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Post by Rocky Raccoon on Aug 22, 2018 13:50:59 GMT -5
Wasnt New Day able to get over naturally? Yes and no; they were given a gimmick Vince really wanted and nobody else did, the crowd rejected them so hard that they were kind of given up on for a while, but then they started clowning around and being themselves in some web-only stuff that had no scripts. That started to bleed over into something entertaining enough to get them over and start a push again and now they're where they are, but ultimately it's the same core idea: Vince wanted to push the act, and just kind of kept rolling with it again once they got over salvaging the gimmick into something palatable. Someone who they want to be over is never going to be punished for getting over; it's the people who outshine their chosen ones or who they don't have anything in mind for who will get punished for it. I want to find the exact quote and I beliiieve it was from a Jericho podcast, but Kofi also had talked to Vince in advance about gradually becoming obnoxious heels if fans didn't take to their initial babyface push.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 14:16:11 GMT -5
Here is a question since we have talked about Damien Sandow.
Would Zack Ryder found success in the indies if he would have left WWE a couple years ago? No doubt he has a fanbase but something tells me he wouldn't have been as successful.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Aug 22, 2018 15:19:04 GMT -5
When they want someone to get over, they do all they can to protect them and hide their flaws as workers, they give them mouthpieces, they put them on pre-taped shows so they can use editing magic, they put them in tag teams so more able talent can cover for them until they overcome their shortcomings. With Zac Ryder, they put him out there and exposed all his shortcomings for all the world to see while booking him into the ground, the kind of booking they would usually save for someone who had failed wellness, they used low ratings for his segments to justify it after the fact. TV audiences weren't going to tune in to see a guy who hadn't ever really had anny sort of serious push on TV being booked to look like a second rate whiny loser, shocking, I know.
Was Ryder world title material? Hell no. Should he have been given a main event push? Absolutely not. Nobody thought that, nobody wanted that. What they wanted was for the guy to get a decent midcard push, that's his ceiling as a performer and there's nothing wrong with that, what we got was the guy exposed and humiliated on TV, coming out the other end of the spiteful 'push' they gave him considerably worse off than he was beforehand.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Aug 22, 2018 15:44:12 GMT -5
Cesaro got mega over on pure wrestling rather than promos, so naturally WWE first have Heyman talk about Lesnar whenever Cesaro is around to take the attention off him, then have Cesaro cut an unscripted promo- something he is not good at. Harper was getting great reactions last year as a title challenger, so obviously loses and gets stuck in the Tall LARPers team. Drew Gulak was getting over on 205 Live and his brief Raw spots as the comedy heel hinting at a face turn...so they double down on him being heel, make him AGGRESSIVE and stop putting him on Raw. Cody Rhodes was getting over big with the Brotherhood team/angle, so he's turned into Stardust for a f***ing eternity and does nothing of importance. Breezango are getting over as the popular comedy face team with shades of E&C, so naturally they job them to oblivion then move them to Raw to do literally nothing. Ziggler WAS over, but has been so thoroughly wrecked since that it feels like it never happened and he's always sucked. Ditto Ryback. He could have been a midcarder who can alternate between comedy and a credible midcard contender. He could have been where R-Truth or Goldust were at around that time, basically. Just because he couldn't be a Mania main eventer and wasn't on the calibre of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, two of the most all-round talented and organically over performers WWE have had since the end of the Attitude Era, doesn't mean he couldn't have been a solid part of the show. It's a full card, not just the main event, but WWE has cultivated the mentality that if it's not main event it doesn't matter, and even moreso that if it's not a match with whoever WWE wants on top, it doesn't matter. Even if a dude has a ceiling, or a shelf-life, you maximise both while you can. It's basic common sense. Ryder was and is higher on the totem pole than R Truth and Goldust. I didn’t say anything about him being a main eventer. Did you read he post you quoted. You could really see Zach Ryder with his “woo woo you know it” stuff being a credible Midcard feud to Balor or Seth Rollins? That stuff was funny on The internet and has probably kept him employed because the crowds are always happy to see them, but it doesn’t translate to a wrestling show and serious storylines. And he doesn’t have the chops to move passed it, he has demonstrated that a lot. R-Truth at the time was dipping his feet in bigger storylines like the Miz and Cena stuff, and getting tag and midcard title runs/shots. Goldust likewise with the Brotherhood stuff. As for Ryder's credibility- firstly I don't think Rollins should be a midcarder but that's another matter- Edge and Christian used to play kazoos all the time, dress like utter goofs and generally clown it up, but still were always credible in singles action to