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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 6:59:38 GMT -5
It was a stupid joke that wouldn't have gotten a second thought if he had made it about a man. Nohing to see here. Move along. Only Paige gets to decide that, it's her the joke is aimed at and it's obviously upset her as others have spoken out about it. And there's a big difference in how men are viewed in sleeping around compared to women. I'm sure Ric Flair doesn't get messages on social media calling him a slut.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Jan 14, 2020 7:33:36 GMT -5
I think a lot of you guys are missing the point of the joke. I'm not defending it and he should apologise and I can't believe I have to type this sentence but: the joke is that she's stupid, not that she's a whore. I can't believe he'd say that in a business setting he KNEW was being recorded either. See, I thought he was calling her a drunk/drug addict or something but I guess just regular dumb works too
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ssdrivin
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Post by ssdrivin on Jan 14, 2020 7:36:13 GMT -5
At risk though I am of being considered to be defending a very unfortunate joke under very unfortunate circumstances, and as someone who is altogether familiar with the feeling of "Oh, jeez, yeah, thanks brain, you panicked and now I look like a total dick", I'm willing to offer the benefit of the doubt.
You can call it a tasteless joke, by today's standards perhaps it is, but I'd have to agree with those who've said nobody would've thought much about it if it was about one of the guys. That doesn't suddenly make it totally cool in the given context, but he did spend 20-odd years being the on-screen douchebag jackass and he's obviously been around the guys for all that time. If you talk yourself into an embarassing corner or you have to say something, anything, to continue the flow of the discussion in a public forum, sometimes stuff just falls out of your mouth even though you can feel the stupidity of it sliming all over the inside of your mouth. When you're in that situation, you can't just get all flustered and yell "wait, that wasn't what I meant, I mean, not like that! oh god, wow I'm dumb, would you excuse me, I need to go to the bathroom". Put those two things together (long-time travelling wrestler in a locker room full of 90s guys and "uh, brainfart, need to stay 'on', say something") and I could see a legitimate mistake happening. Maybe it could've even been saved, or glossed over as just a joke that died, if not for the subject of the joke being someone who's had a shit time of things and doesn't need another reason to feel bad. You could pass off "children she doesn't know she had" as either some other meaning, like stupidity (as some in this thread suggest) or "haha, isn't that a clever joke? because women have to know they're giving birth? ha... haha... ha. *cough* hah." otherwise - you'd still look like an idiot, but it would've just been a dumb failed joke, you wouldn't look like a malicious idiot instead.
As it pertains to Paige in particular, yeah, that's an incredibly unfortunate gaffe. Wrong time, wrong place, wrong person, regardless of gender. Maybe he is just that much of an arsehole, I dunno, never met the bloke, but I don't have to think too hard to imagine (whether I like him or not) a scenario where it was just a really really unlucky engage-brain-before-mouth failure and not an active attack or a whoopsie-daisy accidental spilling of his true feelings about women in wrestling.
An apology would be in order though. A private one would probably suffice, there's no need to go blowing it up and making it 100x worse. Can't imagine it made Paige feel great, so she probably does deserve one just for her personal circumstances alone, entirely besides the implication of social proclivities or the idea that such a thing is a negative trait in women (though given that he'd make the same joke about a man, I don't think that really counts).
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 14, 2020 8:07:47 GMT -5
The difference about "Oh but a GUY wouldn't have an issue"
Do guys have a long history of being shamed and made fun of for being "sluts","whores","easy"?No,that is one lesson I learned about this ,because I was on that side too at one point.
I learned that the context and history matters for the people made fun of,even if some I don't agree with.And if the guy was infertile I would have an issue,yes.
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Post by eJm on Jan 14, 2020 8:11:39 GMT -5
I feel like some of us are taking in just the joke and not the rest of the context.
He didn't just say the joke, he said the joke in public in a press junket round table in his role as executive vice president of talent relations.
That last part is important. I'm not saying any other guy saying it in any other press event would be fine but their roles aren't responsible for the talent across the roster, Performance centre trainees right to the main roster, along with hirings and firings that have to be approved by Vince. He is the go-between for talent to management.
