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Post by James Fabiano on Jul 9, 2022 17:17:37 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels' superkick being a knockout finisher in singles matches, merely a move to set the victim up for his partner's finisher in tag matches. Why does everyone try to powerbomb Kidman? Why do they keep the chair RVD threw to them?
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Post by sdoyle7798 on Jul 11, 2022 0:16:13 GMT -5
The rules of wrestling have never made much sense to me. You're basically allowed to gouge someone's eyes and choke them for five seconds at a time without any issue but as soon as you hit them below the belt, it's an automatic DQ. You want them to speedbag a dude’s deal for five seconds?
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auph10imitated
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Post by auph10imitated on Jul 11, 2022 5:36:54 GMT -5
Yeah, she didn't want to compete with the women to begin with, since, I've heard Chyna could be a total sweetheart in some ways, but she did also get quite an ego. She considered the women beneath her, and had previously gotten into an argument with Sable during a promotional appearance that seemed to be genuine, with Chyna saying her going for Sable's title wouldn't be interesting because she'd easily beat her and anyone else. When the time came to compete with the women, she had initially had a chip on her shoulder and was condescending to Ivory, according to her, but that she warmed up after they began working together and Chyna understood that A. Ivory knew what she was doing, and B. Ivory was *trying* to make Chyna look like a million bucks, and that she needed to trust her if they were going to do their best. I do wonder if Chyna felt a bit threatened by Lita's popularity. Chyna was the bigger star for them still, but she had also plateaued in WWE, while being impatient with opportunities outside of WWE, many of which dried up when she left and thus didn't have crossbranding potential. Obviously, she wouldn't know that yet, but she did have to realize that the "Lady wrestler who can keep up with the guys" niche she previously occupied was now also going to Lita, bit by bit, and the same wave she road on wasn't likely to circle back around to her again barring some breakthrough like movie roles. You know, I absolutely LOVE speaking to you. You always bring up some very profound observations. I think Chyna did see some competition and perhaps some envy with Lita. I remember in a shoot interview, Ivory did say that Chyna was extremely condescending to her (I believe Ivory stated that Chyna was a "taker" in the ring) and I heard a rumor that Chyna made Tori cry at one point. It's clear that she didn't too much care for the women of the business and deemed them as inferior to her. Some of the women could roll with the smaller men (I distinctly remember Ivory and Jackie both taking on Dean Malenko), but not all of them could, and Chyna thought she had the monopoly on women legitimately taking on men. Lita was extremely popular, with her popularity exploding when she joined the Hardy Boyz and her feud with Stephanie McMahon-Helmsley during the summer of 2000. She gained even more popularity during her weird feud with creepy Dean Malenko that showed that Lita, too, could hang with the guys. By the time that Chyna had settled into her WWF Women's Championship run, her popularity began to wane a bit, while Lita's did nothing but soar. I think Chyna perhaps saw her as a threat, and I think if Chyna did stick around and didn't have that contract dispute, she would have never dropped the title to her, or at least not directly. I also heard a rumor of an abandoned plot that was going to turn Chyna heel and she was going to go around beating on all the women for fun. I'm just not sure how much life would have imitated art at that point. Either way, I have heard the same; that Chyna was a sweetheart IRL, but could be downright cross sometimes, especially when her ego got the best of her. I was a huge mark for her growing up and she does, in my head cannon, remain the best WWF Women's Champion as she was never defeated. I just wish she never got into that contract dispute. Smh. Bit late on this one but Lita says Chyna and her was to have a 3 PPV run, so I imagine that it would have been the July PPV (at that point was a regular PPV) then Summerslam with Lita winning the title there after a Chyna heel turn to rejoin Eddie (who was fueding with Matt) and I assume then on Chyna would have assumed that valet type roll and wrestling men intermittently.
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Post by sungod2020 on Jul 11, 2022 7:10:25 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels' superkick being a knockout finisher in singles matches, merely a move to set the victim up for his partner's finisher in tag matches. I don't know if that's a plothole unless you mean they immediately got up after it. I know him and Marty Jannetty used the superkick during their matches when they teamed together, but you can say he perfected it over time to the point where it was potent enough to become a finisher. What matches (post Rockers breakup) did he use the superkick as a set up for his partner's finishers? Here's another one. Jack Tunney banning a rematch between Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior because they fought each other past the point of exhaustion, yet when Undertaker beat Hogan at Survivor Series 91, Tunney ordered a rematch SIX DAYS LATER after Hogan was taken out on a stretcher not knowing if he'd be in condition to compete. Also, Jeff Jarrett denouncing his country singer gimmick(and even being outed as a fake a year earlier) via worked shoot only to go back to it 8 months later. Kurt Angle rallying against ECW in 2005, only to be part of it and "go extreme" the next year shortly before his departure.
