Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 9, 2019 5:18:01 GMT -5
You know guys, about the Simpsons pulling the Michael Jackson episode... I get it, but I really wish they didn't do it. Not because I'm a huge fan of Michael Jackson, but because of my stance on media being pulled because of changed values in society. I guess this is similar to WWE not referencing Chris Benoit, but the producers can actually pull it because he was in only one episode. I'm not saying celebrate it, but keep it in circulation with the understanding of the time and conditions in which it occured. I get you on changed values on society, although personally there is a point where media becomes so different it won't be shown and become historical document of the time it was created, but that's the nature of society. But this isn't really that, sleeping with kids has been seen as wrong for a VERY long time at this point, it was wrong at the time the episode was made and was what brought his career down the first time. These are new allegations, whether anyone believes they're true or not, and it's made his name toxic to the point they don't want to be associated with it.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Mar 9, 2019 5:30:48 GMT -5
You know guys, about the Simpsons pulling the Michael Jackson episode... I get it, but I really wish they didn't do it. Not because I'm a huge fan of Michael Jackson, but because of my stance on media being pulled because of changed values in society. I guess this is similar to WWE not referencing Chris Benoit, but the producers can actually pull it because he was in only one episode. I'm not saying celebrate it, but keep it in circulation with the understanding of the time and conditions in which it occured. I get you on changed values on society, although personally there is a point where media becomes so different it won't be shown and become historical document of the time it was created, but that's the nature of society. But this isn't really that, sleeping with kids has been seen as wrong for a VERY long time at this point, it was wrong at the time the episode was made and was what brought his career down the first time. These are new allegations, whether anyone believes they're true or not, and it's made his name toxic to the point they don't want to be associated with it. True, and please don't misunderstand me on changed values part of my statement. You're right these crimes were wrong then and wrong now. I'm just a big believer that pulling something like this or cartoons with racial stereotypes is the same as saying it never existed. Michael Jackson was, at one point, the biggest star on earth. And if you believer the accustations he used that power to do horrible things.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,037
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 9, 2019 6:07:01 GMT -5
I get you on changed values on society, although personally there is a point where media becomes so different it won't be shown and become historical document of the time it was created, but that's the nature of society. But this isn't really that, sleeping with kids has been seen as wrong for a VERY long time at this point, it was wrong at the time the episode was made and was what brought his career down the first time. These are new allegations, whether anyone believes they're true or not, and it's made his name toxic to the point they don't want to be associated with it. True, and please don't misunderstand me on changed values part of my statement. You're right these crimes were wrong then and wrong now. I'm just a big believer that pulling something like this or cartoons with racial stereotypes is the same as saying it never existed. Michael Jackson was, at one point, the biggest star on earth. And if you believer the accustations he used that power to do horrible things. Good to get that clarified. At some point, a lot of media just naturally falls away. A lot of the old cartoons with those stereotypes, well, who'd be watching them anyway? Same with films, when's the last time someone sat down to watch "Birth of a Nation" for fun? Michael Jackson's a different case because he was such an icon, but he is still sliding into the oldies category, like Elvis, The Beatles etc. Even on oldies or 80s stations, I can't remember the last time I heard one of his songs, this is just accelerating his decent into a piece of history. No doubt he'll be studied, and a few of us when we're old will kick back and tell kids this was REAL music. But apart from his death being a major event, he hasn't been a part of the culture for quite some time. It's just now people are feeling like they have to make announcements about something that was happening already.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 9, 2019 7:52:09 GMT -5
The Simpsons people/Fox made plenty of money off the Jackson episode for years including all the years he was accused by the other two kids in the 90's and 2000's via syndication and DVD/Blu-Ray sales so they can take their righteous indignation and shove it.
