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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 13:32:51 GMT -5
Side note - I don't know if he's signed anywhere at the moment, but Willie Mack was absolutely awesome in LU, and I would love to see him in AEW. He’s presently at Impact. Well damn. Good get for Impact, though.
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Post by eJm on Jul 18, 2020 13:34:59 GMT -5
He’s presently at Impact. Well damn. Good get for Impact, though. If we’re going to call a spade a spade with diversity, especially with storylines, Impact seems to be doing their best with it in comparison to even WWE at times.
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Post by Viking Hall on Jul 18, 2020 13:36:18 GMT -5
This basically leads me to my first response, which is as lukewarm as the SCU title run was, what reason outside of 'he's black' makes someone like Scorpio Sky worthy of a run at the top? He's not been lacking in opportunities to showcase himself, in fact he's arguably been one of the few talents that's been overtly pushed rather than getting over organically and yet the response from the audience has been fairly muted. My second response would be, is there any black talent out there at the minute as a free agent who could come in and make an immediate impact and cement themselves as a main event player instantly? I honestly don't know the answer to this, but my point is, if there is, based on the companies initial track record I see no reason why this won't happen when the opportunity arises. I think Lee Moriarty has potential and Calvin Tankman (MLW just got him though) but if they can organically build a POC wrestler like Darby Allin and OC. Then these complaints will subside. I dont like how they tried to use tweets he said years ago to destroy his arguement, it seems more like they're shutting him up rather than listening to him. They've been very lucky to strike gold with the likes of Orange Cassidy and Darby Allin but for every one of those guys who became a hit instantly there's another Kip Sabian, Hangman Page and Britt Baker who they've had to take a step back with and retool to get them to where they want. I mean, even The Rock, arguably the most famous wrestler ever didn't just strike gold immediately, it took a lot of work and repackaging to get him to the point where he could become The Rock. Creating stars isn't an exact science, you can sign someone with all the talent in the world, but if they're an unknown entity there's no way to predict how an audience will react to them. They'll get there, we just need to patient and wait for them to sign the right talents.
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Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Jul 18, 2020 13:39:30 GMT -5
-The women's division for sure has had plenty of diversity. Every champion has been non-white. -The tag team division has plenty of diversity. Private Party, SCU (Scorpio Sky), the Lucha Brothers, Santana and Ortiz.
The main singles men's division is the least diverse in terms of the top players. Jericho, Cody, Mox, Hangman, Omega, Archer, MJF, Brody Lee, and Cage have been among the top pushed singles wrestlers. Not a lot of diversity there.
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JoDaNa1281
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Post by JoDaNa1281 on Jul 18, 2020 13:42:42 GMT -5
Side note - I don't know if he's signed anywhere at the moment, but Willie Mack was absolutely awesome in LU, and I would love to see him in AEW. He's currently signed with Impact, where he's the current X-Division Champion.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 13:49:03 GMT -5
WWE and NXT on the other hand, say we arent counting Kofi and Keith Lee. You got New Day who get highlighted when they weren't champions, got Ricochet who was highlighted even when he lost, got Naomi, there's Lashley, Sasha is Sasha, we can go further back and look at Mark Henry even. Yeah, WWE hasn't always been the most diverse place but they're doing a way better job than AEW is right now. And right now, honestly, yeah, most people regardless are going to go to WWE. That doesn't excuse the fact there's an untapped scene out there but for almost a decade, there was the indies, TNA (in whatever form it came to) and WWE. So any new promotion has something to prove with that. Now whether they're treating them well is a separate topic completely and the fact, for example, they capitalized zero percent from Bianca's main roster debut in the goddamn Royal Rumble is...yeah, that still feels insane to me. Yeah, now would be THE time to prove themselves when it comes to diversity but as we've seen it hasn't been the case. Beyond those I've named I mean you've got guys like Lio Rush, even with his own issues, was a Cruiserweight Champion, you have Zelina's stable, you've really got a great line-up in WWE right now when it comes to this. All it takes is for one child to see someone who's like them to resonate with the product, it really does help.
