Sephiroth
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Post by Sephiroth on Mar 7, 2019 14:41:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure one way or the other whether he fondled the kids but even if he didn't physically touch them there's always been something inherently creepy about his relationships with children. He doesn't really have anyone to blame but himself for people being weirded out by his behaviour. As for "well he's not here to defend himself" Well, to play devils advocate neither was Jimmy Saville. I believe Michael Jackson did do inappropriate things whth kids. I’d love to be proven wrong definitely. But unlike Savile, who apparently committed his crimes for the delight of exerting power over others, I think Jackson was genuinely deluded and did realize he was inflicting any kind of harm.
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Mar 7, 2019 14:43:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure one way or the other whether he fondled the kids but even if he didn't physically touch them there's always been something inherently creepy about his relationships with children. He doesn't really have anyone to blame but himself for people being weirded out by his behaviour. As for "well he's not here to defend himself" Well, to play devils advocate neither was Jimmy Saville. I believe Michael Jackson did do inappropriate things whth kids. I’d love to be proven wrong definitely. But unlike Savile, who apparently committed his crimes for the delight of exerting power over others, I think Jackson was genuinely deluded and did realize he was inflicting any kind of harm. I really wish Saville got caught before he died
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Mar 7, 2019 14:43:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure one way or the other whether he fondled the kids but even if he didn't physically touch them there's always been something inherently creepy about his relationships with children. He doesn't really have anyone to blame but himself for people being weirded out by his behaviour. As for "well he's not here to defend himself" Well, to play devils advocate neither was Jimmy Saville. I believe Michael Jackson did do inappropriate things whth kids. I’d love to be proven wrong definitely. But unlike Savile, who apparently committed his crimes for the delight of exerting power over others, I think Jackson was genuinely deluded and did realize he was inflicting any kind of harm. I mean... He flat out admitted to sharing his bed with kids in an interview. Even if he didn't touch them it's still inappropriate. Factor in that he was paying a lot of these medical bills and it was always going to come off as predatory. As I said I don't know that Jacko was a diddler but his relationships with these kids was still inappropriate.
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Mar 7, 2019 14:44:39 GMT -5
I believe Michael Jackson did do inappropriate things whth kids. I’d love to be proven wrong definitely. But unlike Savile, who apparently committed his crimes for the delight of exerting power over others, I think Jackson was genuinely deluded and did realize he was inflicting any kind of harm. I mean... He flat out admitted to sharing his bed with kids in an interview. Even if he didn't touch them it's still inappropriate. Factor in that he was paying a lot of these medical bills and it was always going to come off as predatory. As I said I don't know that Jacko was a diddler but his relationships with these kids was still inappropriate. He was a strange and troubled man for sure. I can’t help believing the claims or some of them from this doc but I really would rather not.
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 7, 2019 15:07:19 GMT -5
Savile was an open secret, with victims in the hundreds, known by everyone who couldn't touch him due to his political connections. With Jackson, all the accusers are dubious, although he certainly opened himself up to accusations through his own stupidity.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 7, 2019 15:20:19 GMT -5
I believe Michael Jackson did do inappropriate things whth kids. I’d love to be proven wrong definitely. But unlike Savile, who apparently committed his crimes for the delight of exerting power over others, I think Jackson was genuinely deluded and did realize he was inflicting any kind of harm. I mean... He flat out admitted to sharing his bed with kids in an interview. Even if he didn't touch them it's still inappropriate. Factor in that he was paying a lot of these medical bills and it was always going to come off as predatory. As I said I don't know that Jacko was a diddler but his relationships with these kids was still inappropriate. Yeah, they were no doubt inappropriate and Mike did that himself which has allowed for these rumors to linger as long as they have
I don't think he did anything to them BUT no matter where your heart is, as a grown ass man you should kno better. I'm sorry your childhood was f***ed up and you may have been a kid at heart but that can't fly
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Mar 7, 2019 16:12:50 GMT -5
I haven’t seen it yet but I have a hard time believing Michael Jackson was completely innocent. I’m not talking about these accusations in the documentary since I don’t know all the details there. I just mean in general when it comes to the allegations against him. I remember Jackson going on television and saying he was completely innocent and then turning right around and paying the family of the 13 year old boy that acccused him $23 million dollars. Sometimes people will pay a large sum of money to avoid a potential scandal from ever seeing the light of day. I can kind of understand that. The Jackson scandal was known everywhere for the longest time. He didn’t pay to avoid making the news. He paid to avoid a trial. He proclaimed innocence yet he paid $23 million dollars instead of defending himself. That never sat right with me. If you have nothing to worry about and you know there is zero evidence against you you don’t hand someone looking to harm you $23 million dollars. That shows guilt to me. It also encourages others to come forward against you because you’re seen as an easy payday.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Mar 7, 2019 16:17:02 GMT -5
The thing I appreciate is how honest the doc is about the psychology of abuse victims: the ambivalence. The "At the time, it didn't feel like there was anything wrong with it" and "I wanted to stay with him, because the days were amazing even though the nights were awful" and "I loved him, which made everything else feel unimportant."