the point Edge won King of the Ring. In wrestling unless there's a vast, vast size/athleticism disparity, credibility is generally what you make of it. Ryder's a decent size, decent athlete, and decent look, everything needed to be a solid midcard hand, and again- if someone's over you respond to it. And when Ryder did do that brief run of dropping the nonsense, getting focused and going for the IC title, fans reacted to him once again. Hell go back further to ECW, Ryder's ringwork was actually garnering him some solid praise, he's definitely in the lower tier of workers but that's because WWE's roster is stacked ring-wise atm. You need guys who serve as steady midcarders, and there is no reason Ryder couldn't have been that- he lacks the ringwork or promo ability to be anything more, but again this is a product of "if it isn't main event it doesn't matter" which sees guys like Rollins or Ambrose or Zayn or Owens spending a whole lot of time trying to find something to keep them busy, guys like Miz who in another era would have been a main eventer kind of plateau'd, guys like Kofi or Big E who could be main eventers not finding room to move up because the roster's too stacked, or guys like Ziggler and probably Nakamura who are stalled on until they miss the boat. I know you didn't mention Ryder being a main eventer but you did explicitly compare how he looked next to Punk & Bryan, which again is totally missing the point that he was never, ever going to be at that level and that wasn't what anyone expected. They just thought if you've got an over, charismatic guy who is decent enough in-ring you may as well make the most of him. Thanks for your consideration about my reading comprehension though.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Aug 22, 2018 16:03:20 GMT -5
Is there any other company in the world that shoves their most popular stuff to the side to promote their other less popular products? I can't think of any other successful company that operates like that. Marvel is guilty of this. They're turning it around now, but a few years ago they shelved the Fantastic Four and seriously downgraded the X-Men out of pure spite, while trying to give The Inhumans a Roman Reigns push.
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Post by trollrogue on Aug 22, 2018 16:33:53 GMT -5
All it does is turn you into job bait for WWE to get heat with at your personal expense. You could've also just put up 4 pictures of all the different gimmicks Cesaro has had which all got over. His tag team with Tyson Kidd where he arguably made Nattie into a great (farting) comedy face/heel in addition to giving Kidd his greatest run in NXT and on WWE main while working together. His tag team with Oklahomie/Jack Swagger, which again, the best thing Swagger ever got to do in WWE and he and Cesaro were arguably the two most over anti-heroes on the roster before they had Swagger and Zeb Coulter turn on Cesaro. His several month-long run where he kept challenging the likes of Cena and Reigns and other main eventers and came close several times to beating them and 'grabbing the brass ring' but the bookers wouldn't allow him to have a clean victory ever, despite the crowd popping for the Cesaro Swing and the Uppercut Train every week. The Bar, where even up against the most charismatic trio in all of WWE (The New Day) and WITH the least charismatic partner in all of WWE (Mr. "You Look Stupid"/Sheamus) The Bar gets a standing ovation and half-and-half crowd split support in the #1 Tag Team Titles Contender's match on SDLive before Summerslam '18. Another way to look at it, putting Sheamus with Cesaro in a tag team worked out better than putting Sheamus in a faction with 3 other former midcard champs (and 1 other world champ in Alberto Del Rio) with the Eurotrash Lads due to Cesaro, the X Factor. Anybody can work with Cesaro, which is why he can never be a main event champion because he needs to work with anybody not just the big-time guys. I think getting over naturally will keep you away from the main event but only because like a Dolph Ziggler or a Miz you don't really need to have a world title to get the crowd invested in your storyline and feuds. It looks to the viewer like Cesaro has been punished for getting himself over (or being 'too Swiss') but in actuality his revolving door of tag team gimmicks is a great example of the job security he and people like Zack Ryder enjoy after they got themselves over. Zack and Rusev will never get fired, and Wade Barrett got himself over as Bad News Barrett and just didn't like the direction he was going and asked for his release-- he would've been doing the King Barrett gimmick for years past his KOTR victory otherwise which again isn't really them 'holding down' Barrett more than them 'holding onto' his charisma while giving the stage props (i.e. a title belt) to the charisma-less people like Roman Reigns who actually need it.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Aug 22, 2018 16:35:12 GMT -5
Is there any other company in the world that shoves their most popular stuff to the side to promote their other less popular products? I can't think of any other successful company that operates like that. Marvel is guilty of this. They're turning it around now, but a few years ago they shelved the Fantastic Four and seriously downgraded the X-Men out of pure spite, while trying to give The Inhumans a Roman Reigns push. People say that but even at peak inhumans the x books still out numbered them by like 20 books The only real difference was that new characters were made inhumans instead of mutants...
