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Post by lookout on Mar 6, 2018 17:53:33 GMT -5
So if a person is innocent and a woman is lying about him and accusing him of something which could totally ruin his life, he looks like an asshole if makes a non lawyered up response? Yes. A lawyered-up, "official" response is the absolute best way not to come across as an asshole in a case like this. It admits no fault, yet is tactful enough to appear at least a reasonable human being who can demonstrate restraint and self-control, especially in a case of being accused of lacking said restraint and self-control. You may have the right to be livid, but you also have to acknowledge when an outburst like Coach's might not be a good look for you. Any accused in such a case needs to keep his head down and his mouth shut until it's sorted out. Let the lawyers do their jobs. Sorry but he doesn't at all look like an asshole for responding the way an innocent person would. In fact I'm pretty sure to the majority of people he looks far better than someone who gets permession first from a lawyer and speaks in lawyer talk. Fact is, The only person right now who looks like an asshole is a woman who is willing to destroy someone's career and life because he asked her what freaking music she likes and putting that on the same level as real sexual harrassers...which in turn makes a mockery of it all and making it harder for real victims to be believed.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 6, 2018 18:44:04 GMT -5
How would you know the majority of people feel the same way? Did you take a poll?
Feel free to speak for yourself or use anecdotal evidence about the company you keep, but talking on behalf of millions upon millions of people is a load.
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Post by romanstylesiii on Mar 6, 2018 19:57:26 GMT -5
Everyone seems to be calling BS on the woman's lawsuit, including other women at the network, one of which calls out ESPN all the time and has been suspended by the network multiple times.
Several people are calling her lawsuit an "attention grab".
Not saying it is, or is not, but lets see due process first. Also, there is no indication of criminal charges against Coach at all.
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Psychoblue
Don Corleone
WrestleCrap #1 Kona Crush mark (probably)
Posts: 1,664
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Post by Psychoblue on Mar 6, 2018 20:00:50 GMT -5
If Jamele is standing up for Coach, I'll believe her claim that the case is BS. She's not someone who will keep quiet for the sake of a paycheck.
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Tribe has spoken for 2024 Mets
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Post by fw91 on Mar 6, 2018 20:05:53 GMT -5
accuser must be a Reigns hater
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,725
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 6, 2018 20:31:09 GMT -5
Sorry but he doesn't at all look like an asshole for responding the way an innocent person would. In fact I'm pretty sure to the majority of people he looks far better than someone who gets permession first from a lawyer and speaks in lawyer talk. Fact is, The only person right now who looks like an asshole is a woman who is willing to destroy someone's career and life because he asked her what freaking music she likes and putting that on the same level as real sexual harrassers...which in turn makes a mockery of it all and making it harder for real victims to be believed. Your opinion is not fact. My opinion is not necessarily fact, but it is based on my observations of similar cases that have occurred in the past and are continuing to play out as we discuss this. I don't think Coachman did himself any favours with those tweets. I don't believe that I'm alone in feeling this way, but majority sentiments to the contrary aren't necessarily right in the eyes of history, anyway. What is right is that allegations need to be investigated thoroughly to determine their merit. In the meantime, to ensure cooler heads prevail and fairness reigns, any public defense against the allegations must be measured and delivered in a manner that makes the accused a) appear plausible and sympathetic in their denials of the accusations, and b) appear empathetic to the plight of the accuser or to the issue in general. In the context of #metoo, that means not immediately calling the accuser a liar nor generalizing about such accusations as lies. It means sometimes having to check one's own behaviour and attitudes about sexual harassment and about women even when one is "100% innocent" of such allegations, and sometimes it means putting oneself into the headspace of an accuser to understand what the underlying issues are. If one cannot do that for whatever reason, the lawyered-up statement is probably the best option to take, if not the only one that might get things to calm down. That Enzo could do that, but Coachman couldn't, speaks volumes to me and probably to some others about where Coach's head is on this one.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 6, 2018 22:21:14 GMT -5
There is also an old saying adapted from Shakespeare's Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much." It's the idea that the more/more passionately a person protests it begins to look insincere and makes the person come off as dishonest, thus having the complete opposite effect intended. It's why lawyer speak is the usual way to go for denials. Yes, the instinct is to be angry and I'm sure I'd be pissed off if something like this happened to me and I was completely innocent of any wrongdoing. But an angry, indignant reaction often makes you look bad and it's best to keep a cool head.