This also isn't something that's new either. AJ Grey called Cody and AEW out about this some months ago. After a fan called Cody out regarding this Cody said "[ne of our first champions was a black man. We have the only black executive in wrestling history as part of our core infrastructure as well. Our fans are beyond valued, I’d encourage you to watch my interview from this past week where I spoke directly to the viewer at home" and at the end of the day yeah, that's not really going to cut it given it's not really quite the same. You can't say "well we have the only black executive" and expect that to mean much when the reality is those same stars aren't really in the same light. It's just different.
Shit, if I were a black wrestler I'd look at all the companies and I'd think that I'd have a better shot with WWE right now. It doesn't mean that's accurate, it doesn't mean AEW is racist, it just means that from an optics point of view WWE's showing more diversity with their line-up compared to AEW.
At the end of the day like I said, now is the perfect time to make some changes. I see no reason why not.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 18, 2020 13:51:56 GMT -5
-The women's division for sure has had plenty of diversity. Every champion has been non-white. -The tag team division has plenty of diversity. Private Party, SCU (Scorpio Sky), the Lucha Brothers, Santana and Ortiz. The main singles men's division is the least diverse in terms of the top players. Jericho, Cody, Mox, Hangman, Omega, Archer, and Cage have been among the top pushed singles wrestlers. Not a lot of diversity there. That's what AJs arguement was. He just mentioned they can do better in that aspect
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Post by eJm on Jul 18, 2020 13:54:12 GMT -5
And right now, honestly, yeah, most people regardless are going to go to WWE. That doesn't excuse the fact there's an untapped scene out there but for almost a decade, there was the indies, TNA (in whatever form it came to) and WWE. So any new promotion has something to prove with that. Now whether they're treating them well is a separate topic completely and the fact, for example, they capitalized zero percent from Bianca's main roster debut in the goddamn Royal Rumble is...yeah, that still feels insane to me. Yeah, now would be THE time to prove themselves when it comes to diversity but as we've seen it hasn't been the case. Beyond those I've named I mean you've got guys like Lio Rush, even with his own issues, was a Cruiserweight Champion, you have Zelina's stable, you've really got a great line-up in WWE right now when it comes to this. All it takes is for one child to see someone who's like them to resonate with the product, it really does help.
This also isn't something that's new either. AJ Grey called Cody and AEW out about this some months ago. After a fan called Cody out regarding this Cody said "[ne of our first champions was a black man. We have the only black executive in wrestling history as part of our core infrastructure as well. Our fans are beyond valued, I’d encourage you to watch my interview from this past week where I spoke directly to the viewer at home" and at the end of the day yeah, that's not really going to cut it given it's not really quite the same. You can't say "well we have the only black executive" and expect that to mean much when the reality is those same stars aren't really in the same light. It's just different.
Shit, if I were a black wrestler I'd look at all the companies and I'd think that I'd have a better shot with WWE right now. It doesn't mean that's accurate, it doesn't mean AEW is racist, it just means that from an optics point of view WWE's showing more diversity with their line-up compared to AEW.
At the end of the day like I said, now is the perfect time to make some changes. I see no reason why not.
Oh no doubt, if you’re in WWE, you’re at least there which is important since you worked your way to that point and you’ll be seen by more people so I can completely see what you mean there.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Jul 18, 2020 14:02:48 GMT -5
I completely agree that AEW needs to be putting more POC into positions in which they can succeed. Not saying strap Sky up with the world title, though I wouldn't mind him getting more exposure regardless, but they definitely need more representation in the men's division. Honestly, the AEW women's division, despite some glaring flaws, can at least say they've been very diverse in their hiring.
