Fauxnaki
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Post by Fauxnaki on Apr 27, 2019 4:34:01 GMT -5
Triple H and Stephanie have been a problem since 2000
NXT especially now is just ROH 2.0 and those guys couldn't even beat TNA in the ratings
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Post by héad.casé on Apr 27, 2019 5:24:53 GMT -5
No, I think the bigger problem is that you can teach everyone to work the WWE style down in the PC and prepare them in NXT as much as you like - it doesn’t prepare you for dealing with a 70 something year old man who can treat you like a shiny new toy one week and discard you the next.
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Post by avenger on Apr 27, 2019 6:24:50 GMT -5
This all goes back to Eric Bischoff and Monday Nitro. Pre-Nitro, there were a couple of one hour shows a week, where the matches were jobber squashes, or non-competitive matches between wrestlers at distinct places on the card - with a main event on top. The only ways you could see a card of competitive matches was by going to a live event, or one of a handful of TV specials/PPVs a year. NXT is basically a modern version of this traditional wrestling TV programming. And because NXT is on the Network, there are no pressures from advertisers or TV Networks about the content. Then Bischoff came along, he got rid of jobber squashes, and featured more competitive matches across the card, and with a PPV quality match as main event every week, and doubled the length of the main TV show. All Bischoff cared about were TV ratings. PPVs would end urging you to watch Nitro for the ending, and live events were in the toilet (The WWF house shows were still profitable, and knocking WCW's attendance and merch figures out the park). Vince used TV to promote house shows and PPVs, but needed ratings, so quickly followed suit. And once that Pandora's Box was opened, the TV networks will never allow it to be rolled back. So while, the old style/NXT only needs a small number of bookers, writing a small number of storylines, because you book for the PPV/house show loop you're promoting, and feature guys on TV in showcases, and that's basically it (I've hugely oversimplified that). Now you have five hours a week of competitive stuff and storylines that wrap up outside the PPV/house show loop, and sometimes you have a storyline that wraps up in one show. Modern wrestling TV has to be written as a TV show, NXT/old style wrestling TV was booked as a wrestling product that had a TV show. They are completely different approaches, which is why they seem so different. NXT just concluded a storyline that effectively began at the original Takeover: Chicago in May 2017 where they turned the protagonist heel in the middle, turned him face again and the lead villain got injured at the start of it and wasn't physically involved until January 2018. They faced each other one on one three times in the feuds entirety. NXT is not the problem when it comes to storytelling. The TV shows that apparently get finalised FOUR MINUTES BEFORE AIR are the problem with storytelling. Rewritten shows are obviously a major problem, but NXT has the luxury of keeping their top two guys away from each other. They barely interacted outside the Takeovers, and were barely on the same show. In NXT, Ciampa would be on one week, Gargano the next, the third week neither would be on at all, and the only people that have a say in that are the NXT bookers. On Raw/Smackdown, with the obvious exception of Brock (and USA will accept that the choice is Brock Lesnar occasionally, or not at all, and they'd rather have him occasionally), can you imagine USA being happy if over a three week cycle, they got Seth or AJ or neither? Of course not. The casuals would also slowly lose interest, and if NXT appealed to the same people that WWETV appeals to, then the WWE Network would have 2.5 million subscribers in the US, rather than 1.5 million worldwide. Something that the Raw/Smackdown bookers need to bear in mind when giving the cold debuts to NXT callups. imo? sort of? It should be well learned by now that NXT and the Main rosters are different entities with different formulas to success. The small intimate setting and smark crowds give NXT a super indy feel. Their formula for success is the indy style in ring action, but at the same time it should be telegraphed and come as no surprise when an NXT star gets called up and fizzles out on the main roster. Whole other ball game. It's more character based and who connects well with the crowd. It make sense that the NXT call ups who haven't been busts are the Shield, Joe, and Owens, and dare I say Elias. All other call ups don't really connect with the wider audience. And let's remember that Elias had huge "go away" heat with the NXT crowds, yet he's been one of the most over characters despite (because?) he barely ever wrestles. Owens had been in NXT five months, and had only had a handful of matches, Dean Ambrose debuted on NXT TV after he debuted on the main roster. Roman Reigns had wrestled just three matches on TV totalling less than seven and a half minutes. I'd agree with most of this, but Zayn isn't a good example. Zayn is horrible on the mic. Tyler Breeze is the one I'd use. He's got great charisma, is a great character heel with huge babyface potential. But saddled with a name that no-one will ever take seriously. NXT Takeovers are anticicpated because there are months in between shows. On the weekly programming, its only an hour and they don't put every one on each show. WWE HAS to fill programming with the same names over and over again. Yes they can keep people away from each other, But there are network demands. Spot on.
