Malibu Albino
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Post by Malibu Albino on Jul 18, 2020 12:13:04 GMT -5
Yeah this feels a lot like the problems with the women’s division. Where it feels like they’re letting it sort of fall by the wayside because they believe they can get people from other promotions when their contracts are up. The problem is you can’t wait for people to become available because things might change.
The perfect example is Tessa, a performer they were definitely eyeing when her contract with Impact was up but now is probably not someone they want to work with. Jay Lethal is another example of someone they wanted who probably is out now.
With that said, who are some diverse folks on the indies that people think should be signed? I don’t have my finger on the pulse but I’d love to keep an eye out for potential stars.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 18, 2020 12:18:18 GMT -5
Out of curiosity, what black AEW talent do you think should be main eventing right now? Scorpio Sky isn't doing it for me. Sonny Kiss is a good talent but never a main eventer. In WWE, you have guys like Ricochet, Keith Lee, Lashley, etc. All of these have big star power and I could see them in the main event. What he is essentially saying is "There's no black main eventers!"... Well, maybe that's cause they are not good enough. You can't be putting everything down to race. Racism only dies when you stop dividing people into categories. Scorpio Sky is a man, just like Cody Rhodes is a man. Why people insist on separating them while coming out with comments like this is only keeping this prejudice and division alive. I'm not saying ignore history. I'm not saying racism is dead. I'm just saying, this idea has to change in order to move forward and get the equality they should have. That doesn't mean "Give this guy an opportunity because of his skin color, everyone else is white!"... It means "Give this guy an opportunity because he has earned it." Its AEW's job to push them. Darby was a complete unknown to a national audience until AEW. So if they can do that for him why not to a POC talent? The token "look good in defeat, so we can forget about them" is starting to annoy me about AEW. In the main event scene can anyone name a POC talent? Because I sure cant (maybe Scorpio Sky.) I've played wait and see with AEW for a bit but this is pretty glaring.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 18, 2020 12:21:33 GMT -5
I took a look at the Summerslam 1992 card as a reference point since that will be on FS1 soon. There were a few minority wrestlers on the card, but not that many. Papa Shango wrestled a dark match vs. Tito Santana. Tatanka was in another dark match. But on the actual PPV card you had Virgil (who got squashed by Nailz) and Kamala. That's like 18/20 wrestlers being white (90%). That isn't counting managers. Let me look at Summerslam 1999 for another comparison. I counted all of 3 minorities on the PPV card (D'Lo, Faarooq, Rock) out of 23 total wrestlers. That's about 87% white guys. Curiously enough a show like WM 3 actually had quite a bit more diversity to it: Muraco (native Hawaiian), Haiti Kid, Little Beaver, and Little Tokyo in the wacky midget match, JYD, Tito Santana, Butch Reed and Koko Ware, Steamboat (part Japanese), Iron Sheik. My point is that wrestling has largely been this white guy thing for a long time. That era is what guys like Cody (or even Tony Khan) grew up with. Omega not so much, so you see more diversity with his signings. There are a few black guys on AEW Dark that are green as grass but have potential. Here is some food for thought though: Is signing more women or minorities going to lead to AEW having far more success? WWE is pushing women on a big level and has a lot of diversity among its current titleholders....and is getting record low ratings. I think smarks on message boards tend to forget that the biggest audience for wrestling historically is a bunch of rednecks, which isn't an audience that is terribly interested in any of this, so they quit watching. So who replaces that audience? No one really. I wouldnt cater to those racist hillbillies. Man, if a company puts more minorities in a position to potentially main event I'd love it. There's a lot of minority talent kn the indie scene they could sign and pull off a Darby Allin/Orange Cassidy with
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 12:35:36 GMT -5
I'll be honest. As a black man that's one thing that turns me away from AEW. It feels like that year in school where you're one of the only 2 black kids in a 23 person class. Yeah they have talent, yeah they've got dope matches but I just don't feel anything that's really "there" for me personally. I think it's dope when Sonny or Scorpio get a shot but I always think they'll be hit with that "hey you did good kid but that's it" thing.