Him making that sort of joke, intentional or not, whether he regrets it or not, pretty much deserves a public apology because he's not affecting how people think of him as a person but upper management in general for him being in that position. He also should apologise to Paige and that should come first but in a company with shareholders and putting out a family-friendly image to sponsors too...yeah, he needs to do this publicly.
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Post by PTBartman on Jan 14, 2020 8:14:33 GMT -5
Yo this year is f***ing wild Like I'm half expecting Cena to come out and say that Vince force fed him PEDs by Saturday Tuesday: Kenny Omega runs a bondage meth lab and hosts street fights. Wednesday: Mistakes were made. Jon Moxley runs the meth lab and was brawling with the Butcher. Omega is however into bondage. Thursday: FBI reports are leaked clearing Mosley as a Grand jury indicts the raccoon
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ssdrivin
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Post by ssdrivin on Jan 14, 2020 8:15:40 GMT -5
The difference about "Oh but a GUY wouldn't have an issue" Do guys have a long history of being shamed and made fun of for being "sluts","whores","easy"?No,that is one lesson I learned about this ,because I was on that side too at one point. I learned that the context and history matters for the people made fun of.And if the guy was infertile I would have an issue,yes. When it comes down to it, I don't think double standards are especially helpful. Being a fan of recreationally-inclined relationships isn't a trait which is particular to either gender, unlike certain other aspersions one could cast on a person for an intrinsic characteristic they possess. Now obviously the recipient does get to say whether they're offended, so if you're going to say anything that could be perceived as negative about someone as a joke that you don't want to turn into a whole mess then you should be pretty confident that they won't mind, but that's a whole other issue. I could see a case for getting on him about making a joke about someone who wasn't in on it, but not necessarily about the nature of the joke, as far as what might be considered an appropriate topic of jest in those circles is concerned.
Edit:
I feel like some of us are taking in just the joke and not the rest of the context. He didn't just say the joke, he said the joke in public in a press junket round table in his role as executive vice president of talent relations. That last part is important. I'm not saying any other guy saying it in any other press event would be fine but their roles aren't responsible for the talent across the roster, Performance centre trainees right to the main roster, along with hirings and firings that have to be approved by Vince. He is the go-between for talent to management. Him making that sort of joke, intentional or not, whether he regrets it or not, pretty much deserves a public apology because he's not affecting how people think of him as a person but upper management in general for him being in that position. He also should apologise to Paige and that should come first but in a company with shareholders and putting out a family-friendly image to sponsors too...yeah, he needs to do this publicly.
I mean, I agree someone in that position shouldn't be making jokes like that about anybody, especially in public, even moreso at a recorded event, but that's the part I could understand in terms of "whoops, my brain leaked". Dumb thing to say in that scenario (regardless of whether it's acceptable at all, again that's very subjective, as humour usually is), definitely, totally inappropriate. But nobody's absolutely 100% perfect, and as humans we do dumb stuff sometimes. I think if there were to be a public apology, it would be best given after speaking to Paige first, and the two would not necessarily share the same depth, content, or sincerity (because we all know corporate apologies quite often come across as hollow, not least from WWE).
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 14, 2020 8:16:28 GMT -5
Tuesday: Kenny Omega runs a bondage meth lab and hosts street fights. Wednesday: Mistakes were made. Jon Moxley runs the meth lab and was brawling with the Butcher. Omega is however into bondage. Thursday: FBI reports are leaked clearing Mosley as a Grand jury indicts the raccoon Friday: The raccoon is actually revealed to be the legal owner of WWE, ousting the entire McMahon family and sending the entire wrestling industry into a state of chaos, other than the usual Reigns v Corbin feud segment on that night’s SmackDown being presented to the usual silent indifference and internal rage
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Post by PTBartman on Jan 14, 2020 8:24:54 GMT -5
Trips still makes comments like he's back in the 90's in the Kliq about people. You can put a suit and tie on the guy but the fact of the matter is that inane frat boy mentality he had for decades isn't just suddenly going to leave him. And that's a really bad sign for people who are already fed up with that shit from the guy in charge now, coming from the guy set to take charge in the event Vince can't anymore. Also shocked The Rock didn't come down on HHH for that, he's very close to Paige and made the movie about her entire run, someone with his pull would shake them if he criticized them for that shit comment. I think The Rock would have more class than to do it publicly. Wouldn’t be surprised if he placed a phone call privately that “melted a few wires” (I know there aren’t a lot of wires anymore). Same with Steph, but I’d would love to be a fly on the wall go THAT conversation.