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Post by abjordans on Aug 22, 2018 16:49:09 GMT -5
Ryder was and is higher on the totem pole than R Truth and Goldust. I didn’t say anything about him being a main eventer. Did you read he post you quoted. You could really see Zach Ryder with his “woo woo you know it” stuff being a credible Midcard feud to Balor or Seth Rollins? That stuff was funny on The internet and has probably kept him employed because the crowds are always happy to see them, but it doesn’t translate to a wrestling show and serious storylines. And he doesn’t have the chops to move passed it, he has demonstrated that a lot. R-Truth at the time was dipping his feet in bigger storylines like the Miz and Cena stuff, and getting tag and midcard title runs/shots. Goldust likewise with the Brotherhood stuff. As for Ryder's credibility- firstly I don't think Rollins should be a midcarder but that's another matter- Edge and Christian used to play kazoos all the time, dress like utter goofs and generally clown it up, but still were always credible in singles action to the point Edge won King of the Ring. In wrestling unless there's a vast, vast size/athleticism disparity, credibility is generally what you make of it. Ryder's a decent size, decent athlete, and decent look, everything needed to be a solid midcard hand, and again- if someone's over you respond to it. And when Ryder did do that brief run of dropping the nonsense, getting focused and going for the IC title, fans reacted to him once again. Hell go back further to ECW, Ryder's ringwork was actually garnering him some solid praise, he's definitely in the lower tier of workers but that's because WWE's roster is stacked ring-wise atm. You need guys who serve as steady midcarders, and there is no reason Ryder couldn't have been that- he lacks the ringwork or promo ability to be anything more, but again this is a product of "if it isn't main event it doesn't matter" which sees guys like Rollins or Ambrose or Zayn or Owens spending a whole lot of time trying to find something to keep them busy, guys like Miz who in another era would have been a main eventer kind of plateau'd, guys like Kofi or Big E who could be main eventers not finding room to move up because the roster's too stacked, or guys like Ziggler and probably Nakamura who are stalled on until they miss the boat. I know you didn't mention Ryder being a main eventer but you did explicitly compare how he looked next to Punk & Bryan, which again is totally missing the point that he was never, ever going to be at that level and that wasn't what anyone expected. They just thought if you've got an over, charismatic guy who is decent enough in-ring you may as well make the most of him. Thanks for your consideration about my reading comprehension though. Edge and Christian EVOLVED from the kazoo days. Ryder hasn’t changed it up at all. That’s the whole point. He got over, but not for anything at all he did on a wrestling show, and there was no way to translate it back to the show. That was his problem. And he is still doing the same schtick he did in 2011 to this day. And saying he looked like a geek next to Bryan and Punk isn’t saying I expect him to be at their level, but he should at least not stick out like a sore thumb in a “one of these guys doesn’t belong” way. I am not saying I expect him to be a main eventer, but he should not look like a complete after thought standing next to your top guys. I don’t think we lost anything by not getting a sustained Zach Ryder push. He got his US title run, he is his IC title moment at Mani and has done some other stuff and had some good matches, but WWE didn’t lose out on a big opportunity by not doing more with him. Even at the sustained mod cars level. Dude is enhancement talent, that is his skill level and what he can do.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Aug 22, 2018 16:50:58 GMT -5
Is there any other company in the world that shoves their most popular stuff to the side to promote their other less popular products? I can't think of any other successful company that operates like that. Marvel is guilty of this. They're turning it around now, but a few years ago they shelved the Fantastic Four and seriously downgraded the X-Men out of pure spite, while trying to give The Inhumans a Roman Reigns push. Don't forget about the f***ing INFINITY that was the Red Hulk superpush. How long did it take to fix him?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2018 21:02:39 GMT -5
Cesaro is one that really makes me mad because the guy can flat out wrestle and the crowd loves to cheer him
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Post by Savage Gambino on Aug 24, 2018 12:25:08 GMT -5