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Bobeddy
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Bobeddy on Apr 27, 2019 8:02:07 GMT -5
I wouldn't agree that NXT had a problem with characters or storyline. I feel if asked I could give an outline of each of the featured wrestlers personalities/character.
As for storylines, while the stories may often be simplistic, they're effective. The already mentioned Ciampa/Gargano story also encompassed Gargano's lost my streak, doubting his ability, recovering and his redemption attempt with his title shot against Almas. I think it's also worth noting that one of the most well received storylines of recent NXT was centred entirely around a wrestler wanting another wrestler to simply acknowledge him by saying his name.
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Post by abjordans on Apr 27, 2019 8:16:09 GMT -5
I don’t think that is the problem considering NXT has good stories with larger than life characters. The problem is that WWE is basicallY paid to create content and fill time, and that doesn’t lend itself to storytelling.
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Post by HMARK Center on Apr 27, 2019 12:33:18 GMT -5
NXT just concluded a storyline that effectively began at the original Takeover: Chicago in May 2017 where they turned the protagonist heel in the middle, turned him face again and the lead villain got injured at the start of it and wasn't physically involved until January 2018. They faced each other one on one three times in the feuds entirety. NXT is not the problem when it comes to storytelling. The TV shows that apparently get finalised FOUR MINUTES BEFORE AIR are the problem with storytelling. Yeah, it's the main roster that doesn't have characters and stories; the reason NXT is so well-regarded is because it DOES. That's why Takeovers are so anticipated, and why they are so well-received after they happen. Because they build characters and stories that fans can become attached to and then have good, meaningful matches at Takeovers that either supercharges those stories or pays them off. They don't merely have technically proficient matches, they first make people care about those matches. On the main roster, on the other hand, there is a meaningless cookie-cutter 20 minute promo every week that forces their top wrestlers, no matter who it is, to sound exactly like Michael Cole, using the exact same verbiage with the exact same cadence to give an extended recap of last week's ~HEAT~, no matter if they are Seth Rollins, Roman Reigns, or AJ Styles. Which will then be followed by a bunch of meaningless, if technically proficient, cookie-cutter wrestling matches that have the exact same structure, with almost all of the same moves, with the exact same dive-to-the-outside-to-cut-to-the-commercial-followed-by-the-exact-same-chinlock-when-they-return-from-commercial, and with the exact same bullshit finish that doesn't advance any semblance of a story but is just a failed attempt to try to not make someone look bad, no matter if that match is Cesaro vs Rey Mysterio or Drew McIntyre vs Seth Rollins. And then they book the same show the following week. It's why top stars on NXT so frequently flounder on the main roster. The wrestlers don't suddenly become bad in-ring workers, there is just no reason for fans to be engaged. When the wrestlers are given competent booking, they get over. When they are booked by the worst booker in wrestling history, they do not. Beat me to it. The big, dirty secret of WWE is that for a company that markets itself as "sports entertainment" that "tells stories" featuring "superstar characters", they, uh...well, pretty much don't tell stories or put a lot of work into creating characters. Instead they just kind of treat most of these wrestlers like action figures that a six year old bangs together to demonstrate "these guys are fighting!" I've seen Raw described as a three hour Popeyes Chicken commercial with wrestling tossed in to keep you around for said chicken commercials, and given how almost every wrestler has to fit into the same style and mould with regards to their promos and their match layouts it's kind of tough to argue against. Wrestling storytelling never has to be incredibly complicated; so long as you're showing your audience that there's a point A leading to a point B, then you'll at least be assuring them "you're not wasting time watching this, we're going somewhere with it", and if you can roll it all into a logical conclusion C, all the better. Obviously Raw's format can make that tough given all the hours of programming they have to make, but they don't even attempt to keep basic narrative structure in mind most of the time, so why should people care about watching the fake fighting?