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Post by eJm on Jan 14, 2020 8:25:07 GMT -5
I mean, I agree someone in that position shouldn't be making jokes like that about anybody, especially in public, even moreso at a recorded event, but that's the part I could understand in terms of "whoops, my brain leaked". Dumb thing to say in that scenario (regardless of whether it's acceptable at all, again that's very subjective, as humour usually is), definitely, totally inappropriate. But nobody's absolutely 100% perfect, and as humans we do dumb stuff sometimes. I think if there were to be a public apology, it would be best given after speaking to Paige first, and the two would not necessarily share the same depth, content, or sincerity (because we all know corporate apologies quite often come across as hollow, not least from WWE).
None of that matters when you're in a senior position with the responsibility he has. It just doesn't. It was still made and perceived as said as someone from management and the company in general. And even if it isn't shallow, the fact that something would come out from it is better than just leaving it internally. EDIT: It's leading by example, basically. If it slides from up top, basically says it's fine to do in lower roles since the perception is management is cool with it. Fair or not, that's the responsibility he has now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 8:29:00 GMT -5
Devils advocate here.
I think it was a harmless joke when he realized Paige didn’t have kids like Edge.
It’s impossible for a woman to not know she has kids.... that’s the joke.
I don’t think there’s any malice in this.
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Post by PTBartman on Jan 14, 2020 8:29:25 GMT -5
The difference about "Oh but a GUY wouldn't have an issue" Do guys have a long history of being shamed and made fun of for being "sluts","whores","easy"?No,that is one lesson I learned about this ,because I was on that side too at one point. I learned that the context and history matters for the people made fun of,even if some I don't agree with.And if the guy was infertile I would have an issue,yes. No, but there are many jokes, cliches, stories about men abandoning their responsibilities and that’s how I might have taken it if it were said about a male.
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Jan 14, 2020 8:35:24 GMT -5
The difference about "Oh but a GUY wouldn't have an issue" Do guys have a long history of being shamed and made fun of for being "sluts","whores","easy"?No,that is one lesson I learned about this ,because I was on that side too at one point. Do Women generally have a high opinion of Dudes who've had sex with a lot of partners? I guess the equivalent terms for guys "Womanizer" "Dog" "Player" "_____ has a toxic sense of masculinity that causes him to just see Women as sex objects...' Guys are probably less likely to call out other dudes for their sexual activity unless they're having sex with a bunch of "unattractive" Ladies Hell we pretty regularly clown Marty Janetty on this board for his intoxicated lechery Either way. That was a completely unforced error on H's part
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Post by brown bricks on Jan 14, 2020 8:37:53 GMT -5
This is quickly/uncomfortably evolving into an MRA thread.
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ssdrivin
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Post by ssdrivin on Jan 14, 2020 8:40:18 GMT -5
I mean, I agree someone in that position shouldn't be making jokes like that about anybody, especially in public, even moreso at a recorded event, but that's the part I could understand in terms of "whoops, my brain leaked". Dumb thing to say in that scenario (regardless of whether it's acceptable at all, again that's very subjective, as humour usually is), definitely, totally inappropriate. But nobody's absolutely 100% perfect, and as humans we do dumb stuff sometimes. I think if there were to be a public apology, it would be best given after speaking to Paige first, and the two would not necessarily share the same depth, content, or sincerity (because we all know corporate apologies quite often come across as hollow, not least from WWE).
