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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jun 8, 2020 23:23:37 GMT -5
We definitely don't need any more OP threads, and I mean like ever again. With that said though, am kinda surprised Charlotte never got one when you consider she's been a problem much longer than Becky ever was. OP heels are very very different from OP faces. I just find it baffling that people were insisting this would all end with Charlotte beating both Io and Ripley because Charlotte's so overpowered, and people were like "no, this is about making Io face and champ" and then it happens, and people are like "Charlotte's so overpowered." I dunno if it's the same individuals saying both of those things, but, it really does just seem like every time she loses, people insist she never loses.
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metylerca
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Post by metylerca on Jun 8, 2020 23:23:53 GMT -5
Charlotte is legitimately my favorite WWE talent today. She's just so damn crisp and has presence. That said, it's been a while since a feud of hers went beyond "Charlotte wins a lot, it's too overbearing and I am here to take over her throne." Give us a storyline with teeth already.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 8, 2020 23:36:35 GMT -5
Charlotte Flair is mad talented and she can put on amazing matches, but I don't like watching good matches and fretting about the story actively trying to make me mad at it. That's not enjoyable. Charlotte Flair going off the deep end when she lost her title to Becky was the most interesting se'd ever been because her character finally had some growth and now she's just boringly there again, always in front of everything, never not up in the top of one division or another with no break. Which is another issue; even if I could jive with the meta heel nonsense that doesn't bother giving her an itneresting character who does things to get heat as a character instead of as a metastory element, it doesn't work literally year-round, for several years running. That's not engaging, that's not interesting. It's the exhausting beating-over-the-head of the same story beat ad nauseum, making people fret that they'll book Charlotte poorly again just so that sometimes they have Charlotte take a clean loss.
She's not growing as a character, and she's actively regressed from an interesting direction. The broken ace did her well, the dominant heel ace bit doesn't work when it's going on for years. WWE is too much programming that's too repetitive. Charlotte's booking is overexposed and it's dragging down every moment she spends on screen. I like matches where I'm invested in the story of it, not matches where I'm sitting there thinking "Will they book Charlotte to go over?" and the insistence of the story to lean on that is I think a horrible failing of WWE's entire creative process. She's become the avatar of how the company wants to book to make its fans mad. It's stupid.
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Post by Starshine on Jun 8, 2020 23:40:20 GMT -5
We definitely don't need any more OP threads, and I mean like ever again. With that said though, am kinda surprised Charlotte never got one when you consider she's been a problem much longer than Becky ever was. OP heels are very very different from OP faces. I just find it baffling that people were insisting this would all end with Charlotte beating both Io and Ripley because Charlotte's so overpowered, and people were like "no, this is about making Io face and champ" and then it happens, and people are like "Charlotte's so overpowered." I dunno if it's the same individuals saying both of those things, but, it really does just seem like every time she loses, people insist she never loses. It's probably worked out for Io, but what did Rhea get out of it? She drops the belt to Charlotte and that's kind of it. Nothing was really gained by the whole angle. It just seemed like another step in the ladder for Charlotte to reach title win #16. Even if she took the pin you might argue she was "doing the job" for the new champion, while also protecting Rhea who could be set up as the next challenger. The way it went down though, Io looks a little more flukey considering Charlotte had the match won at that point, and she didn't actually lose the match. But then also going back to Rhea in that scenario, how much worse does she look again for all of this? She was basically beaten twice despite being a dominant champion a few months ago. So what was the point of it all when no one comes out looking stronger for it? I don't like the OP argument, because it became a flip-floppy, meaningless term that doesn't have any sort of consistent qualitative basis of argument. The problem with Charlotte isn't that she doesn't lose enough, it's about her booking, and the way she tends to stifle things around her. Which wouldn't be so much of a problem if she were a money drawing star. But she tended to lose viewers during her NXT segments, which points to the notion that she's not a star. I'm not questioning her wrestling ability, she's top tier in that regard. But ability doesn't matter when she's turning people off the product with the way they over-saturate the shows with her. That's why she's a problem, it's not her fault, but it's where things are right now. It's the same argument for why Triple H was a problem for the majority of the 2000's.