WWE and NXT on the other hand, say we arent counting Kofi and Keith Lee. You got New Day who get highlighted when they weren't champions, got Ricochet who was highlighted even when he lost, got Naomi, there's Lashley, Sasha is Sasha, we can go further back and look at Mark Henry even. Yeah, WWE hasn't always been the most diverse place but they're doing a way better job than AEW is right now.
I'm just not feeling it.
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Post by Viking Hall on Jul 18, 2020 12:36:12 GMT -5
Yeah, not seeing the issue here. The company is owned by an ethnically Asian guy, their executives include a black woman, of the first champions in the entire company, two of the four weren't white, they've since gone on to crown a Native American as a Champion as well as another Japanese talent and off the top of my head have probably given as many, if not more non-white talent title shots across the four divisions as they have white talent. Okay, currently there's more white wrestlers signed than non-white wrestlers, but they certainly haven't shown any prejudice when it comes to promote the people of colour that they have on board already.
Edit: Of the 35 Title matches so far in AEW, 22 have included at least one (and on many occasions, multiple) non-white talent.
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Post by eJm on Jul 18, 2020 12:39:08 GMT -5
WWE and NXT on the other hand, say we arent counting Kofi and Keith Lee. You got New Day who get highlighted when they weren't champions, got Ricochet who was highlighted even when he lost, got Naomi, there's Lashley, Sasha is Sasha, we can go further back and look at Mark Henry even. Yeah, WWE hasn't always been the most diverse place but they're doing a way better job than AEW is right now. And right now, honestly, yeah, most people regardless are going to go to WWE. That doesn't excuse the fact there's an untapped scene out there but for almost a decade, there was the indies, TNA (in whatever form it came to) and WWE. So any new promotion has something to prove with that. Now whether they're treating them well is a separate topic completely and the fact, for example, they capitalized zero percent from Bianca's main roster debut in the goddamn Royal Rumble is...yeah, that still feels insane to me.
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Post by autisticgeordie on Jul 18, 2020 12:40:54 GMT -5
WWE and NXT on the other hand, say we arent counting Kofi and Keith Lee. You got New Day who get highlighted when they weren't champions, got Ricochet who was highlighted even when he lost, got Naomi, there's Lashley, Sasha is Sasha, we can go further back and look at Mark Henry even. Yeah, WWE hasn't always been the most diverse place but they're doing a way better job than AEW is right now. And right now, honestly, yeah, most people regardless are going to go to WWE. That doesn't excuse the fact there's an untapped scene out there but for almost a decade, there was the indies, TNA (in whatever form it came to) and WWE. So any new promotion has something to prove with that. Now whether they're treating them well is a separate topic completely and the fact, for example, they capitalized zero percent from Bianca's main roster debut in the goddamn Royal Rumble is...yeah, that still feels insane to me. I don't know how they haven't pushed Bianca to the moon; honestly. She's a f***ing megastar.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 18, 2020 12:48:00 GMT -5
Yeah, not seeing the issue here. The company is owned by an ethnically Asian guy, their executives include a black woman, of the first champions in the entire company, two of the four weren't white, they've since gone on to crown a Native American as a Champion as well as another Japanese talent and off the top of my head have probably given as many, if not more non-white talent title shots across the four divisions as they have white talent. Okay, currently there's more white wrestlers signed than non-white wrestlers, but they certainly haven't shown any prejudice when it comes to promote the people of colour that they have on board already. Edit: Of the 35 Title matches so far in AEW, 22 have included at least one (and on many occasions, multiple) non-white talent. With those matches how many times has a POC won? The only ones I can think of is the women's division which would skew that statistic. No one is claiming AEW is racist, people just want to see more POC in the main event scene. They're kinda hinting at Scorpio Sky so maybe they can go with that
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Post by Fake Jesus on Jul 18, 2020 12:50:11 GMT -5
I've never really got the need to see people who "represent" you on TV. I'm not American, there's no one on AEW who's like me or knows my experiences, and it's just not something I ever factor into my viewing for anything. I approach wrestling and all forms of art for engaging stories and, more so in higher art, to expand my horizons. I suppose some people have a need to identify with the characters they're watching, though.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 18, 2020 12:52:25 GMT -5
I've never really got the need to see people who "represent" you on TV. I'm not American, there's no one on AEW who's like me or knows my experiences, and it's just not something I ever factor into my viewing for anything. I approach wrestling and all forms of art for engaging stories and, more so in higher art, to expand my horizons. I suppose some people have a need to identify with the characters they're watching, though. I think the biggest problem is how so-called "National" companies have marginalized minority wrestlers so much, so when a company comes and tries to challenge the status quo and is failing at it. It's something that should be noted
