really knows most of the time. Where you see deviations from that are only when the agents and/or creative take a hands-off approach in letting the wrestlers make the match, and the Rumble doesn't feel like it's something they take it easy on.
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Post by CeilingFan on Jan 30, 2018 15:40:22 GMT -5
Which was the last Rumble that Patterson booked? according to his wiki he retired in 05, but acts as a part time consultant...ive noticed they've gone down in quality since then (bar one or two exeptions - 08 and 07) Both the 2007 and 2018 Rumbles had epic endings!
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,301
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Post by Woo on Jan 30, 2018 23:52:34 GMT -5
Giving that until 2001 all rumbles featured barely any spots Is say no.
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