Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,915
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Post by Dub H on Jan 30, 2019 8:23:54 GMT -5
It doesn't sound like wrestling is the only thing your buddy would feel that way about. Cards on the table, say 5-10 years ago I would even talk about not being interested in women's wrestling on here. Though to be fair, I was basing that on the state of most women's wrestling back then when they weren't so much wrestling as flailing about hopelessly. Things have changed. Well cards on the table I have 2 Charlottes and 2 Asukas. pretty sure I win
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Post by SparkyPlugg on Jan 30, 2019 8:29:51 GMT -5
The women’s division needs to be more sexualised. I know that’s not progressive but they need viewers. Alexa Bliss’ terrible dressing room scene the other week got 6.4 million views on YouTube. I’m not talking Attitude era level, but they definitely need to ramp it up a little.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jan 30, 2019 8:42:18 GMT -5
It doesn't sound like wrestling is the only thing your buddy would feel that way about. Cards on the table, say 5-10 years ago I would even talk about not being interested in women's wrestling on here. Though to be fair, I was basing that on the state of most women's wrestling back then when they weren't so much wrestling as flailing about hopelessly. Things have changed. I will happily say that until a few years ago I never thought I would be interested in women's wrestling at all, and not just because I thought what WWE was putting out was bad. I just thought women's wrestling wasn't interesting and didn't have the capacity to be. These days I think some of the best talents in the company are from the women's division.
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 30, 2019 8:43:14 GMT -5
Yes sexists appear in all aspects of society. I would rather watch a whole show of women personally than watch most of these boring men. So it's sexist when someone says they would rather watch a show with only the men wrestling and not the "boring women" but it's not sexist when you say you would rather watch a show with only women and not the "boring men"....gotcha! People have different tastes and that's what makes wrestling great, the fact that people can be entertained by so many different aspects. Heavyweights, cruiserweights, men, women, in the old days midgets, fat people, skinny people, super tall people, people with over the top characters, people with life like characters. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, just because women's wrestling isn't everyone's cup of tea doesn't mean they're sexist or bigoted. 99% of people here complain about Hulk Hogan matches, some people love Hulk Hogan matches, it doesn't mean the people that don't are prejudiced against overly muscled orange people, it's just not their preference.
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Post by eJm on Jan 30, 2019 8:46:34 GMT -5
Alexa Bliss’ terrible dressing room scene the other week got 6.4 million views on YouTube. The Raw the week afterwards did one of the lowest ratings in the show’s history. YouTube views in 2019, when WWE still can’t make a single penny from it because it’s wrestling content and social media in general loses more money than most other parts of the company, means absolutely nothing if people aren’t watching.
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Post by SkullTrauma on Jan 30, 2019 8:55:23 GMT -5
I couldn't care less about the women's roster. They evolved from piss break to shit break.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 30, 2019 8:55:33 GMT -5
It doesn't sound like wrestling is the only thing your buddy would feel that way about. Cards on the table, say 5-10 years ago I would even talk about not being interested in women's wrestling on here. Though to be fair, I was basing that on the state of most women's wrestling back then when they weren't so much wrestling as flailing about hopelessly. Things have changed. Well cards on the table I have 2 Charlottes and 2 Asukas. pretty sure I win I got a Becky. She wins.
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Convoy
El Dandy
Rusev admits to being a sex addict to large applause.
Posts: 7,541
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Post by Convoy on Jan 30, 2019 9:23:14 GMT -5
Honestly this opinion pops up in other places on the internet all the time. On some sites/forums (which I’m not going to name) it’s the majority opinion. Your friend can think what he wants, but I personally don’t agree and like what the women have produced for the last three years or so.