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Post by Viking Hall on Jul 18, 2020 12:52:55 GMT -5
Yeah, not seeing the issue here. The company is owned by an ethnically Asian guy, their executives include a black woman, of the first champions in the entire company, two of the four weren't white, they've since gone on to crown a Native American as a Champion as well as another Japanese talent and off the top of my head have probably given as many, if not more non-white talent title shots across the four divisions as they have white talent. Okay, currently there's more white wrestlers signed than non-white wrestlers, but they certainly haven't shown any prejudice when it comes to promote the people of colour that they have on board already. Edit: Of the 35 Title matches so far in AEW, 22 have included at least one (and on many occasions, multiple) non-white talent. With those matches how many times has a POC won? The only ones I can think of is the women's division which would skew that statistic. No one is claiming AEW is racist, people just want to see more POC in the main event scene. They're kinda hinting at Scorpio Sky so maybe they can go with that Scorpio Sky was one half of the inaugural Tag Team champions, so again, including the women, more than white talent.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 18, 2020 12:55:40 GMT -5
With those matches how many times has a POC won? The only ones I can think of is the women's division which would skew that statistic. No one is claiming AEW is racist, people just want to see more POC in the main event scene. They're kinda hinting at Scorpio Sky so maybe they can go with that Scorpio Sky was one half of the inaugural Tag Team champions, so again, including the women, more than white talent. Alright you got me on that one. But what about the ME men's titles. Most of the time minorities look good in defeat and pretty much chucked back down the lower card. Do you think that maybe AEW could do a better job there? Because I think it's an AEW problem and not necessarily a race issue.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Jul 18, 2020 12:57:10 GMT -5
Yeah, not seeing the issue here. The company is owned by an ethnically Asian guy, their executives include a black woman, of the first champions in the entire company, two of the four weren't white, they've since gone on to crown a Native American as a Champion as well as another Japanese talent and off the top of my head have probably given as many, if not more non-white talent title shots across the four divisions as they have white talent. Okay, currently there's more white wrestlers signed than non-white wrestlers, but they certainly haven't shown any prejudice when it comes to promote the people of colour that they have on board already. Edit: Of the 35 Title matches so far in AEW, 22 have included at least one (and on many occasions, multiple) non-white talent. Yeah I think they'll become more diverse as time goes on. Having those two at the top of the company is massive given most organisations boards, they won't have the unconscious bias you often get. They also treat their lgbt+ wrestlers well. I suspect Kenny will bring more Japanese wrestlers in but obviously overseas recruitment ain't happening at the moment. In general it's a new company that's had to set up its recruitment from scratch and then had a pandemic to deal with so it'll take a while but they'll get there.
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markymark
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Post by markymark on Jul 18, 2020 12:59:42 GMT -5
With those matches how many times has a POC won? The only ones I can think of is the women's division which would skew that statistic. No one is claiming AEW is racist, people just want to see more POC in the main event scene. They're kinda hinting at Scorpio Sky so maybe they can go with that Scorpio Sky was one half of the inaugural Tag Team champions, so again, including the women, more than white talent. And also lets not forget how everyone was complaining about SCU title reign being boring and holding back the potential of the division.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 18, 2020 13:05:53 GMT -5
Is ACH still considered damaged goods these days or has he gotten his head back on straight after he left WWE? Jay Lethal is also not someone I'd want to touch with a 10 foot pole right now. This is a particularly white time in AEW's lifespan while WWE's found itself in a particularly diverse time for its champions. I think there some recency bias in comparing AEW and WWE's rosters right now given WWE's history of racism, especially since both top men's belts are currently held by white people. In fact, until Kofi's WWE Championship reign last year, the last Black man to hold the belt was The Rock, a part-timer at that point, in 2013. And the last Black member of the regular roster to hold the belt was... The Rock in 2002. But now is also the time to promote AEW's Black talent and sign some free agents even if they aren't the most high profile dudes. I think they're fine in the women's division for this with Brandi, Big Swole, and Nyla all having prominent places on the roster. But they can definitely do better by the men. They're still a very young company and they can build towards that.