I'm not assuming Coach did anything, but that sort of thing doesn't help at all.
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Post by ben:friendship frog on Mar 7, 2018 2:55:52 GMT -5
Hi, young woman from an office work place here to give Coach a PR lesson: No matter how innocent you are, attacking the accuser just makes you look like an asshole. "I categorically deny all allegations against me and will defend myself against them in court if it comes to it" is fine. Freaking Enzo was better at this. Enzo. So if a person is innocent and a woman is lying about him and accusing him of something which could totally ruin his life, he looks like an asshole if makes a non lawyered up response? Um no...not to me and I would wager not to most people. In fact, giving such a tame and predictable response gives the impression that maybe there is something to it to me because I know if someone falsely accused me of something I'd be livid too. Unfortunately, yes. I recently went through something I'm not going to divulge in detail, but it took 3 months to sort, all the while rumours and gossip were going around people I've known for decades. I wasn't allowed to say a word because I automatically look like an asshole and it makes things worse. So you suffer in silence. I had some very VERY dark days during that time. Anyway, correct procedures were followed and it was less being found 'not guilty' and more so there not being a story to begin with. The damage is done though, that same gossip circle doesn't keep talking and tell everyone it was all bullshit. Reputations, friendships etc all ruined. I truly feel sorry for anyone who has been sexually harassed or assaulted. My own mother was a victim of the latter many years ago. But something has to be done where the accused remain anonymous or something (until found guilty at least) because it is ruining lives and being found innocent is far too late.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Mar 7, 2018 4:14:04 GMT -5
Everyone bringing up the, "He only asked about interests!" thing seems to be ignoring this part - That, along with the fact that if he seriously wanted to mentor them, her having a boyfriend wouldn't have mattered. If he just wanted to "mentor" to get an in with them, then he wanted to leverage his senior position to get laid. That's... sketchy as f***, to put it plainly. I don't know if that's really sketchy brudda. No i don't think it is. Manoeuvring yourself in order to get closer to someone, and then withdrawing once you know they are not interested happens all the time. I remember when I used to visit a library out of my way because I used to talk with the librarian, and I thought there might be a spark there. Then when she went out with someone else, I went a couple more times, but stopped attending because....what was the point? Is that considered stalking in this day and age? You can make it sound evil by mentioning "ulterior motives" and "creepy harassment" but no inappropriate advances were made. Maybe I'm the outdated one. If all coach wanted was to use the woman up and get his leg over, then while I disagree with it morally, I feel like you're saying he was manipulating her into a position where she couldn't refuse a senior employee. That's a little different than plain consensual sex. There is also an old saying adapted from Shakespeare's Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much." It's the idea that the more/more passionately a person protests it begins to look insincere and makes the person come off as dishonest, thus having the complete opposite effect intended. It's why lawyer speak is the usual way to go for denials. Yes, the instinct is to be angry and I'm sure I'd be pissed off if something like this happened to me and I was completely innocent of any wrongdoing. But an angry, indignant reaction often makes you look bad and it's best to keep a cool head. I'm not assuming Coach did anything, but that sort of thing doesn't help at all. Complete silence is not helpful either, simpky saying "i neither confirm nor deny, speak to my lawyers" in an effort to remain neutral and calm doesn't work, and Coach doesn't even attack the woman personally. We're talking about seemingly damaging 'proof' here. If the photos and texts really show harassment, he will look 10x worse, but that's ONLY if he is really exposed. He has a right to be angry against untruths, and these are accusations threatening to damage his whole life. I think sitting on our boxes and saying "hmm y so mad" or "theres no smoke without fire bub" based on those tweets is a little uncalled for. If he did it, then I suppose your armchair psychology is a lot stronger and maybe you'll say " I KNEW he did it, look at the way he protested, no innocent man would react that way" I'll have to eat humble pie. Maybe it's only because i have been accused of things before and I reacted similiar and when 100% proof was released freeing me from the accusations, people seemed genuinely annoyed that there was no story, annoyed that I wasn't guilty and there was no doubt, rather than happy with me, or even angry towards the accuser.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,081