I think FAN overall likes the women’s product, but there are a few posters here that don’t, and that’s just their opinion too. I’m fully content letting people watch or not watch whatever they prefer - doesn’t take away from my enjoyment.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jan 30, 2019 9:35:47 GMT -5
The women’s division needs to be more sexualised. I know that’s not progressive but they need viewers. Alexa Bliss’ terrible dressing room scene the other week got 6.4 million views on YouTube. I’m not talking Attitude era level, but they definitely need to ramp it up a little. Sexualizing the women isn't going to bring in viewers. It honestly hasn't since maybe the Attitude Era. Lingerie pillowfights were not draws. Reality TV-esque contests with models were not draws. In 2019 more than ever, where you can find women naked by searching for it or even just Googling anything at all, there's no reason to tune in for three hours of WWE programming just to see women being "sorta sexualized". Since the last time sexualized women wasn't drawing, we've had stuff like Instagram come out, and I'm sure there are a ton of people thirst following the Instagrams of female wrestlers who aren't tuning in to Raw, they just wanna see gym pics. There is no gray area of people who would be pulled into regular viewing of a three hour show and a $10 a month subscription commitment if only we had more bikini segments. I said it right after it happened, but the Youtube hits weren't going to amount to an actual ratings boost, they weren't going to get any attention or traction. At best it was a drop in the bucket of the many things out there where a conventionally attractive woman does something while being conventionally attractive. "We need this to be sexier so viewers care about the women more" is baffling.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,915
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Post by Dub H on Jan 30, 2019 9:51:37 GMT -5
The women’s division needs to be more sexualised. I know that’s not progressive but they need viewers. Alexa Bliss’ terrible dressing room scene the other week got 6.4 million views on YouTube. I’m not talking Attitude era level, but they definitely need to ramp it up a little. Sexualizing the women isn't going to bring in viewers. It honestly hasn't since maybe the Attitude Era. Lingerie pillowfights were not draws. Reality TV-esque contests with models were not draws. In 2019 more than ever, where you can find women naked by searching for it or even just Googling anything at all, there's no reason to tune in for three hours of WWE programming just to see women being "sorta sexualized". Since the last time sexualized women wasn't drawing, we've had stuff like Instagram come out, and I'm sure there are a ton of people thirst following the Instagrams of female wrestlers who aren't tuning in to Raw, they just wanna see gym pics. There is no gray area of people who would be pulled into regular viewing of a three hour show and a $10 a month subscription commitment if only we had more bikini segments. I said it right after it happened, but the Youtube hits weren't going to amount to an actual ratings boost, they weren't going to get any attention or traction. At best it was a drop in the bucket of the many things out there where a conventionally attractive woman does something while being conventionally attractive. "We need this to be sexier so viewers care about the women more" is baffling. The YouTube video is basically clickbait ALEXA BLISS TOPLESS?!! But I think there is room for sexy ,like when Mandy invited Uso to her room. But not random things like Alexas that serve no purpose
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on Jan 31, 2019 0:22:09 GMT -5
Yes sexists appear in all aspects of society. I would rather watch a whole show of women personally than watch most of these boring men. So it's sexist when someone says they would rather watch a show with only the men wrestling and not the "boring women" but it's not sexist when you say you would rather watch a show with only women and not the "boring men"....gotcha! People have different tastes and that's what makes wrestling great, the fact that people can be entertained by so many different aspects. Heavyweights, cruiserweights, men, women, in the old days midgets, fat people, skinny people, super tall people, people with over the top characters, people with life like characters. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, just because women's wrestling isn't everyone's cup of tea doesn't mean they're sexist or bigoted. 99% of people here complain about Hulk Hogan matches, some people love Hulk Hogan matches, it doesn't mean the people that don't are prejudiced against overly muscled orange people, it's just not their preference. Well he also said the women's revolution was terrible and he doesn't want a show half full of women. Had he just said he found the women's characters boring that would be something. But to have an issue them being featured as much simply because they are women and pine for the Attitude era's treatment of females is a terrible attitude.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 0:37:03 GMT -5
I think they're doing a great job with the women these days. Not amazing but great as there's some things I don't enjoy but still overall, I'd say most of the women's programming I enjoy. Honestly, nah, I wouldn't want the women being sexualized unless the men do it as well. Can't be just the women. All the WWE needs to do is keep it up with the women programming and we're good.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jan 31, 2019 0:47:01 GMT -5
I have zero shame in saying that for years I would never watch the women matches at all. Trish and Lits were alright but remember the years of the likes of Kelly Kelly? I didn’t give a damn she was attractive as if I want to see attractive woman I can look elsewhere, I watch the wrestling for the wrestling. But I don’t belive I was being sexist, it was that 95% of the women were models and they were pretty awful. The last year or so though? I don’t go out of my way to watch much of the product other than some of my favourites, the top guys and that but I have watched the women and some of them are fantastic. Sasha is a great athlete, so is Charlotte and I love Ronda. So they are definitely worth your time. In the past it was a combination of them sucking and also being used badly or not at all, or barely at all. “Here come the women for a 4 minute match”. Now they’re doing really well so I do watch them The times have changed and for the better. Alexa Bliss for example if she came in 10 years ago, she would be like Kelly Kelly, as in just eye candy as would most any none trained wrestler coming into the WWE. The WWE now hired more people who have wrestled in the indies. Alexa wasn't really that but she was trained a lot longer than most did at the time. It used to be Finlay would show them a few things before a Raw or Smackdown from week to week and go from there. Which very few really got good because they where only shown just enough to work that 4 min match instead of now they are longer. But I look at Alexa as a Trish in now, like who gets better and better but when she comes on the main roster must farther in training but since she didn't have the years going in. She was one of the few the WWE trained from the bottom up if you will.