So much so-called 'common sense' just doesn't apply for people who are being abused, and it's really good for people to see that.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Mar 7, 2019 16:24:57 GMT -5
I do find it critical that both Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman have repeatedly defended Jackson and have stated he never abused them; all the more telling given the latter has not hesitated in calling out predators in Hollywood by name. That doesn't prove his innocence of any wrongdoing, but it does contrast him with the likes of a Jimmy Savile who was said to have preyed on so many kids that testimonies were coming in from all over England after he died. The Feldman thing is the biggest reason I believe he's innocent, honestly. The guy on live (I think?) television flat out accused nearly all of Hollywood of being pedophiles, yet has defended Michael. Even if you want to say he was paid off, this interview was after MJs death, so it's a nothing to gain thing.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 7, 2019 17:33:03 GMT -5
I believe Michael Jackson did do inappropriate things whth kids. I’d love to be proven wrong definitely. But unlike Savile, who apparently committed his crimes for the delight of exerting power over others, I think Jackson was genuinely deluded and did realize he was inflicting any kind of harm. I mean... He flat out admitted to sharing his bed with kids in an interview. Even if he didn't touch them it's still inappropriate. Factor in that he was paying a lot of these medical bills and it was always going to come off as predatory. As I said I don't know that Jacko was a diddler but his relationships with these kids was still inappropriate. At the very least, he put himself in really iffy situations repeatedly&showed horrifying judgment and was pretty f***ed up in the head. From the books I've read, I don't think/hope he didn't..but I can't day for sure and he definitely didn't do himself any favors. You hope it was just he was an arrested development weirdo instead of a monster. Feldman etc saying he didn't do anything to them is good, BUT doesn't really prove he didn't do anything to someone else. An abuser might harm this kid over here while leaving another kid alone completely. Like I say, I hope he was just a kooky dude and no more.
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Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Mar 7, 2019 17:43:23 GMT -5
It was tough to watch at times. Especially when details were made out to be graphic.
Jackson was f***ed up. We won’t know whether he did or not but..just a whole lotta strangeness there. And always been there.
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The Thread Barbi
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 7, 2019 17:52:59 GMT -5
This is what I have been saying, as many went to want to blackball MJ now, there was no proof shown that it happened or anything new to add, outside they years later want to change there story. They clearly did this for more attention. Some would say MJ paid them to be quiet, ok sure could be possible but that would put them in a lot of trouble for now admitting they lied in court right? Than I guess HBO and whoever filmed this, than paid them to come out with this story as well. Either way it's a clear paid day in some way. The fact they waited so many years after the man is dead and in no way defend himself. Does say something. Yea, it's a rabbit hole. If they lied in court they would be in trouble though the easy excuse would be they were just kids. The obvious excuse would be Michael paid them and their parents but then people are going to want to see a paper trail and if they can't provide that then it's down the train. If he touched them kids, no parent on earth would let their kid lie in court if there is no money involved so the question would be why did you lie. In a sense tho I can see why they waited. If you tried to do this right after he died you wouldn't be heard at all. However, in the world we live now where the R Kelly documentary has f***ed him over, Bill Cosby past has caught up to him, people are more willing to listen to your story but you have to have compelling evidence. I'm pretty sure people want to interview them and have them be questioned about the finer details (This could all be answered in the doc tho as I haven't watched yet) The family isn't going to take this lying down tho I would assume. If the backlash does continue to grow and it effects his legacy I expect them to fight back but so far it's been out a few days and it really isn't a big part of the news
Except they weren't kids. Wade Robson was an adult in his early 20s during the 2005 trial. He had his chance to take Michael Jackson down but under oath stated Michael hadn't done anything to him.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Mar 7, 2019 17:53:04 GMT -5
Just because Culkin and Feldman said that he didn't touch them doesn't mean he didn't touch anyone.
