Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Oct 30, 2018 11:38:30 GMT -5
I'll grant you I didn't watch a whole lot of Fresh Prince, Shame on you. Wasting time with the god damn Simpsons when real enriching programming is RIGHT there! a bit dubious, given lines like this: Roses are red, violets are blue Jazz and I are black. Hey, Carlton...what are you?didn't have nothing to do with society. it was just "Hey, here's a dorky black guy who listens to Barry Manilow instead of Snoop Dogg and idolizes Macaulay Culkin (granted, anybody of any race who did the latter is probably mentally unstable). Laugh at him!" Whis there is a few jokes like that there was episode that usually focused more on him being rich and people believing he doesnt "act" black. There is a whole episode where Will's friends think Carlton is not black enough. And the biggest one for me is the one where Carlton has liven his whole life sheltered by riches,so when he is not protected by the status and money he is faced with racism. Talking about the episode where he is stoppe din the road because he was a black man riding an expensive car.It is not that he didnt act Black, but he was never in a position to suffer racism before. honestly when Princ eof Bel Air wanted to,they were the best written show of all time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 12:02:13 GMT -5
If you're influenced by pop culture to the point of thinking a cartoon character represents an entire country of people it's entirely on you/your upbringing. It's the same thought process behind blaming entertainment for real life violent acts. No, because that's conflating direct actions with innate biases, which are not the same thing nor driven by the same impulses. The issue at hand here isn't overt hatred of Indian people being caused by pop culture; subconscious stereotyping works on, well, a much less obvious level. Given that Apu was the only mainstream media exposure a lot of Americans got to a South Asian character for quite awhile, it meant that, like it or not, he was going to play a part in shaping or reaffirming those biases. Apu didn't cause American society to dislike Indian people; heck, he was often a pretty likable character, and I don't think anyone is arguing that the writers wanted to put forward a negative image of Indian people. What Apu might have done, though, is play into pre-existing stereotypes and affirm some of them, all while being played by a white actor putting on an Indian accent that doesn't much match the real thing. The key to all of this is that given the lack of other Indian people in positions of high standing in American culture when the Simpsons burst onto the scene and the relative lack of visibility of that community in much of America circa 1990, it gave the character a lot of extra influence over people's perception of Indian-Americans, even if there was no malice whatsoever in what they thought of them. For a lot of people, Apu was probably the only person of Indian descent that they "knew". You want to say "that's on you/your upbringing", I suppose to an extent it is, but people aren't often in control of whether or not they're raised around diverse communities. If someone looked at Apu and took him as an excuse to actively hate Indians, then yeah, that's on them, because God only knows what about the character would've made them think that, but that's not really what the whole thing's been about. Sure. But it's another kind of scapegoating, and it places an unfair and unreasonable responsibility on a cartoon program to educate the audience. The Simpson's aren't responsible for the lack of mainstream Indian representation when they hit the airwaves, nor the slow progress made in that regard during their run. Matt Groening wasn't blacklisting Indian people from Hollywood or politics. For all we know, the Apu character was created to add diversity to the program, and while it has been addressed in this thread, I think it is very, very important to stress that he hasn't been handled any differently than the rest of the over-the-top characters in the Simpsons universe. Sure they play around with (and subvert) stereotypes - That's their thing. But you don't have to live in a melting pot to understand that an exaggerated cartoon character existing in a very obviously satirical universe can't possibly be a stand-in for an entire culture. I've never met a native American in my life, yet I don't think they all own casinos or live in teepees. Playing into stereotypes for comedy can be funny; The onus is on human beings to know and understand that stereotypes aren't an all encompassing, accurate portrayal of a group of people. Apu showed up in the 1990's, not the 1690's, and even though he was the only visible Indian on television, there's no excuse for not knowing better.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Oct 30, 2018 12:51:40 GMT -5
Here’s the thing about determining what’s racist, offensive, etc: if you’re not part of that group or culture, then you don’t get to decide what’s problematic regarding things pertaining to it. A white person doesn’t have room to tell a minority that they shouldn’t find something bothersome just because they can’t relate as to why a stereotype is hurtful, just as I can’t or shouldn’t try to dictate what a gay person should be offended by. That's pretty much the whole problem with this debate from both sides. It was an issue brought up by people of South Asian descent and now it seems their voices have been minimised in favour of basically just a bunch of white people yelling at another group of white people about what is or isn't offensive to people of different racial backgrounds to them. On another note, a lot of the "Apu isn't racist" posts or the "What about [other character]" posts have been well deconstructed but there's a couple points on the other side of the coin I just want to address: Urkel and Carlton were depicted as annoying af. Apu is depicted as a guy with a Ph.D., a lovely family, and his own