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 7, 2018 4:44:45 GMT -5
That, along with the fact that if he seriously wanted to mentor them, her having a boyfriend wouldn't have mattered. If he just wanted to "mentor" to get an in with them, then he wanted to leverage his senior position to get laid. That's... sketchy as f***, to put it plainly. I don't know if that's really sketchy brudda. No i don't think it is. Manoeuvring yourself in order to get closer to someone, and then withdrawing once you know they are not interested happens all the time. I remember when I used to visit a library out of my way because I used to talk with the librarian, and I thought there might be a spark there. Then when she went out with someone else, I went a couple more times, but stopped attending because....what was the point? Is that considered stalking in this day and age? You can make it sound evil by mentioning "ulterior motives" and "creepy harassment" but no inappropriate advances were made. Maybe I'm the outdated one. If all coach wanted was to use the woman up and get his leg over, then while I disagree with it morally, I feel like you're saying he was manipulating her into a position where she couldn't refuse a senior employee. That's a little different than plain consensual sex. There is also an old saying adapted from Shakespeare's Hamlet: "The lady doth protest too much." It's the idea that the more/more passionately a person protests it begins to look insincere and makes the person come off as dishonest, thus having the complete opposite effect intended. It's why lawyer speak is the usual way to go for denials. Yes, the instinct is to be angry and I'm sure I'd be pissed off if something like this happened to me and I was completely innocent of any wrongdoing. But an angry, indignant reaction often makes you look bad and it's best to keep a cool head. I'm not assuming Coach did anything, but that sort of thing doesn't help at all. Complete silence is not helpful either, simpky saying "i neither confirm nor deny, speak to my lawyers" in an effort to remain neutral and calm doesn't work, and Coach doesn't even attack the woman personally. We're talking about seemingly damaging 'proof' here. If the photos and texts really show harassment, he will look 10x worse, but that's ONLY if he is really exposed. He has a right to be angry against untruths, and these are accusations threatening to damage his whole life. I think sitting on our boxes and saying "hmm y so mad" or "theres no smoke without fire bub" based on those tweets is a little uncalled for. If he did it, then I suppose your armchair psychology is a lot stronger and maybe you'll say " I KNEW he did it, look at the way he protested, no innocent man would react that way" I'll have to eat humble pie. Maybe it's only because i have been accused of things before and I reacted similiar and when 100% proof was released freeing me from the accusations, people seemed genuinely annoyed that there was no story, annoyed that I wasn't guilty and there was no doubt, rather than happy with me, or even angry towards the accuser. Assuming this is true, which personally I have doubts about. This is way different to your library example. This wasn't just finding excuses to hang around her then stopping once he knew the situation. He put himself forward to mentor her, creating a power dynamic where he has influence over her. Lots of companies have mentors and they're useful, then once he just goes "well f*** helping you out then" and leaves her high and dry. If his sole intention wasn't to get into a position where he could influence her, why did he just cut it off? If it was me, I'd go "that's cool, I was just asking" then continue helping them out. That is sexual harassment. He's basically being this guy (language warning) Hopefully this isn't true and he can come back.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
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Post by segaz on Mar 7, 2018 4:58:08 GMT -5
Yeah I can see what you're saying. I admit, if an older woman asked to mentor me, and dropped me like that the minute i mentioned i was married, I would think it was dodgy, but more because of the 'you're just trying to get into my pants under the pretence of helping me" rather than "you're trying to have power over me and influence me into a position where I can't turn you down for sex"
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Post by celtics543 on Mar 7, 2018 14:01:17 GMT -5
I'd like some more information here, as I think we all would, before taking a side but I will say that as for the first text where they said Coach offered mentorship and then pulled that back when he found out she was dating someone could be explained. We don't know how he was told. Maybe he asked about musical interests or even openly asked if she was dating someone and she said she was and that she wasn't comfortable being mentored by him anymore so he never texted again. That's a pretty simple and, to me, obvious explanation for why the mentorship didn't work out and doesn't make him sleazy at all. Or maybe Coach is a sleazeball and was trying to leverage his position, we don't know.