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Post by häšhtå.gdālėÿ on Jun 8, 2020 23:41:40 GMT -5
I can’t wrap my head around Charlotte being an elite talent. She’s a good wrestler. That’s it for me. Her character and promo work are goddamn atrocious.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jun 8, 2020 23:49:57 GMT -5
I’ve said this before... WWE don’t want this wishy-washy “Ooh, I like the heel, they’re doing such great heel work” stuff where you’re almost likely to start cheering for them depending on the opponent. They want you to HATE THE C***S, damn the damage it might do, and the easier it is for them to get you to that point, the more and more they’re gonna do it because the creative is lazy, we know this. And then you add the years of awareness of their booking tropes and formed fan narratives based on the long-term presentation of the show... “WWE likes wrestlers with family heritage”, “WWE likes wrestlers with this specific look”, “WWE hates foreigners”, that kind of thing. All Charlotte Flair has to do is exist and win matches (doesn’t even matter if they weren’t clean, like tonight), and it sends people into a F***ING RAGE. And the f***ed up thing is, she IS legit one of the best wrestlers in the division. She SHOULD be pushed. But she’s just gotten so overexposed that all that many seem to her want to do now is be a jobber and either just lose forever or not show up at all. Well, that's because these WWE writers suck at their jobs. It's not even about "informed narrative" or presentation, it's just bad writing. It doesn't matter if the fans think the heel is utterly fabulous- like I always say, all faces and all heels should be entertaining. That said, Asuka and Flair's actual match was great. The problem is that the match shouldn't have been booked in the first place, because neither wrestler should be losing right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 23:58:52 GMT -5
I said last night in the Take Over thread she’s the worst parts of Cena, Reigns, and Triple H rolled into one.
It wouldn’t be so bad if the pecking order of the womans roster wasn’t so terrible.
Four horsewomen Asuka Blonde/Monster of the month Nattie (for some reason) Everyone else.
Yeah it will be great when Asuka finally gets her win over Charlotte but how much crap do we have to go through to get there.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 9, 2020 0:05:00 GMT -5
I can’t wrap my head around Charlotte being an elite talent. She’s a good wrestler. That’s it for me. Her character and promo work are goddamn atrocious. She's the one of the best in-ring talents in the division if not all women's wrestling as a whole, but yeah, her promos and character work are cringe. Which wouldn't be a problem if they didn't give her the mic so often.
So keeping that in mind, she is, to quote Triple H, a B+ player. If she could emote better than a malfunctioning robot, it'd put her into elite territory.
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Post by Heartbreaker on Jun 9, 2020 0:09:48 GMT -5
I like Charlotte, but she is overpushed. Though I will say I'm not bothered by her whole 16 reigns thing, I'm more bothered by WWE's sudden obsession with championship records in the past couple of years because sometimes it comes across as being petty. Like let's say Charlotte leaves in a few years and has a falling out/whatever, you know they are gonna go hardcore with giving somebody else 17 reigns.
But seriously, if you're that tired of Charlotte, maybe don't watch her segments... but it seems a lot of people have this mentality that they HAVE to watch every single week. Ya don't.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Jun 9, 2020 0:23:18 GMT -5
I can’t believe how much and how thoroughly she dominated Asuka tonight. You’d think Charlotte was the champion and Asuka was some random jobber with how one sided that match was.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Jun 9, 2020 0:24:39 GMT -5
I like Charlotte, but she is overpushed. Though I will say I'm not bothered by her whole 16 reigns thing, I'm more bothered by WWE's sudden obsession with championship records in the past couple of years because sometimes it comes across as being petty. Like let's say Charlotte leaves in a few years and has a falling out/whatever, you know they are gonna go hardcore with giving somebody else 17 reigns. But seriously, if you're that tired of Charlotte, maybe don't watch her segments... but it seems a lot of people have this mentality that they HAVE to watch every single week. Ya don't. Well, I kind of only want to watch the Asuka segments and now Charlotte’s involved in those. I can’t exactly avoid her now.
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Post by Heartbreaker on Jun 9, 2020 0:46:38 GMT -5
I like Charlotte, but she is overpushed. Though I will say I'm not bothered by her whole 16 reigns thing, I'm more bothered by WWE's sudden obsession with championship records in the past couple of years because sometimes it comes across as being petty. Like let's say Charlotte leaves in a few years and has a falling out/whatever, you know they are gonna go hardcore with giving somebody else 17 reigns. But seriously, if you're that tired of Charlotte, maybe don't watch her segments... but it seems a lot of people have this mentality that they HAVE to watch every single week. Ya don't. Well, I kind of only want to watch the Asuka segments and now Charlotte’s involved in those. I can’t exactly avoid her now. That's fair. Unfortunately you'll have to wait until they are on separate brands, but how long do brands last these days?
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Jun 9, 2020 1:01:43 GMT -5
I can't stand Charlotte anymore, she is a detriment to everyone around her. Her talent is unquestionable, her booking is not her fault. It's not Charlotte's fault that I don't want to watch Charlotte.
Granted I'm not watching any WWE right now, it makes me feel gross because of the firings.
I miss Daniel Bryan and Billie Kay, man.
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Post by Totorob101 on Jun 9, 2020 1:05:01 GMT -5
Charlotte is a very special talent and is the complete package so she should always be involved around the top. Its not her fault a lot of the other women cant get to her level in ring or personality wise though the womens division on Raw is awful, apart from asuka and nia there isnt anyone else near Charlotte.