Scorpio Sky was one half of the inaugural Tag Team champions, so again, including the women, more than white talent. Alright you got me on that one. But what about the ME men's titles. Most of the time minorities look good in defeat and pretty much chucked back down the lower card. Do you think that maybe AEW could do a better job there? Because I think it's an AEW problem and not necessarily a race issue.
Here's where the recency bias in AEW being a very young company comes in, since AEW only has 4 championships compared to WWE's 15 or so. The top belt's had two champions (Jericho and Moxley) as have the tag belts (Sky & Kazarian and Omega & Page) and the TNT belt was just introduced a couple of months ago with Cody as its inaugural champion. The women's belt has had 3 champions, all women of color.
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Post by Viking Hall on Jul 18, 2020 13:10:33 GMT -5
Scorpio Sky was one half of the inaugural Tag Team champions, so again, including the women, more than white talent. Alright you got me on that one. But what about the ME men's titles. Most of the time minorities look good in defeat and pretty much chucked back down the lower card. Do you think that maybe AEW could do a better job there? Because I think it's an AEW problem and not necessarily a race issue. Scorpio Sky was one half of the inaugural Tag Team champions, so again, including the women, more than white talent. And also lets not forget how everyone was complaining about SCU title reign being boring and holding back the potential of the division. This basically leads me to my first response, which is as lukewarm as the SCU title run was, what reason outside of 'he's black' makes someone like Scorpio Sky worthy of a run at the top? He's not been lacking in opportunities to showcase himself, in fact he's arguably been one of the few talents that's been overtly pushed rather than getting over organically and yet the response from the audience has been fairly muted. My second response would be, is there any black talent out there at the minute as a free agent who could come in and make an immediate impact and cement themselves as a main event player instantly? I honestly don't know the answer to this, but my point is, if there is, based on the companies initial track record I see no reason why this won't happen when the opportunity arises.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 13:17:21 GMT -5
I mean, Grey does bring up a good point. I don't think it's intentional, at least I would hope not when the owner is of Pakistani descent, and one of the EVP's is half-Cuban and is married to an African-American woman.
When I do think about it, though, it is something that needs to be addressed, especially in the men's singles division. The real trick is actually being diverse, instead of just tokenism.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 18, 2020 13:19:46 GMT -5
Alright you got me on that one. But what about the ME men's titles. Most of the time minorities look good in defeat and pretty much chucked back down the lower card. Do you think that maybe AEW could do a better job there? Because I think it's an AEW problem and not necessarily a race issue. And also lets not forget how everyone was complaining about SCU title reign being boring and holding back the potential of the division. This basically leads me to my first response, which is as lukewarm as the SCU title run was, what reason outside of 'he's black' makes someone like Scorpio Sky worthy of a run at the top? He's not been lacking in opportunities to showcase himself, in fact he's arguably been one of the few talents that's been overtly pushed rather than getting over organically and yet the response from the audience has been fairly muted. My second response would be, is there any black talent out there at the minute as a free agent who could come in and make an immediate impact and cement themselves as a main event player instantly? I honestly don't know the answer to this, but my point is, if there is, based on the companies initial track record I see no reason why this won't happen when the opportunity arises. I think Lee Moriarty has potential and Calvin Tankman (MLW just got him though) but if they can organically build a POC wrestler like Darby Allin and OC. Then these complaints will subside. I dont like how they tried to use tweets he said years ago to destroy his arguement, it seems more like they're shutting him up rather than listening to him.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 13:26:08 GMT -5
Side note - I don't know if he's signed anywhere at the moment, but Willie Mack was absolutely awesome in LU, and I would love to see him in AEW.
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Post by eJm on Jul 18, 2020 13:27:47 GMT -5
Side note - I don't know if he's signed anywhere at the moment, but Willie Mack was absolutely awesome in LU, and I would love to see him in AEW. He’s presently at Impact.
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