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Post by Cyno on Apr 27, 2019 12:41:13 GMT -5
Also I don't watch NXT or have ever subscribed to WWE Network. I don't need the NXT comparison to "spoil" me on Raw because Raw manages to be hot garbage all on its own. It's why I've stopped watching it in favor of other shows. The problem with main roster WWE isn't the roster, as arguably it's more loaded with talent than at any other point in the company's history. The problem is garbage writing, garbage booking, and a petty control freak at the top who micromanages the entire thing and makes sure the show caters to him more than anyone else.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
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Post by TGM on Apr 27, 2019 12:47:50 GMT -5
Yes NXT wrestlers lack character. That's exactly what the problem is, Vince.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 27, 2019 12:52:50 GMT -5
NXT used to have a serious issue where everyone was given these interesting gimmicks, but those gimmicks only manifested in costumes and entrances. The rest of the time, everyone had the same character, which was "Earnest hard-working dreamer who loves wrestling." It's gotten less bad over time, but there's still a number of cases where the characters feel like window dressing.
But "the problem?" No way. Commitment to a character and acting skills aren't rewarded on the main roster.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Apr 27, 2019 14:03:28 GMT -5
The primary issue between NXT and the main roster is simply that both exist, because the one is setting up fans for disappointment in the other. If WWE wanted a training program so that their entire roster was "home-grown", then they should have kept NXT an in-house project that did not accept anyone with wrestling experience outside of WWE, and did not create tours or PPVs or even shows with audiences. Instead, NXT has taken on and promoted the world's indie darlings and given them a global platform, making them more valuable than ever to upstart companies looking to become the next WCW. It also created more fans of the indie scene than perhaps was ever intended or desired. Meanwhile, WWE has reduced its programming's quality to essentially filler content around which commercials are presented. The moment AEW hits the airwaves fully revering and respecting its product and forcing advertisers to accept their format (rather than having advertisers dictate the format as is currently happening in WWE), Vince and company will have to regroup in a way WWE hasn't needed in nearly 20 years.
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Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Working myself into a shoot
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Apr 27, 2019 14:19:51 GMT -5
NXT just concluded a storyline that effectively began at the original Takeover: Chicago in May 2017 where they turned the protagonist heel in the middle, turned him face again and the lead villain got injured at the start of it and wasn't physically involved until January 2018. They faced each other one on one three times in the feuds entirety. NXT is not the problem when it comes to storytelling. The TV shows that apparently get finalised FOUR MINUTES BEFORE AIR are the problem with storytelling. Yeah, it's the main roster that doesn't have characters and stories; the reason NXT is so well-regarded is because it DOES. That's why Takeovers are so anticipated, and why they are so well-received after they happen. Because they build characters and stories that fans can become attached to and then have good, meaningful matches at Takeovers that either supercharges those stories or pays them off. They don't merely have technically proficient matches, they first make people care about those matches. On the main roster, on the other hand, there is a meaningless cookie-cutter 20 minute promo every week that forces their top wrestlers, no matter who it is, to sound exactly like Michael Cole, using the exact same verbiage with the exact same cadence to give an extended recap of last week's ~HEAT~, no matter if they are Seth Rollins, Roman Reigns, or AJ Styles. Which will then be followed by a bunch of meaningless, if technically proficient, cookie-cutter wrestling matches that have the exact same structure, with almost all of the same moves, with the exact same dive-to-the-outside-to-cut-to-the-commercial-followed-by-the-exact-same-chinlock-when-they-return-from-commercial, and with the exact same bullshit finish that doesn't advance any semblance of a story but is just a failed attempt to try to not make someone look bad, no matter if that match is Cesaro vs Rey Mysterio or Drew McIntyre vs Seth Rollins. And then they book the same show the following week.It's why top stars on NXT so frequently flounder on the main roster. The wrestlers don't suddenly become bad in-ring workers, there is just no reason for fans to be engaged. When the wrestlers are given competent booking, they get over. When they are booked by the worst booker in wrestling history, they do not. Ah man spoiler alert!