After seeing that other things said in the lawsuit were false I am going to doubt this is true either. The Buccigross stuff happened and a huge company backed him and then the Jemele Hill and Chris Berman stuff was refuted by Hill, who pulls no punches with anything so I believe her. It's not open and shut right now so I see no reason Coach would be fired from WWE. He's not even being sued, he's just mentioned in the lawsuit.
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Post by Cyno on Mar 7, 2018 14:09:38 GMT -5
Under the assumption this is true, the power dynamics would be at work though as Coach, while not her boss, would still have some leverage as a more experienced and senior employee than her. He would also be doing it under entirely false pretenses, which is sleazy as hell.
Not going on a Twitter rant also doesn't necessarily mean needing to be entirely neutral or being silent. That's a strawman. You can deny without acting so angry and indignant. It's public relations 101.
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Post by Back to being Cenanuff on Mar 7, 2018 15:07:52 GMT -5
Here's why I'm saying you can't definitively wave a sexual harassment flag here. Mentoring someone requires you to get to know the person. Asking about musical tastes is pretty innocuous. If someone responded to me the way she did by telling me she had a boyfriend, I'd back off too, because everything I would do as a mentor would be seen through a lens of me trying to get in her pants, whether or not it was true. I'm sure Coach saw more than his share of sexual harassment during his first WWE run. If anything, it would have taught him how to avoid these situations. Me, I don't even like riding an elevator alone with a woman. Way too easy for something to bee misconstrued, and we live in an age where her word is believed over mine.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 7, 2018 15:58:52 GMT -5
I'm in the "I'll wait for more" camp too, but some of you do know there's more to the report than him asking her music preferences, right? That's like...10% of the claim. Whatever your feelings, you'd look a lot more partial if you weren't just zeroing in on that one sentence.
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Post by thetower52 on Mar 7, 2018 17:29:59 GMT -5
Has he been suspended yet? Isn’t that there go to tell everything’s cleared up?
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Post by Mayonnaise on Mar 7, 2018 17:45:43 GMT -5
Has he been suspended yet? Isn’t that there go to tell everything’s cleared up? Usually just for criminal issues, this would be civil and he's not even the target.
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Post by Starshine on Mar 7, 2018 18:24:30 GMT -5
Me, I don't even like riding an elevator alone with a woman. Way too easy for something to bee misconstrued, and we live in an age where her word is believed over mine. Wait, what? What are you doing in elevators?
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,950
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Mar 7, 2018 18:36:49 GMT -5
Me, I don't even like riding an elevator alone with a woman. Way too easy for something to bee misconstrued, and we live in an age where her word is believed over mine. Wait, what? What are you doing in elevators? I ride the elevator nude and I always will. Let fools get their loose clothing caught in the door.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,306
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Post by Woo on Mar 7, 2018 19:08:00 GMT -5
Some of these "You can't even talk a woman these days" posts are pathetic. Of course you can. If you've done nothing wrong then you have nothing to worry about.
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