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Post by sungod2020 on Jul 11, 2022 7:30:41 GMT -5
How is this for a plothole? In the fall of 1988, Ted Dibiase attempts to buy Hercules as his slave, then two years later at Survivor Series, they are on the same team(the Grand Finale match) gleefully ready to vanquish the team of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, and Tito Santana. I think it was implied that he paid them(The Visionaries) though.
Earlier in the night, Hulk Hogan was teaming with The Big Bossman despite feuding two years earlier which included The Bossman attacking The Hulkster with a guard rail.
Ultimate Warrior being slapped around by Sensational Sherri and saying he would never hit a woman(he took his frustrations out on no name jobbers), yet tossed her around at the 1991 Royal Rumble during his match with Sgt. Slaughter.
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Post by CeilingFan on Jul 11, 2022 7:33:57 GMT -5
How is this for a plothole? In the fall of 1988, Ted Dibiase attempts to buy Hercules as his slave, then two years later at Survivor Series, they are on the same team(the Grand Finale match) gleefully ready to vanquish the team of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, and Tito Santana. I think it was implied that he paid them(The Visionaries) though. Earlier in the night, Hulk Hogan was teaming with The Big Bossman despite feuding two years earlier which included The Bossman attacking The Hulkster with a guard rail. Ultimate Warrior being slapped around by Sensational Sherri and saying he would never hit a woman(he took his frustrations out on no name jobbers), yet tossed her around at the 1991 Royal Rumble during his match with Sgt. Slaughter. I got a worse example : Jake the Snake Roberts and Earthquake are announced as teammates at the 1991 Survivor Series, 6 months after Earthquake "killed" Jake's pet Damien.
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Post by sungod2020 on Jul 11, 2022 8:18:24 GMT -5
How is this for a plothole? In the fall of 1988, Ted Dibiase attempts to buy Hercules as his slave, then two years later at Survivor Series, they are on the same team(the Grand Finale match) gleefully ready to vanquish the team of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, and Tito Santana. I think it was implied that he paid them(The Visionaries) though. Earlier in the night, Hulk Hogan was teaming with The Big Bossman despite feuding two years earlier which included The Bossman attacking The Hulkster with a guard rail. Ultimate Warrior being slapped around by Sensational Sherri and saying he would never hit a woman(he took his frustrations out on no name jobbers), yet tossed her around at the 1991 Royal Rumble during his match with Sgt. Slaughter. I got a worse example : Jake the Snake Roberts and Earthquake are announced as teammates at the 1991 Survivor Series, 6 months after Earthquake "killed" Jake's pet Damien. That's a good one. Also, Undertaker and Ultimate Warrior teaming together(at least on the house show circuit) in 1992 a year after Taker locked Warrior in the casket.
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Honeybear Lyder
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Post by Honeybear Lyder on Jul 11, 2022 10:39:08 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels' superkick being a knockout finisher in singles matches, merely a move to set the victim up for his partner's finisher in tag matches. I don't know if that's a plothole unless you mean they immediately got up after it. I know him and Marty Jannetty used the superkick during their matches when they teamed together, but you can say he perfected it over time to the point where it was potent enough to become a finisher. What matches (post Rockers breakup) did he use the superkick as a set up for his partner's finishers? Here's another one. Jack Tunney banning a rematch between Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior because they fought each other past the point of exhaustion, yet when Undertaker beat Hogan at Survivor Series 91, Tunney ordered a rematch SIX DAYS LATER after Hogan was taken out on a stretcher not knowing if he'd be in condition to compete. Also, Jeff Jarrett denouncing his country singer gimmick(and even being outed as a fake a year earlier) via worked shoot only to go back to it 8 months later. Kurt Angle rallying against ECW in 2005, only to be part of it and "go extreme" the next year shortly before his departure. I was talking about his teams with Triple H and Cena, when the superkick would merely make the victim turn around and walk into a Pedigree or an AA.