business. I WISH I was that "poorly represented." The Ph.d he never uses, the wife he didn't want, the eight kids crippling him financially, the family he's cheated on and attempted to leave, the job he's been shown working every hour he physically can, even having gone crazy after a marathon shift without sleep, a job he works well into his twilight years without ever advancing... I agree that Apu not advancing professionally isn't great (although it's The Simpsons, so pretty much no character ever does), but I think you're being harsh on the other aspects of Apu's life you've listed there. "The wife he didn't want" - well initially yes, but the episode was quite clear that actually he liked Manjula a lot once he got to know her better and they were happy together for several years. And if we're saying that they shouldn't address things such as arranged marriage because it comes across as stereotypical (I don't know if that's what anyone is saying tbh) then I think that's wrong. Apu is an Indian man, he comes from a different culture to America. It's not wrong to acknowledge that people have different cultures and experiences (this whole controversy is a testament to that), to write him EXACTLY the same as the white (er, yellow) characters would be wrong as it's completely inaccurate. "The eight kids crippling him financially" - I don't see how that's relevant really. I saw someone mention this as a stereotype of Indians having lots of kids? I think that's a big stretch, especially considering they had octuplets and not Manjula just spitting out a kid every 9 months. "The family he's cheated on and attempted to leave" - again, the episode depicting him cheating was very clear that it was a terrible mistake he made and he even completed a series of very difficult tasks to get Manjula back. As for him leaving, I believe that's been used as a throwaway joke but nothing more and they've shown Homer doing similar before too. If anything it's lazy writing but I don't think it's a fair reflection of the Apu character. "The job he's been shown working every hour he physically can, even having gone crazy after a marathon shift without sleep" - I don't see how that's a negative portrayal at all. He's easily the hardest working man in Springfield and a fantastic provider for his family. Apu isn't a perfect role model, he wouldn't be a very interesting character if he was. But he's generally as upstanding a citizen as anyone on The Simpsons. When he does wrong, he tries to atone for it. His many good points far outweigh his bad points IMO. I'll grant you I didn't watch a whole lot of Fresh Prince, but even that description sounds more like an awkward joke at societies treatment of black people, being played by a black actor. It's not mocking any particular race by the sounds of things, just kind of making light of a sore subject. If Carlton was a white actor donning blackface, it would be more comparible. People have even said they'd be okay with Apu if an Indian VA was playing him. Using The Big Bang Theory (again), no one has ever really complained about Rajesh being stereotypical because he is played by a South Asian actor. Except for one person from Slate who thought the accent was put on and they quickly got called out on it. Plus he's a well-rounded character. If Apu was treated more like Raj, I doubt anyone would complain. This is the second time in this thread that I've pointed out examples where The Big Bang Theory has been more socially aware and culturally relevant than The Simpsons. This would make teenage me very sad to see how far the Simpsons have fallen.
I can't agree with this whatsoever. While Raj actually being portrayed by an Indian actor clearly makes a huge difference (and from the outside the opposite seems to be a lot of people's biggest problem with Apu), I think he's had way worse character development. Apu started off as a one-note random Indian store clerk with 'funny voice' and became a beloved character with real thoughts and emotions, well-respected by everybody in Springfield. Raj began as a quiet polite guy who has trouble speaking to women but is actually quite well-liked by the opposite sex, with a lot of career potential (30 under 30 for example) and actually subverts a lot of the other characters expectation of him due to his Indian heritage (prefers American food, didn't grow up poor etc). Other than learning to talk with women, Raj has completely devolved IMO. He's now a pathetic whiny man-baby who relies on everybody else to do things for him, he's the least successful of his friends by far and romantically any potential love interest ends up hating him because he's a total creep. Even his friends seem to merely tolerate him rather than actively enjoy being in his company. As a character, a representation of Indians, just as a depiction of a grown man in general - I'd much rather be Apu.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 30, 2018 13:04:57 GMT -5
That's fair. I'm not going to say that Raj is exactly the best character, but I think it's important that his flaws are his flaws as a person, not because of stereotyping his ethnicity or background. And that's what I meant with Apu. If he was treated like Raj was where any character flaws he had were because of his own shortcomings as a person rather than falling back on tired stereotypes as well as played by an appropriate actor, I doubt there would be much blowback.
The sad thing is that the first part WAS Apu during the Golden Age where stereotypes were a minimal part of his characterization. I think the episode where he became a citizen is not only funny, but also touching. But that isn't the Apu we get anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 14:26:11 GMT -5
So, what would you do if you were in charge of the show? Besides ending it, that is. I feel like most of us would agree that they've handled this very poorly - especially by having LISA f***ING SIMPSON, of all people, basically throwing her hands up and going "that's SJW's for ya".