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Nr1Humanoid
Hank Scorpio
Is the #3 humanoid at best.
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Jan 31, 2019 5:03:27 GMT -5
Getting rid of the stink of the Diva label is a lot to overcome. That and old Effie making herself the face of the women's revolution.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Jan 31, 2019 7:33:53 GMT -5
People in general have a hard time adjusting to things, especially when something like the portrayal of women, which was so poor for years and years. Even the standouts were subjected to crazy stuff that would never fly nowadays. A lot of us here were behind it from the get go, though that doesn't exempt aspects about it from criticism. The women's revolution of the modern era was handled in a very ham-fisted way, and that is going to come across as even more abrasive to the average AE-era fan who is already having a hard time adjusting. A lot of media has been like this in recent times, and it can get extremely irritating when it comes across as an agenda or marketing opportunity masked as something more innocent. WWE handled it with the subtlety of a steamroller. Though through it all, you could see the goodness in the movement and why it was necessary to change things. Yeah, I would've handled it differently, but I'm just glad it actually happened. The women are a separate division from the men, though I would argue that the division has a lot of weak spots either from an in-ring standpoint or especially a convincing character standpoint. The Total Divas stuff doesn't help. There is a lot of talent, more than ever before in history, but when they push people who are difficult to listen to or aren't very entertaining, it's not a good representation of the rest of the talent they have. If someone is already upset that some of their favorite men aren't being featured and yet someone like that is, you can understand the frustration. Like anything else, it'll take some time. You're gonna lose some fans, gain some fans, and eventually people will come to terms with it. Thankfully with people as well-rounded as Becky, they'll help bridge the gap a bit for anyone who will give them a chance. And if people still won't give 'em a chance even when they prove themselves? They can get left behind. That's actually an interesting point, he never really said much to me about other than there were alot more womens matches now. Until the all womens PPV promotion started, since then he's been way more against it. I remember how frustrated he was with them promoting it every 2 seconds.
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agent817
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by agent817 on Jan 31, 2019 23:05:01 GMT -5
All I can say is that women's wrestling has come a long way and I am more than happy to see that the women are taken more seriously than ever before.
It sounds like your friend needs to really see that women can do things like this. Has he even watched anything like Shimmer or Shine?
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Juice
El Dandy
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Post by Juice on Jan 31, 2019 23:11:17 GMT -5
I think people overcompensate because they feel the need to “make up” for the attitude era. The matches are mostly bland and they don’t really have a story. If not for Rhonda they would be still opening the show and most of them should be. I agree with this.