More men of color would go a long way in opening new viewership. I'm sure there are a host of guys on the indies who are unknowns that could become stars if given the spot light. Hell, one of the things we praise AEW about is being able to find those diamond-in-the-rough; guys like Wardlow, Jungle Boy, Darby Allin, OC; women like Statlander, Shida, Big Swole. They can find these talents and give them a stage if they're willing, whether or not the talent takes off is purely on them but you'll never know who you have on your hands if you don't sign them first.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 18, 2020 14:27:18 GMT -5
See, I had more thoughts but I'll summarize it like this; I don't see the harm in calling for more diversity and representation in wrestling. Like, the names of Scorpio, Private Party and Big Swole are mentioned but if you really look at it, that's one black person for each division which, understandably, might come off as token representation rather than representing the diverse nature of the scene as a whole. Also let's consider, right now is the best time to call AEW out on stuff because they're more likely to make the changes needed. WWE, for as much progress as they've made, are still very ingrained and have no fundamental reason to do much except give token gestures and sign people because they're big right now and because they can. Sure, they can take a risk with a Kofi, but fundamentally, they're never going to do much story-wise outside of that because they're moment based. For all the criticisms you might have for them, AEW have at least demonstrated an ability to adapt and change to that and have been making an improvement with such. But it's also not unreasonable to ask for more considering. If I were any of the EVPs, I'd be paying attention to the tweets sent by Grey, Suge and others about talent they should be looking at. Hell, have Janela watch ACH at the next GCW show and see how he is and pick his brain about a cameo, there's no harm in it. So don't sign and push black wrestlers/minorities because rednecks would be offended? You don't cater to one audience. There is a reason WWE is always looking for that latin star to get that market. Once again, representation matters We are minorities for a reason, we won't be a majority in the company. However, show me a few people who look like me and I can connect to and if they grasp me you have a fun. You aren't reinventing the wheel, just trying to make sure the wheels on that bus can support everyone Also, hey, you want to change that perception and audience? Get more representation and don't do them dirty. WWE's search for a hispanic star always goes pear shaped because, outside of Del Rio, they just think having someone diverse is enough without having those people care and feel they're one of their own. Look at the Jinder push and how that bombed as a great example of misunderstanding a potentially big audience. But also from seeing tweets and such, people who aren't white can tell when they're being used as a token and when their ceiling is lower than their white counterparts. It puts people off from watching or even getting invested. So...like, don't? Yea, sadly it is baby steps. Their short sight did not see the potential they had in Jinder and because it didn't work the way they wanted they basically just put him back to where he was. You have to give these guys time and push them properly. Somehow WWE is still learning that you have to not just push them but make the audience care which they fail at. It can 100% be a turnoff especially when they f*** up as much as they have done. Sometimes they hit homeruns and other times they try to bunt and strikeout
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 18, 2020 14:37:48 GMT -5
I've never really got the need to see people who "represent" you on TV. I'm not American, there's no one on AEW who's like me or knows my experiences, and it's just not something I ever factor into my viewing for anything. I approach wrestling and all forms of art for engaging stories and, more so in higher art, to expand my horizons. I suppose some people have a need to identify with the characters they're watching, though. As I said earlier, as a black person you have to work 2x harder then everyone else to get where you are and realize your leash is also 2x shorter, that's facts So in saying that, if you are a young black kid and you are seeing people like Willie Mack, Moose, Street Profits, Lashley, Keith Lee, New Day, etc walking around successful and with championship that gives you big hopes and dreams. From the start of our lives we are basically put in a line and given a ceiling. However, shit like that helps those kids who may want to be a wrestler realize that they can make it which can not be understated That's not like to say black kids don't like white wrestlers and all that good stuff but if you can see someone who looks like you and they are making it big, that is invaluable for whatever life lessons they want to take away from this as they get older.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Jul 18, 2020 14:42:51 GMT -5
Where did you even get that? He just wants black and brown wrestlers signed and relevant. It's not even that big of an ask; the WWE with all its history does it fine these days. Same with Impact despite wack some of them (*cough*moose*cough) are. They should be signing wrestlers because they would bring something to the company. That's the only thing that should play a factor. They don’t do that though. They hire Cody and Jericho’s friends.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 18, 2020 14:46:28 GMT -5
I agree with him.
However, let's remember it took WWE an extreeeemely long time to book black wrestlers without making them stereotypes.