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Oct 30, 2018 14:36:47 GMT -5
Well, by all accounts this was a false rumor (and much apu about nothing) and the developers might still capitalize on the character and its controversy.
The two solutions are either get someone of Indian descent to voice Apu or get rid of the character entirely. And regardless which is picked, people will be angry.
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Post by Cyno on Oct 30, 2018 15:21:01 GMT -5
I think they should recast the role, especially as both Hank and Hari agree that it's the best way to go about it. Yeah, there will be hardcore people on both sides of the controversy that won't be happy about it, but it just seems to be the idea that has the most consensus support.
And if they can have a special guest actor (Marcia Wallace) play just one role for 20+ years, they can do it for Apu, too.
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Post by realist on Oct 30, 2018 20:52:41 GMT -5
That's fair. I'm not going to say that Raj is exactly the best character, but I think it's important that his flaws are his flaws as a person, not because of stereotyping his ethnicity or background. And that's what I meant with Apu. If he was treated like Raj was where any character flaws he had were because of his own shortcomings as a person rather than falling back on tired stereotypes as well as played by an appropriate actor, I doubt there would be much blowback. The sad thing is that the first part WAS Apu during the Golden Age where stereotypes were a minimal part of his characterization. I think the episode where he became a citizen is not only funny, but also touching. But that isn't the Apu we get anymore. See, this is where I was coming from when I made my original post, which I now see as insensitive. I was defending the character from the glory years. I had no idea that they had butchered the character like that, as well as others that I learned about in this thread.
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Post by Gravedigger's Biscuits on Nov 1, 2018 10:11:56 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2018 14:57:27 GMT -5
Carlton in the earlier episodes was definitely “white washed” as a character, but he was able to play off Will’s “West Philly” character for that reason. That was a big part of the show early on. I thought that was actually handled pretty well, with Carlton standing up for himself at certain points (“Will, I've never judged you, but you always act like you carry around some measure of blackness that I don't live up to”).
The greater point there, as mentioned here already, is it was black characters performed by black actors on a show created by a black man. Usually stereotyping in that environment is seen as ok. The issue is when other races are creating ethnic characters, perform those characters, and in this case misrepresenting them.
I’ve said before, social media is essentially white people telling other white people what every other race should find offensive. It’s hard to take conversations seriously when that’s the case.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Nov 1, 2018 19:14:05 GMT -5
Al Jean has confirmed Apu is staying.
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Post by Ganon83 on Nov 1, 2018 22:00:54 GMT -5
So I guess Apu isn’t going back to his home planet after all
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Post by thechase on Jan 17, 2020 11:14:55 GMT -5
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 17, 2020 13:46:35 GMT -5
Brace yourself for the RRRAGGGHHHH CANCLE CULTURE tweets.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 13:53:42 GMT -5
Brace yourself for the RRRAGGGHHHH CANCLE CULTURE tweets. Especially from people who stopped watching 15+ years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 14:05:04 GMT -5
Very good to hear, though I'm sure a lot of people are going to say some stupid shit in response.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 17, 2020 14:55:28 GMT -5
F*** it, ask Kumail Nanjiani. Everything that man is involved in is instantly more entertaining because he’s in it
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Post by James Fabiano on Jan 17, 2020 15:18:28 GMT -5
For those who want stereotype comedy, Family Guy is on 90 minutes later...
Wonder if he could have altered his performance of Apu to make it more dignified?
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 18, 2020 5:31:33 GMT -5
I can’t even recall the last time Apu was on the show. Hank is free to step aside, which he did, but I don’t see them laying out the cash to hire a new voice because the next problem is gonna be, why isn’t the new Indian guy getting paid the same as the rest?
Apu is a silent, background character now and that’s probably that.
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Post by crowley1986 on Jan 18, 2020 5:41:22 GMT -5
Just end the show - if your life is that bothered/offended by a cartoon no one can win
Get rid of Apu and a couple of other ethnicity diverse characters all of a sudden you will have the very same members of generation offended whinging that the show is racist because ethnic minorities are under represented.
So you CANNOT win. The Simpsons is a comedy show, it rips the pee out of every single person, type of person, ethnicity going... it’s inclusive even. The reality is the same people moaning about Apu, if he disappears tomorrow will be up in arms that the show is not fairly representative of Indian migrants to the USA..
Apu, a guy who owns his own successful business, is funny, unlucky in love, has dreams and aspirations... yet like EVERY Simpsons character is the butt of a joke occasionally... ITS A COMEDY SHOW !!!!
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