It is not exactly breaking news that Michael Jackson was (at the very least) an unsavory character who was doing inappropriate things. It's been known for roughly 25 years but they're only pulling the episode now because they think it's good PR for them to do it.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Mar 9, 2019 9:59:40 GMT -5
True, and please don't misunderstand me on changed values part of my statement. You're right these crimes were wrong then and wrong now. I'm just a big believer that pulling something like this or cartoons with racial stereotypes is the same as saying it never existed. Michael Jackson was, at one point, the biggest star on earth. And if you believer the accustations he used that power to do horrible things. Good to get that clarified. At some point, a lot of media just naturally falls away. A lot of the old cartoons with those stereotypes, well, who'd be watching them anyway? Same with films, when's the last time someone sat down to watch "Birth of a Nation" for fun? Michael Jackson's a different case because he was such an icon, but he is still sliding into the oldies category, like Elvis, The Beatles etc. Even on oldies or 80s stations, I can't remember the last time I heard one of his songs, this is just accelerating his decent into a piece of history. No doubt he'll be studied, and a few of us when we're old will kick back and tell kids this was REAL music. But apart from his death being a major event, he hasn't been a part of the culture for quite some time. It's just now people are feeling like they have to make announcements about something that was happening already. Yeah, I guess we have to agree to disagree on this. I respect the decision to pull it, but I just feel like removing these kinds of things doesn't mean it didn't happen and they should at least be acknowledged. Although I can totally see why the producers of the Simpsons wouldn't a adult male voiced by Michael Jackson hanging around a 10 year old boy and living in the parents house for a short period. But I actually sat down and finished the documentary. I found it deeply troubling look into the habits of a pedophile and how celebrity can make normal people (I mean the kids parents) make unwise decisions. Also I hate several pieces of news footage had Matt Lauer in it. It kind of speaks to the monsters that we had in plain sight... and how many more are out there?
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Post by brown bricks on Mar 9, 2019 11:00:45 GMT -5
I don't know what to believe after watching this. I hate to say these guys are liars because there's no way to know that for a fact. Michael Jackson was a weird, weird dude (to say the least), so I don't exactly have a hard time believing any of this.
Having said that, the "spread your butt while looking at Peter Pan" thing is something that I have a hard time wrapping my brain around. I'm not sure if "spreading your butt while looking at Peter Pan" should be tagged as a spoiler, so forgive me.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 9, 2019 11:26:04 GMT -5
With the Simpsons, I've got no problem with it since it's a 30 year old show where the character appeared one time and had no bearing whatever outside that 22 minute episode almost 3 decades ago. It'd be like pulling some random episode of Night Court out of syndication except for the fact that Simpsons is still goin.
Really Fox didn't even have to announce they were pulling it, coulda just quietly taken it out of rotation and probably no one would have noticed.
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Paul
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Post by Paul on Mar 9, 2019 12:52:49 GMT -5
The episode will be back on the website when the bad press from the documentary has passed (probably within a year at most). The episode is too popular to keep it away forever. It's one of the more popular episodes of the series from an era when the show was hugely popular.
The same goes for the radio station clusters who have removed his music. It will return once this bad press passes.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,037
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Mar 9, 2019 12:58:38 GMT -5
Quite possibly, with this being so much more muddier than other scandals like R.Kelly and Cosby, it's harder to draw a definitive line on all of this. It'll die down, then likely after some time this will happen again, and we'll all go through the same arguments unless one side provides a 100% piece of proof either way which is increasingly unlikely.
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Post by wildojinx on Mar 9, 2019 14:48:27 GMT -5
As for music, Spotify (one of the biggest streaming platforms around) still hasnt removed his music.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 9, 2019 18:31:45 GMT -5
Watching this in small doses. Initially hard to stomach but after sleeping on it, so many illogical inconsistencies. {Spoiler}The one that stands out is, in the absence of other victims, this alleged peado groomed these two gentlemen over three years each before molesting them? A horny predator would surely get his kicks sooner, and more often [\Spoiler]
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mcstoklasa
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Post by mcstoklasa on Mar 9, 2019 19:04:04 GMT -5
Watching this in small doses. Initially hard to stomach but after sleeping on it, so many illogical inconsistencies. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}The one that stands out is, in the absence of other victims, this alleged peado groomed these two gentlemen over three years each before molesting them? A horny predator would surely get his kicks sooner, and more often [\Spoiler] Hasn’t there been five accusers in total?
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 9, 2019 19:36:28 GMT -5
Watching this in small doses. Initially hard to stomach but after sleeping on it, so many illogical inconsistencies. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}The one that stands out is, in the absence of other victims, this alleged peado groomed these two gentlemen over three years each before molesting them? A horny predator would surely get his kicks sooner, and more often [\Spoiler] Hasn’t there been five accusers in total? Jordan Chandler and Gavin Arvizo from the legal proceedings. The two in Leaving Neverland. Who's the fifth?