None of that matters when you're in a senior position with the responsibility he has. It just doesn't. It was still made and perceived as said as someone from management and the company in general. And even if it isn't shallow, the fact that something would come out from it is better than just leaving it internally. EDIT: It's leading by example, basically. If it slides from up top, basically says it's fine to do in lower roles since the perception is management is cool with it. Fair or not, that's the responsibility he has now.
Sure, and I get that, I don't think it's unreasonable for anybody in this situation or any other to ask some pretty pointed questions about a high ranking executive and talent manager who makes statements like that. But it doesn't matter whether you wear a fancy suit or a special patterned tie, whether you drive a fancy company car, what kind of pension you might be due, at the end of the day he's still a human, and humans sometimes accidentally do dumb stuff. He deserves to be told it was a dumb thing to say, or worse as far as Paige is concerned, but putting your foot in it doesn't mean you're necessarily a totally malicious arsehole who set out to offend, or even to put you or your company across in a bad light. It should be avoided, naturally, for all kinds of reasons. But you can make an honest mistake, it happens, we all do it at some point or another.
Regarding apologies, I can see why you'd advocate for a public apology, I do see the logic in that, as you say he does represent the company. But given that it's a sensitive matter that concerns someone else, and it's a bit of a touchy subject in other ways too, I could also see an argument for making an apology very quietly or making only a private apology. In terms of people being offended, it's only Paige that matters. If she'd rather he just apologise to her, shut up, and say no more about it, and move on... well then fair enough. That, perhaps, rather than making a song and dance about it and causing the discussion to linger and thrust her personal life back into the spotlight again.
That's just my perspective on things though, obviously, I have no idea what those actually involved think or would wish to happen or not happen.
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Post by I'm Team Bayley and Indi on Jan 14, 2020 8:47:10 GMT -5
so he made a joke about Paige having children she doesn't know about, what's the big deal?
Oh yeah she lost her baby when she was 18
She also had surgery to remove a cyst which means she may never have children
Can't be great hearing your boss joke about you like that
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 14, 2020 9:28:47 GMT -5
The difference about "Oh but a GUY wouldn't have an issue" Do guys have a long history of being shamed and made fun of for being "sluts","whores","easy"?No,that is one lesson I learned about this ,because I was on that side too at one point. I learned that the context and history matters for the people made fun of,even if some I don't agree with.And if the guy was infertile I would have an issue,yes. No, but there are many jokes, cliches, stories about men abandoning their responsibilities and that’s how I might have taken it if it were said about a male. Yeh,It still would not be an insulting joke.It could be taken that way depending of the context and the person.But people usually see as"what a player,he gets laid a lot".
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Post by eJm on Jan 14, 2020 9:47:54 GMT -5
None of that matters when you're in a senior position with the responsibility he has. It just doesn't. It was still made and perceived as said as someone from management and the company in general. And even if it isn't shallow, the fact that something would come out from it is better than just leaving it internally. EDIT: It's leading by example, basically. If it slides from up top, basically says it's fine to do in lower roles since the perception is management is cool with it. Fair or not, that's the responsibility he has now. Sure, and I get that, I don't think it's unreasonable for anybody in this situation or any other to ask some pretty pointed questions about a high ranking executive and talent manager who makes statements like that. But it doesn't matter whether you wear a fancy suit or a special patterned tie, whether you drive a fancy company car, what kind of pension you might be due, at the end of the day he's still a human, and humans sometimes accidentally do dumb stuff. He deserves to be told it was a dumb thing to say, or worse as far as Paige is concerned, but putting your foot in it doesn't mean you're necessarily a totally malicious arsehole who set out to offend, or even to put you or your company across in a bad light. It should be avoided, naturally, for all kinds of reasons. But you can make an honest mistake, it happens, we all do it at some point or another. I never said he wasn't a malicious asshole for it but if they don't do anything or put out something, it does put the company in a bad light. Here's the easiest example I can give. If I were to insult someone on here on this forum and joked about something they got the courage to admit to, that would be bad enough. But me as a mod, that comes with its own responsibilities. There was a process to get me on board, a time when I had to learn what was acceptable and what wasn't, how to deal