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Post by eJm on Jan 31, 2019 23:17:34 GMT -5
People in general have a hard time adjusting to things, especially when something like the portrayal of women, which was so poor for years and years. Even the standouts were subjected to crazy stuff that would never fly nowadays. A lot of us here were behind it from the get go, though that doesn't exempt aspects about it from criticism. The women's revolution of the modern era was handled in a very ham-fisted way, and that is going to come across as even more abrasive to the average AE-era fan who is already having a hard time adjusting. A lot of media has been like this in recent times, and it can get extremely irritating when it comes across as an agenda or marketing opportunity masked as something more innocent. WWE handled it with the subtlety of a steamroller. Though through it all, you could see the goodness in the movement and why it was necessary to change things. Yeah, I would've handled it differently, but I'm just glad it actually happened. The women are a separate division from the men, though I would argue that the division has a lot of weak spots either from an in-ring standpoint or especially a convincing character standpoint. The Total Divas stuff doesn't help. There is a lot of talent, more than ever before in history, but when they push people who are difficult to listen to or aren't very entertaining, it's not a good representation of the rest of the talent they have. If someone is already upset that some of their favorite men aren't being featured and yet someone like that is, you can understand the frustration. Like anything else, it'll take some time. You're gonna lose some fans, gain some fans, and eventually people will come to terms with it. Thankfully with people as well-rounded as Becky, they'll help bridge the gap a bit for anyone who will give them a chance. And if people still won't give 'em a chance even when they prove themselves? They can get left behind. That's actually an interesting point, he never really said much to me about other than there were alot more womens matches now. Until the all womens PPV promotion started, since then he's been way more against it. I remember how frustrated he was with them promoting it every 2 seconds. The weird thing was that they weren’t doing that. Like, they were promoting a show they were getting a tonne of heat media wise from and one that’s resulted in them distancing themselves from the mess they put themselves in more than a show that was the complete opposite of that. The go home angle for Evolution was, apparently, Randy Orton vs. Jeff Hardy for some reason.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 23:19:41 GMT -5
Getting rid of the stink of the Diva label is a lot to overcome. That and old Effie making herself the face of the women's revolution. As far as I know, Vince or whoever writes the script for commentary make them say stuff like that. Despite her on screen heel character, she really doesn’t seem as egotistical as most make her out to be.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 31, 2019 23:25:25 GMT -5
Believe it or not my mom had a similar reaction to the Rumble when I talked to her about it on Monday, something to the effect of "They have to stop with all these women. That show was just too long and wore me out." Here's a cold hard dose of reality: Women's wrestling is a niche product. It isn't a draw. The only time an actual women's feud did draw was something like Wendi Richter vs. Moolah and that was billed as quite literally Richter ending Moolah's 28 year title reign. And it had Cyndi Lauper for mainstream MTV crossover appeal.
Frankly I think WWE misread the room on this one. The whole "Give divas a chance!" deal was a reaction to a frankly insulting 30 second match with the Bellas and whoever. A chance means give this like 6 minutes. It didn't mean entire women's Royal Rumbles, HIAC matches, Elimination Chambers, Money in the Bank, etc. The serious dilemma is that women's titles over the past 20 years mean basically nothing, but now WWE is focusing more time and creative into titles that try as they might just don't MATTER very much.
Say what you want about stuff like the Mandy Rose angle but I can at least grasp that it's targeting a specific demo. That's one massive problem the whole Women's Revolution has. There's really no target audience for it. A lot of grown women don't want to watch women's wrestling. They want hunky beefcake men. Younger men 18-35 don't care about this either, since they would prefer hard hitting men's wrestling or sexualized women (as noted elsewhere here). Viewers over 50 have zero use for women's wrestling in general, having never had it as a major part of their wrestling experience. So basically you're left with a target audience of preteen girls, which is just never going to be a real serious demo for a wrestling product. That's the problem with WWE to me right now. The whole product has no target audience. You can appeal to kids and families like in the 1980s. You can go hard after a male 18-35 demo like the Attitude Era and the guys dragged the girls to the arenas with them. WWE says they appeal to kids but the show is full of ambiguous characters that aren't clearly good or bad, angles that would confuse, shows that are too long, etc. 8 year old me was instantly fascinated by Hogan/Andre with Dibiase wanting to buy the belt. 8 year old me would not want to see a bunch of women on a wrestling show. Maybe a wild undercard deal like the Jumping Bomb Angels, but not like 40% of the show.
What I don't think people here realize is that fans don't have to "adjust" to anything. If WWE has veered too far away from what they want, they don't adjust. They stop watching.
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