That's falling into the "Well he didn't x, me." fallacy.
Serial killers don't murder everyone they come into contact with either doesn't mean they didn't murder anyone.
Now I'm not saying he molested anyone or not I don't know.
But there is strong evidence he absolutely groomed and abused them EMOTIONALLY, if not physically. Then abandoned them the moment they hit puberty and that's not really much better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2019 17:59:09 GMT -5
I’m not one to victim blame or anything but these guys have absolute no credibility whatsoever.
Jackson was investigated for 10 YEARS by the FBI and nothing was proven. These two guys in particular even stood up in court in 2005 and said nothing happened. Now all of a sudden Wade Robson is out of cash and decides to change his mind and milk his dead mentor for money... nah, I’m not buying it.
It’s a disgrace that Channel 4 aired this IMO.
I don’t doubt that Jackson was a bit strange but I don’t believe he was ever a peadophile. The whole “Neverland” thing was a wet dream for anyone who wanted to accuse somebody of this.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 7, 2019 18:18:05 GMT -5
Yea, it's a rabbit hole. If they lied in court they would be in trouble though the easy excuse would be they were just kids. The obvious excuse would be Michael paid them and their parents but then people are going to want to see a paper trail and if they can't provide that then it's down the train. If he touched them kids, no parent on earth would let their kid lie in court if there is no money involved so the question would be why did you lie. In a sense tho I can see why they waited. If you tried to do this right after he died you wouldn't be heard at all. However, in the world we live now where the R Kelly documentary has f***ed him over, Bill Cosby past has caught up to him, people are more willing to listen to your story but you have to have compelling evidence. I'm pretty sure people want to interview them and have them be questioned about the finer details (This could all be answered in the doc tho as I haven't watched yet) The family isn't going to take this lying down tho I would assume. If the backlash does continue to grow and it effects his legacy I expect them to fight back but so far it's been out a few days and it really isn't a big part of the news
Except they weren't kids. Wade Robson was an adult in his early 20s during the 2005 trial. He had his chance to take Michael Jackson down but under oath stated Michael hadn't done anything to him. Oh shit I didn’t know he was that old
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Mar 7, 2019 18:20:19 GMT -5
Just because Culkin and Feldman said that he didn't touch them doesn't mean he didn't touch anyone. That's falling into the "Well he didn't x, me." fallacy. Serial killers don't murder everyone they come into contact with either doesn't mean they didn't murder anyone. Now I'm not saying he molested anyone or not I don't know. But there is strong evidence he absolutely groomed and abused them EMOTIONALLY, if not physically. Then abandoned them the moment they hit puberty and that's not really much better. One other thing is Culkin was famous so it might have been too much of a risk for Jackson to do anything
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Mar 7, 2019 18:52:00 GMT -5
I don’t buy into the whole “these famous kids said they were never touched by Michael Jackson so he’s not guilty” line either. Let’s be honest here. A famous child star is going to get more attention and believability if they were to come forward with an allegation. Little Timmy from Bumfugg, Iowa... not so much. A random unknown kid is going to be far more prone to being star struck or afraid of saying anything about Jackson. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. I’m sure Jackson was well aware of that too.
I remember watching the Katt Williams standup The Pimp Chronicles. He did a whole routine where he talked about having things like silk pillows or peach wine at his house not because he wanted them but because women liked them and he was trying to attract women. He said if he wanted to attract little boys he’d fill his house with video games, animals... and maybe put up an amusement park. It was a funny bit but he had a good point.