with different stuff that goes on etc. I'm not the most important person but I am someone with responsibility. So if I didn't come out and say that was wrong to people in that thread as well as that person or if the people higher up didn't say anything, that basically says to them and others that this is fine to do because a mod did it. That if someone else did it, we shouldn't put you in check because, hey, the mods didn't do anything before so what's the difference now? And I'm not saying it's a slippery slope and leads to bad shit later on but that leaves a perception in people's minds about this place, as small as it is. And if I didn't say anything, I'd feel personally responsible for that and hate it. HHH's position isn't that different. And you're right, we're all human and make mistakes but for the sake of his position, the perception it gives and even the smallest ramifications fans or even the people who work with me worried that this is a slipping of the mask...the least he can do is admit what he said was wrong.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 14, 2020 9:52:03 GMT -5
Sure, and I get that, I don't think it's unreasonable for anybody in this situation or any other to ask some pretty pointed questions about a high ranking executive and talent manager who makes statements like that. But it doesn't matter whether you wear a fancy suit or a special patterned tie, whether you drive a fancy company car, what kind of pension you might be due, at the end of the day he's still a human, and humans sometimes accidentally do dumb stuff. He deserves to be told it was a dumb thing to say, or worse as far as Paige is concerned, but putting your foot in it doesn't mean you're necessarily a totally malicious arsehole who set out to offend, or even to put you or your company across in a bad light. It should be avoided, naturally, for all kinds of reasons. But you can make an honest mistake, it happens, we all do it at some point or another. I never said he wasn't a malicious asshole for it but if they don't do anything or put out something, it does put the company in a bad light. Here's the easiest example I can give. If I were to insult someone on here on this forum and joked about something they got the courage to admit to, that would be bad enough. But me as a mod, that comes with its own responsibilities. There was a process to get me on board, a time when I had to learn what was acceptable and what wasn't, how to deal with different stuff that goes on etc. I'm not the most important person but I am someone with responsibility. So if I didn't come out and say that was wrong to people in that thread as well as that person or if the people higher up didn't say anything, that basically says to them and others that this is fine to do because a mod did it. That if someone else did it, we shouldn't put you in check because, hey, the mods didn't do anything before so what's the difference now? And I'm not saying it's a slippery slope and leads to bad shit later on but that leaves a perception in people's minds about this place, as small as it is. And if I didn't say anything, I'd feel personally responsible for that and hate it. HHH's position isn't that different. And you're right, we're all human and make mistakes but for the sake of his position, the perception it gives and even the smallest ramifications fans or even the people who work with me worried that this is a slipping of the mask...the least he can do is admit what he said was wrong. So I expect you are gonna apologize about when you called me a dinglehead.
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Post by eJm on Jan 14, 2020 9:54:21 GMT -5
I never said he wasn't a malicious asshole for it but if they don't do anything or put out something, it does put the company in a bad light. Here's the easiest example I can give. If I were to insult someone on here on this forum and joked about something they got the courage to admit to, that would be bad enough. But me as a mod, that comes with its own responsibilities. There was a process to get me on board, a time when I had to learn what was acceptable and what wasn't, how to deal with different stuff that goes on etc. I'm not the most important person but I am someone with responsibility. So if I didn't come out and say that was wrong to people in that thread as well as that person or if the people higher up didn't say anything, that basically says to them and others that this is fine to do because a mod did it. That if someone else did it, we shouldn't put you in check because, hey, the mods didn't do anything before so what's the difference now? And I'm not saying it's a slippery slope and leads to bad shit later on but that leaves a perception in people's minds about this place, as small as it is. And if I didn't say anything, I'd feel personally responsible for that and hate it. HHH's position isn't that different. And you're right, we're all human and make mistakes but for the sake of his position, the perception it gives and even the smallest ramifications fans or even the people who work with me worried that this is a slipping of the mask...the least he can do is admit what he said was wrong. So I expect you are gonna apologize about when you called me a dinglehead. Of course. I'm sorry for calling you a dinglehead... I meant to call you a dingle doofus.
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