Liv is still very young, Shayna has flopped, Ruby is a loser, Kairi is a jobber and i cant even remembee the rest! Until someone proves to be as good as her, Charlotte will be around for a long time to come!
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 9, 2020 1:07:04 GMT -5
Charlotte is a very special talent and is the complete package so she should always be involved around the top. Its not her fault a lot of the other women cant get to her level in ring or personality wise though the womens division on Raw is awful, apart from asuka and nia there isnt anyone else near Charlotte. Liv is still very young, Shayna has flopped, Ruby is a loser, Kairi is a jobber and i cant even remembee the rest! Until someone proves to be as good as her, Charlotte will be around for a long time to come! Shayna flopping, Ruby being "a loser", and Kairi being "a jobber" and you "not being able to remember the rest" isn't their faults, and isn't them "Being unable to match the ability of Charlotte Flair, it is booking, full stop. And Nia isn't anywhere near any of them, she's proven that the last few weeks especially.
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Post by Dub H on Jun 9, 2020 1:10:41 GMT -5
I can’t wrap my head around Charlotte being an elite talent. She’s a good wrestler. That’s it for me. Her character and promo work are goddamn atrocious. She's the one of the best in-ring talents in the division if not all women's wrestling as a whole, but yeah, her promos and character work are cringe. Which wouldn't be a problem if they didn't give her the mic so often. So keeping that in mind, she is, to quote Triple H, a B+ player. If she could emote better than a malfunctioning robot, it'd put her into elite territory.
What stops charlotte from ebing one of the absolute best women in the ring is that she insists on using some moves that just don't look good at all.Which just stands out so much more when everything else she does is really good. That plus the fact I have yet to see her emote well or cut a good promo really stop me from thinking she is that good
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Jun 9, 2020 1:11:26 GMT -5
I said last night in the Take Over thread she’s the worst parts of Cena, Reigns, and Triple H rolled into one. It wouldn’t be so bad if the pecking order of the womans roster wasn’t so terrible. Four horsewomen Asuka Blonde/Monster of the month Nattie (for some reason) Everyone else. Yeah it will be great when Asuka finally gets her win over Charlotte but how much crap do we have to go through to get there. It's frustrating because they have so many new fresh young fresh talents who have a lot of upside with Lacey, Bianca, Sonya, Mandy, and Liv and yet they don't do anything with them while the same people that have been getting pushed for years are still hogging all the top spots. I mean I guess Sonya and Mandy's program is getting a lot of TV time but neither one is being pushed or treated as a serious contender. Mandy loses all the time and Sonya can only beat Mandy but loses when she fights anyone else like last Friday. Lacey is pushed but her pushes never go anywhere as they book her to lose every big match she's in. Liv and Bianca can't even get on TV. It seems like after Becky got pregnant instead of elevating some different people their solution was pushing Charlotte even more which I didn't think was possible. Then after her you've got Bayley, Sasha, Nia, Asuka, and Alexa (and I guess by association Nikki) as the most featured women on TV and all of those women have been upper card players for the last three or four years. I mean at least with Alexa changing her alignment and putting her in a tag team has freshened her act up and Asuka is always entertaining but the other four are just a drag at this point. It's just getting very old. Maybe after Backlash when the storylines are able to reset some of those fresher talents I mentioned earlier will start getting elevated and put into programs but I'm not holding my breath.
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Post by Dub H on Jun 9, 2020 1:12:40 GMT -5
Charlotte is a very special talent and is the complete package so she should always be involved around the top. Its not her fault a lot of the other women cant get to her level in ring or personality wise though the womens division on Raw is awful, apart from asuka and nia there isnt anyone else near Charlotte. Liv is still very young, Shayna has flopped, Ruby is a loser, Kairi is a jobber and i cant even remembee the rest! Until someone proves to be as good as her, Charlotte will be around for a long time to come! Shayna flopping, Ruby being "a loser", and Kairi being "a jobber" and you "not being able to remember the rest" isn't their faults, and isn't them "Being unable to match the ability of Charlotte Flair, it is booking, full stop. And Nia isn't anywhere near any of them, she's proven that the last few weeks especially. And it is Charlotte's job as the one on top to make these talents look like big deals,which she doesn't(not blaming her on this one)
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Post by Long A, Short A on Jun 9, 2020 1:25:26 GMT -5
I've never really been here for the woman, and the way Charlette is formaly and informally doesn't help matters. I think Charlette's work doesn't track outside her supporters.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jun 9, 2020 1:34:56 GMT -5
I said last night in the Take Over thread she’s the worst parts of Cena, Reigns, and Triple H rolled into one. Wait, Charlotte was in Doolittle? Because that was the man's career low point.
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