After Damien Sandow killed his own career and had to retire, I stopped blaming the wwe for not pushing my favorites, maybe there are reasons why they don’t deserve to be pushed. Agreed. I think creative has certainly dropped the ball with some people, this idea that they're a bunch of cackling meanies who like to make us sad is kinda out of hand. I think there's a lot of middle ground, but it does lean in the direction of the talent as opposed to the brass. The law of averages says for every Superstar given the ball, some of them can run with it and some of them can't. It's not a huge gamble to bet that a guy like Ryder who got over on a heavily-scripted, heavily-edited platform like YouTube might not be able to run with the ball on a live show. Still, for every Damien Sandow and Ken Anderson that feels like a bullet dodged with the benefit of hindsight, there's just so many cases where they just burned money that it's still hard to side with the brass. And that's without mentioning the guys who fail even with the full weight of the company behind them, that they continue to push regardless.
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Mecca
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Post by Mecca on Aug 24, 2018 12:51:43 GMT -5
Here's the issue I have with a lot of this. Zack Ryder is being brought up repeatedly in this argument and one of the first lines I see of people saying "he got what he deserved" is that he wasn't a main event level talent. Guess what, everyone knows that. The problem the WWE has today is exactly that right there. When I was younger and watching the WWE, even the mid/low card wrestlers had acts and a lot of them were entertaining. That doesn't mean they deserve to wrestle in the mainevent, no one was sitting around proclaiming that Scotty 2 Hotty should mainevent Wrestlemania that but gimmick popped the crowd, they were good for an opener or to throw into a feud here and there. Zack Ryder is perfect for a role like that but guess what this attitude that has been cultivated is that only the mainevent matters. Which is why we now have 5 hours of first run TV every week that are boring as all f***.
Even if Damien Sandow wasn't a talented wrestler and was mainly over because of a gimmick he was given, who cares? A midcard dude that fans pop for has value and should be treated that way. Not every wrestler has to be a maineventer to have value. Guess what the Godfather was not a maineventer not was Val Venis or Too Cool etc etc etc, but guess what all of those gimmicks were entertaining and helped make fans enjoy entire shows not just a few minutes of them.
They had the biggest f***ing star in the world in Steve Austin yet still found time to use the rest of their roster with 2 hours a week...now with 5 hours a week they can't find time to really get anyone over because they are lazy and don't want to. The WWE is a product that is catered to an out of touch 72 year old man who gives f*** all what the fans want, matter of fact they don't even like the fans.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Aug 24, 2018 13:04:32 GMT -5
Rusev main evented Smackdown every week for like 3 months
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Post by Dub H on Aug 24, 2018 13:09:04 GMT -5
Here's the issue I have with a lot of this. Zack Ryder is being brought up repeatedly in this argument and one of the first lines I see of people saying "he got what he deserved" is that he wasn't a main event level talent. Guess what, everyone knows that. The problem the WWE has today is exactly that right there. When I was younger and watching the WWE, even the mid/low card wrestlers had acts and a lot of them were entertaining. That doesn't mean they deserve to wrestle in the mainevent, no one was sitting around proclaiming that Scotty 2 Hotty should mainevent Wrestlemania that but gimmick popped the crowd, they were good for an opener or to throw into a feud here and there. Zack Ryder is perfect for a role like that but guess what this attitude that has been cultivated is that only the mainevent matters. Which is why we now have 5 hours of first run TV every week that are boring as all f***. Even if Damien Sandow wasn't a talented wrestler and was mainly over because of a gimmick he was given, who cares? A midcard dude that fans pop for has value and should be treated that way. Not every wrestler has to be a maineventer to have value. Guess what the Godfather was not a maineventer not was Val Venis or Too Cool etc etc etc, but guess what all of those gimmicks were entertaining and helped make fans enjoy entire shows not just a few minutes of them. They had the biggest f***ing star in the world in Steve Austin yet still found time to use the rest of their roster with 2 hours a week...now with 5 hours a week they can't find time to really get anyone over because they are lazy and don't want to. The WWE is a product that is catered to an out of touch 72 year old man who gives f*** all what the fans want, matter of fact they don't even like the fans. My biggest issue about Sandow is that.Did the guy do awfully after WWE?Yes , was his ideas awful?Also yes. But he still was a great Gimmick Wrestler, he could pick a decent gimmick and make it really fun (The Liberace thing was jsut an awful idea and serious no gimmick Sandow is not his strong suit).He could have had a place in WWE