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Hypnosis
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Post by Hypnosis on Apr 27, 2019 19:35:23 GMT -5
I've seen Raw described as a three hour Popeyes Chicken commercial with wrestling tossed in to keep you around for said chicken commercials, and given how almost every wrestler has to fit into the same style and mould with regards to their promos and their match layouts it's kind of tough to argue against. Raw writing: A squished fish patty on a bun.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Apr 27, 2019 19:52:50 GMT -5
The problem is that there’s no synergy between both of them.
Tyler Breeze was a star in nxt, but Vince probably doesn’t watch a second of nxt so he became a jobber.
Vince should actually care and take more control there, sure the quality would decrease but it would stop this disservice being done to the guys that are big in nxt but fail in the main roster, Vince should tell them who to push and who to spend resources then.
Then next time he won’t complain about the lack of stars because the responsibility would fall on him.
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Lt. Palumbo
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Post by Lt. Palumbo on Apr 27, 2019 20:04:52 GMT -5
I've thought about this recently and in a sense NXT is not currently fit for purpose. It's meant to be a Development for WWE and yet it doesn't create the types of stars WWE requires.
Sure, it's great. It's my favourite thing. But it's incredibly strange that it's a development for WWE at all.
It may have been the Viking Fiasco that started me thinking about it but really it holds true all the way back.
It's a strange disconnect.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 20:10:18 GMT -5
Just thought this was funny.
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Post by crazydom on Apr 27, 2019 20:31:07 GMT -5
The best character in the entire company is the NXT North American champion.
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Post by eJm on Apr 27, 2019 20:43:56 GMT -5
I've thought about this recently and in a sense NXT is not currently fit for purpose. It's meant to be a Development for WWE and yet it doesn't create the types of stars WWE requires. Sure, it's great. It's my favourite thing. But it's incredibly strange that it's a development for WWE at all. It may have been the Viking Fiasco that started me thinking about it but really it holds true all the way back. It's a strange disconnect. The problem is, one of the main purposes is for Vince to give HHH an opportunity to show he can run his own rosters and own shows without the pressures of TV and advertisers on them and to show he can take over the company when he’s done. Which, to that extent, NXT is a total success. But it’s not a success as developmental because it’s not being developmental which...doesn’t seem to be what the company wants sometimes? It’s baffling a bit.
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Post by toodarkmark on Apr 27, 2019 21:49:02 GMT -5
NXT creates larger then life stars.
The 73 year old out of touch megalomaniac ruins them. This is why Road Dogg walked away. This is why writers are quitting on the spot. This is why superstars with commercials and toys want out of the company.
People who don't realize Vince McMahon is the problem, deserve the product they get.
PS Takeover is always better then the main show. Mainstream people, people who dont watch wrestling agree. Then they watch Raw and think its dumb, and dont want to watch anymore.
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Post by SparkyPlugg on Apr 30, 2019 6:45:28 GMT -5
50/50 booking is the reason they’re not building stars.
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wakko
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Post by wakko on Apr 30, 2019 7:22:51 GMT -5
I find the idea that NXT is the problem hard to believe. Not everyone, but a lot of NXT talent are given characters. They do well with these characters. But if they take away everything about these characters when they are called to the main roster then that cannot be blamed on NXT. I mean to me, most of the main roster are generic create a wrestler type people. KO, Rollins, McIntyre, Lashley, Corbin, Reigns, Balor (because they dont explain the demon transformation), AJ to an extent has become bland.
Just my opinion though.
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