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Jul 18, 2020 14:49:16 GMT -5
I agree with him. However, let's remember it took WWE an extreeeemely long time to book black wrestlers without making them stereotypes. Yeah but you can look at that and say AEW should have a leg up on that then since people there have seen those negative qualities in WWE and should rectify them.
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 18, 2020 15:01:05 GMT -5
I agree with him. However, let's remember it took WWE an extreeeemely long time to book black wrestlers without making them stereotypes. Yeah but you can look at that and say AEW should have a leg up on that then since people there have seen those negative qualities in WWE and should rectify them. I honestly think they would be if they could hire people right now, if only because they've shown they can take feedback on board before.
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Post by Cyno on Jul 18, 2020 15:02:58 GMT -5
I've never really got the need to see people who "represent" you on TV. I'm not American, there's no one on AEW who's like me or knows my experiences, and it's just not something I ever factor into my viewing for anything. I approach wrestling and all forms of art for engaging stories and, more so in higher art, to expand my horizons. I suppose some people have a need to identify with the characters they're watching, though. As I said earlier, as a black person you have to work 2x harder then everyone else to get where you are and realize your leash is also 2x shorter, that's facts So in saying that, if you are a young black kid and you are seeing people like Willie Mack, Moose, Street Profits, Lashley, Keith Lee, New Day, etc walking around successful and with championship that gives you big hopes and dreams. From the start of our lives we are basically put in a line and given a ceiling. However, shit like that helps those kids who may want to be a wrestler realize that they can make it which can not be understated That's not like to say black kids don't like white wrestlers and all that good stuff but if you can see someone who looks like you and they are making it big, that is invaluable for whatever life lessons they want to take away from this as they get older. I feel the same way as a Jewish person, especially in sports since there's a stereotype about Jewish people being uncoordinated and not athletic. I can't tell you how much as a 13 year old kid that seeing a huge badass like Goldberg wreck WCW meant to me.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jul 18, 2020 15:18:24 GMT -5
I took a look at the Summerslam 1992 card as a reference point since that will be on FS1 soon. There were a few minority wrestlers on the card, but not that many. Papa Shango wrestled a dark match vs. Tito Santana. Tatanka was in another dark match. But on the actual PPV card you had Virgil (who got squashed by Nailz) and Kamala. That's like 18/20 wrestlers being white (90%). That isn't counting managers. Let me look at Summerslam 1999 for another comparison. I counted all of 3 minorities on the PPV card (D'Lo, Faarooq, Rock) out of 23 total wrestlers. That's about 87% white guys. Curiously enough a show like WM 3 actually had quite a bit more diversity to it: Muraco (native Hawaiian), Haiti Kid, Little Beaver, and Little Tokyo in the wacky midget match, JYD, Tito Santana, Butch Reed and Koko Ware, Steamboat (part Japanese), Iron Sheik. My point is that wrestling has largely been this white guy thing for a long time. That era is what guys like Cody (or even Tony Khan) grew up with. Omega not so much, so you see more diversity with his signings. There are a few black guys on AEW Dark that are green as grass but have potential. Here is some food for thought though: Is signing more women or minorities going to lead to AEW having far more success? WWE is pushing women on a big level and has a lot of diversity among its current titleholders....and is getting record low ratings. I think smarks on message boards tend to forget that the biggest audience for wrestling historically is a bunch of rednecks, which isn't an audience that is terribly interested in any of this, so they quit watching. So who replaces that audience? No one really. Wrestling always been that way sadly. The WWE took way, way to long, to have a black World champion. Think about it 2007 before Booker T became the World Champion. Unless you count the Rock is only part black. That a long ass time and you can't tell me over the years there wasn't people who could have done it.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 18, 2020 15:23:52 GMT -5