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Mar 9, 2019 20:01:56 GMT -5
When Piers Morgan is the voice of reason
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Post by Prince Petty on Mar 9, 2019 20:43:45 GMT -5
I do find it critical that both Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman have repeatedly defended Jackson and have stated he never abused them; all the more telling given the latter has not hesitated in calling out predators in Hollywood by name. That doesn't prove his innocence of any wrongdoing, but it does contrast him with the likes of a Jimmy Savile who was said to have preyed on so many kids that testimonies were coming in from all over England after he died. I would offer this counterpoint - abusers don't abuse everyone who fits their 'type'. And if Jackson's accusers are to be believed, he focused on more vulnerable boys, from families that were more likely to be won over by his star power and his money. Culkin and Feldman didn't fit that profile - two child stars with significant visibility and access to a media platform as well as their own sources of financial security. Feldman has said, after watching the documentary, that he can no longer defend Jackson: eu.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2019/03/07/corey-feldman-can-no-longer-defend-michael-jackson-after-neverland/3098442002/He inhabits a similar place in the public consciousness that Jimmy Savile did (at least, in the UK). That is, a deceased but 'much loved' figure who was famous for being very odd. Michael Jackson was obviously considerably more talented and successful, but I just don't see the end results being at all similar. Jackson's fans will simply never believe the allegations, no matter how credible, and it seems there is far less evidence, which means nothing is likely to ever be proven. As for Savile, my uncle claimed that everyone knew about his proclivities, for a long time. In the early 1960s, Savile ran a nightclub in Manchester that my uncle used to go to, and he said it was an open secret. Why nothing was ever done about it says a lot about 'mind your own business' attitudes back then, I guess.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Mar 10, 2019 3:07:53 GMT -5
Yes I believed he did it and the stuff that came out in the doc is so damning. All his defenses seem to be so based on strawman arguments. He didn't molest every boy he came in contact therefore he couldn't molest any boy. Or "at the very least he had a child like mind because of his shitty upbringing." Childlike enough to know how to flank McCartney on acquiring the Beatles music yet he settled with a family for more than they were suing him for. He was a shrewd businessman and had all the traits of other manipulators. He knew how to drive wedges into families and exploit there weaknesses to "protect" their sons. He knew how to passively activate his fans to attack his accusers like cult leaders and Alex Joneses. He knew enough to put alarms in the floorboards to his bedroom. That doesn't fit with the oft portrayed image of being a child's dream mansion. That's what someone paranoid and hiding something does. He never ever sympathized with a kid after they came out. Even if somehow you believe all the shit was made up then the kids were being used by the media or bad parents. Instead it was always about the trouble it caused him. It's like he couldn't care about those kids once they were of no use to him. He treated them like a dejected lover not like a dejected caretaker/protector. Nah man he was a textbook predator but he did it so out in the open that nobody could see it. People didn't snoop back then. People couldn't wrap their heads around an NBA player getting AIDS or finding out their favorite flamboyant musician was gay.
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Post by I'm Team Bayley and Indi on Mar 10, 2019 3:46:11 GMT -5
As a sequel to Finding Neverland it just didn't work for me (crap joke over)
Even before this doc and recent allegations this was always going to be part of his legacy
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Post by The Legendary Ring Troll {BLM} on Mar 10, 2019 6:12:06 GMT -5
Just saw part 1. Safechuck seemed really disturbed by all of it and I have no trouble believing his story. Robson’s interview didn’t convince me as much. He seemed a little off, right? Like he was trying to convince us, right? I dunno, gonna check out part 2 tomorrow.
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Nr1Humanoid
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Mar 10, 2019 8:31:57 GMT -5
Watching this in small doses. Initially hard to stomach but after sleeping on it, so many illogical inconsistencies. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}The one that stands out is, in the absence of other victims, this alleged peado groomed these two gentlemen over three years each before molesting them? A horny predator would surely get his kicks sooner, and more often [\Spoiler] It's my understanding they can very, very patient. Rather than go directly for the boys they like, they go for them younger, giving themselves years to ingratiate themselves to the family, years never as much as touching the kids. By the time they strike, they are the last person in the world the family will suspect.
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Post by Ganon83 on Mar 10, 2019 9:27:29 GMT -5
You know guys, about the Simpsons pulling the Michael Jackson episode... I get it, but I really wish they didn't do it. Not because I'm a huge fan of Michael Jackson, but because of my stance on media being pulled because of changed values in society. I guess this is similar to WWE not referencing Chris Benoit, but the producers can actually pull it because he was in only one episode. I'm not saying celebrate it, but keep it in circulation with the understanding of the time and conditions in which it occured. Also that show has a lot of historical relevance to the series, as Jackson was the first star to appear on the Simpsons, paving the way for literally every guest star since whose name isn’t Al Brooks
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