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Mecca
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Post by Mecca on Aug 24, 2018 13:12:36 GMT -5
Here's the issue I have with a lot of this. Zack Ryder is being brought up repeatedly in this argument and one of the first lines I see of people saying "he got what he deserved" is that he wasn't a main event level talent. Guess what, everyone knows that. The problem the WWE has today is exactly that right there. When I was younger and watching the WWE, even the mid/low card wrestlers had acts and a lot of them were entertaining. That doesn't mean they deserve to wrestle in the mainevent, no one was sitting around proclaiming that Scotty 2 Hotty should mainevent Wrestlemania that but gimmick popped the crowd, they were good for an opener or to throw into a feud here and there. Zack Ryder is perfect for a role like that but guess what this attitude that has been cultivated is that only the mainevent matters. Which is why we now have 5 hours of first run TV every week that are boring as all f***. Even if Damien Sandow wasn't a talented wrestler and was mainly over because of a gimmick he was given, who cares? A midcard dude that fans pop for has value and should be treated that way. Not every wrestler has to be a maineventer to have value. Guess what the Godfather was not a maineventer not was Val Venis or Too Cool etc etc etc, but guess what all of those gimmicks were entertaining and helped make fans enjoy entire shows not just a few minutes of them. They had the biggest f***ing star in the world in Steve Austin yet still found time to use the rest of their roster with 2 hours a week...now with 5 hours a week they can't find time to really get anyone over because they are lazy and don't want to. The WWE is a product that is catered to an out of touch 72 year old man who gives f*** all what the fans want, matter of fact they don't even like the fans. My biggest issue about Sandow is that.Did the guy do awfully after WWE?Yes , was his ideas awful?Also yes. But he still was a great Gimmick Wrestler, he could pick a decent gimmick and make it really fun (The Liberace thing was jsut an awful idea and serious no gimmick Sandow is not his strong suit).He could have had a place in WWE Exactly, even if the guy personally has stupid ideas, if he is passable enough to carry a gimmick that he is given that you can make some money with it why does it matter? Not everyone is going to have a great mind for the business or be a maineventer that does not mean they have no use or no value. The problem with the WWE is everyone is treated with these big brushes when guess what Damien Sandow may need to be given a character and have promos written for him, that's great you have people to do things like that. Meanwhile you have other talents who are creative that don't need that kind of help. Figure out who is who and do what you need to, to help everyone the best you can. They just don't have any desire to do that it seems.
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tms
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Post by tms on Aug 24, 2018 13:59:29 GMT -5
I thought Sandow was absolutely perfect with his Genius 2.0 gimmick. Nothing else needed.
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Post by Yacht Persona on Aug 24, 2018 16:36:59 GMT -5
Yeah, Zack Ryder isn't a main event talent, but neither is Roman Reigns.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Aug 24, 2018 20:05:31 GMT -5
I just don't understand what that company is thinking. I know they're swimming in money and don't have to try, but since they don't have to try, why not just hand the fans what they want? They've proven they'll watch all kinds of garbage! Millionaire who should be a billionaire
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 20:18:07 GMT -5
I just don't understand what that company is thinking. I know they're swimming in money and don't have to try, but since they don't have to try, why not just hand the fans what they want? They've proven they'll watch all kinds of garbage! Millionaire who should be a billionaire Whose back to being a billionaire.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 24, 2018 20:41:54 GMT -5
Millionaire who should be a billionaire Whose back to being a billionaire. The XFL will solve that
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