I don’t know what Jackson’s deal was but it looked creepy to me. The two women he supposedly had relations with were most likely paid off. No other woman has ever come forward claiming to have been with him. I can still remember the hush that fell over the crowd when Brooke Shields took the stage at his memorial service. She started to cry and you could sense the crowd feeling vindicated because here was a woman Jackson dated crying for him. Then she let everyone know they were only friends. That nothing ever happened between them. The crowd fell silent. Brooke Shields is a beautiful woman and was extremely attractive back then. Guess he wasn’t interested, even though it appeared they were “dating.” All those weird public relations moves with Lisa Marie were creepy too. Definitely felt like a financial arrangement. I don’t think she’s looking for work now so whatever. Creepy.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Mar 7, 2019 19:28:05 GMT -5
I've always thought his behavior was inappropriate, but not criminal.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Mar 7, 2019 19:36:36 GMT -5
I don’t buy into the whole “these famous kids said they were never touched by Michael Jackson so he’s not guilty” line either. Let’s be honest here. A famous child star is going to get more attention and believability if they were to come forward with an allegation. Little Timmy from Bumfugg, Iowa... not so much. A random unknown kid is going to be far more prone to being star struck or afraid of saying anything about Jackson. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. I’m sure Jackson was well aware of that too. I remember watching the Katt Williams standup The Pimp Chronicles. He did a whole routine where he talked about having things like silk pillows or peach wine at his house not because he wanted them but because women liked them and he was trying to attract women. He said if he wanted to attract little boys he’d fill his house with video games, animals... and maybe put up an amusement park. It was a funny bit but he had a good point. I don’t know what Jackson’s deal was but it looked creepy to me. The two women he supposedly had relations with were most likely paid off. No other woman has ever come forward claiming to have been with him. I can still remember the hush that fell over the crowd when Brooke Shields took the stage at his memorial service. She started to cry and you could sense the crowd feeling vindicated because here was a woman Jackson dated crying for him. Then she let everyone know they were only friends. That nothing ever happened between them. The crowd fell silent. Brooke Shields is a beautiful woman and was extremely attractive back then. Guess he wasn’t interested, even though it appeared they were “dating.” All those weird public relations moves with Lisa Marie were creepy too. Definitely felt like a financial arrangement. I don’t think she’s looking for work now so whatever. Creepy. I remember when he married Lisa Marie my dad saying “He’s after Elvis’ songs now” after he bought the Beatles song publishing.
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Mar 7, 2019 19:38:35 GMT -5
I don’t buy into the whole “these famous kids said they were never touched by Michael Jackson so he’s not guilty” line either. Let’s be honest here. A famous child star is going to get more attention and believability if they were to come forward with an allegation. Little Timmy from Bumfugg, Iowa... not so much. A random unknown kid is going to be far more prone to being star struck or afraid of saying anything about Jackson. It doesn’t take a genius to figure that out. I’m sure Jackson was well aware of that too. I remember watching the Katt Williams standup The Pimp Chronicles. He did a whole routine where he talked about having things like silk pillows or peach wine at his house not because he wanted them but because women liked them and he was trying to attract women. He said if he wanted to attract little boys he’d fill his house with video games, animals... and maybe put up an amusement park. It was a funny bit but he had a good point. I don’t know what Jackson’s deal was but it looked creepy to me. The two women he supposedly had relations with were most likely paid off. No other woman has ever come forward claiming to have been with him. I can still remember the hush that fell over the crowd when Brooke Shields took the stage at his memorial service. She started to cry and you could sense the crowd feeling vindicated because here was a woman Jackson dated crying for him. Then she let everyone know they were only friends. That nothing ever happened between them. The crowd fell silent. Brooke Shields is a beautiful woman and was extremely attractive back then. Guess he wasn’t interested, even though it appeared they were “dating.” All those weird public relations moves with Lisa Marie were creepy too. Definitely felt like a financial arrangement. I don’t think she’s looking for work now so whatever. Creepy. I remember when he married Lisa Marie my dad saying “He’s after Elvis’ songs now” after he bought the Beatles song publishing. That Beatles move was smart business. I’ll always give him credit for that.
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