I took a look at the Summerslam 1992 card as a reference point since that will be on FS1 soon. There were a few minority wrestlers on the card, but not that many. Papa Shango wrestled a dark match vs. Tito Santana. Tatanka was in another dark match. But on the actual PPV card you had Virgil (who got squashed by Nailz) and Kamala. That's like 18/20 wrestlers being white (90%). That isn't counting managers. Let me look at Summerslam 1999 for another comparison. I counted all of 3 minorities on the PPV card (D'Lo, Faarooq, Rock) out of 23 total wrestlers. That's about 87% white guys. Curiously enough a show like WM 3 actually had quite a bit more diversity to it: Muraco (native Hawaiian), Haiti Kid, Little Beaver, and Little Tokyo in the wacky midget match, JYD, Tito Santana, Butch Reed and Koko Ware, Steamboat (part Japanese), Iron Sheik. My point is that wrestling has largely been this white guy thing for a long time. That era is what guys like Cody (or even Tony Khan) grew up with. Omega not so much, so you see more diversity with his signings. There are a few black guys on AEW Dark that are green as grass but have potential. Here is some food for thought though: Is signing more women or minorities going to lead to AEW having far more success? WWE is pushing women on a big level and has a lot of diversity among its current titleholders....and is getting record low ratings. I think smarks on message boards tend to forget that the biggest audience for wrestling historically is a bunch of rednecks, which isn't an audience that is terribly interested in any of this, so they quit watching. So who replaces that audience? No one really. Wrestling always been that way sadly. The WWE took way, way to long, to have a black World champion. Think about it 2007 before Booker T became the World Champion. Unless you count the Rock is only part black. That a long ass time and you can't tell me over the years there wasn't people who could have done it. Ever since I first came here, back when this place was still associated with The 'Crap, that's been a thing that has really bugged me. It always feels like there are people (regardless of their own background) that want to invalidate the blackness of someone who's only half (or possibly less) black. And Rock is usually the most prominent example of that.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jul 18, 2020 15:24:17 GMT -5
I took a look at the Summerslam 1992 card as a reference point since that will be on FS1 soon. There were a few minority wrestlers on the card, but not that many. Papa Shango wrestled a dark match vs. Tito Santana. Tatanka was in another dark match. But on the actual PPV card you had Virgil (who got squashed by Nailz) and Kamala. That's like 18/20 wrestlers being white (90%). That isn't counting managers. Let me look at Summerslam 1999 for another comparison. I counted all of 3 minorities on the PPV card (D'Lo, Faarooq, Rock) out of 23 total wrestlers. That's about 87% white guys. Curiously enough a show like WM 3 actually had quite a bit more diversity to it: Muraco (native Hawaiian), Haiti Kid, Little Beaver, and Little Tokyo in the wacky midget match, JYD, Tito Santana, Butch Reed and Koko Ware, Steamboat (part Japanese), Iron Sheik. My point is that wrestling has largely been this white guy thing for a long time. That era is what guys like Cody (or even Tony Khan) grew up with. Omega not so much, so you see more diversity with his signings. There are a few black guys on AEW Dark that are green as grass but have potential. Here is some food for thought though: Is signing more women or minorities going to lead to AEW having far more success? WWE is pushing women on a big level and has a lot of diversity among its current titleholders....and is getting record low ratings. I think smarks on message boards tend to forget that the biggest audience for wrestling historically is a bunch of rednecks, which isn't an audience that is terribly interested in any of this, so they quit watching. So who replaces that audience? No one really. Wrestling always been that way sadly. The WWE took way, way to long, to have a black World champion. Think about it 2007 before Booker T became the World Champion. Unless you count the Rock is only part black. That a long ass time and you can't tell me over the years there wasn't people who could have done it. The Rock is black, part black does not matter. Let's stop doing that Your point stands tho in them not putting up black world champs
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jul 18, 2020 15:31:44 GMT -5
Wrestling always been that way sadly. The WWE took way, way to long, to have a black World champion. Think about it 2007 before Booker T became the World Champion. Unless you count the Rock is only part black. That a long ass time and you can't tell me over the years there wasn't people who could have done it. The Rock is black, part black does not matter. Let's stop doing that Your point stands tho in them not putting up black world champs Even in late 1998, still to long and I remember the promo Faarooq made in 97 really called Vince and the time WWF on it.
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