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fg
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Post by fg on Jul 11, 2022 14:42:56 GMT -5
I got a worse example : Jake the Snake Roberts and Earthquake are announced as teammates at the 1991 Survivor Series, 6 months after Earthquake "killed" Jake's pet Damien. That's a good one. Also, Undertaker and Ultimate Warrior teaming together(at least on the house show circuit) in 1992 a year after Taker locked Warrior in the casket. At least with Warrior/Taker, during one of their promos, Warrior alluded to his past with Taker. m.youtube.com/watch?v=-OzAYJ1va8E
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Post by James Fabiano on Jul 11, 2022 18:12:42 GMT -5
I don't know if that's a plothole unless you mean they immediately got up after it. I know him and Marty Jannetty used the superkick during their matches when they teamed together, but you can say he perfected it over time to the point where it was potent enough to become a finisher. What matches (post Rockers breakup) did he use the superkick as a set up for his partner's finishers? Here's another one. Jack Tunney banning a rematch between Hulk Hogan and The Ultimate Warrior because they fought each other past the point of exhaustion, yet when Undertaker beat Hogan at Survivor Series 91, Tunney ordered a rematch SIX DAYS LATER after Hogan was taken out on a stretcher not knowing if he'd be in condition to compete. Also, Jeff Jarrett denouncing his country singer gimmick(and even being outed as a fake a year earlier) via worked shoot only to go back to it 8 months later. Kurt Angle rallying against ECW in 2005, only to be part of it and "go extreme" the next year shortly before his departure. I was talking about his teams with Triple H and Cena, when the superkick would merely make the victim turn around and walk into a Pedigree or an AA. I'm guessing Shawn can control the power of the kick, like the three buttons in Capcom games or something. If he wants to just stun someone, he'll pull his kicks just enough.
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Jul 11, 2022 18:33:44 GMT -5
HBK used the super kick as an instant match ender, and now it’s just another move that every light heavyweight uses I wouldn't count it as an inconsistency if some else attempted another person's signature move isn't as devastating as the original. If Shawn's superkick became a regular move in his matches, it would be an inconsistency. In kayfabe, it can easily be explained that the finisher is something the wrestler has perfected and no one else can do it with the precision strike and power required to end a match. Much like Ryu's Shoryuken uppercut isn't as powerful as Ken's. Ironically, the super kick WAS just a move in Shawn's arsenal at first, especially so in the Rockers days. Wasn't until they started building up the break-up of his team with Diesel that led to their WrestleMania XI match that he replaced the Teardrop Suplex he was using for what would become Sweet Chin Music.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Jul 11, 2022 18:40:38 GMT -5
I was talking about his teams with Triple H and Cena, when the superkick would merely make the victim turn around and walk into a Pedigree or an AA. I'm guessing Shawn can control the power of the kick, like the three buttons in Capcom games or something. If he wants to just stun someone, he'll pull his kicks just enough. I guess Austin had the same power with the stunner. In regular matches it would knock them out where he could get an easy pin but whenever he would do it in a Royal Rumble it would just make them groggy so they would stay on their feet and he could eliminate them.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jul 11, 2022 18:50:17 GMT -5
How is this for a plothole? In the fall of 1988, Ted Dibiase attempts to buy Hercules as his slave, then two years later at Survivor Series, they are on the same team(the Grand Finale match) gleefully ready to vanquish the team of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, and Tito Santana. I think it was implied that he paid them(The Visionaries) though.Earlier in the night, Hulk Hogan was teaming with The Big Bossman despite feuding two years earlier which included The Bossman attacking The Hulkster with a guard rail. Ultimate Warrior being slapped around by Sensational Sherri and saying he would never hit a woman(he took his frustrations out on no name jobbers), yet tossed her around at the 1991 Royal Rumble during his match with Sgt. Slaughter. No, he promised them a huge payoff if they won the match. The bigger plot hole is how WWF just yadda yadda’d over how the Grande Finale teams were constructed. It just happened to be faces v. heels. They didn’t even bother to explain how that came to be.
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CMWaters
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Post by CMWaters on Jul 11, 2022 19:03:08 GMT -5
If you want another Survivor Series plot hole...
Why did Big Boss Man think it was good idea having Bad News Brown on his team in 1989 when the previous year (as he would again in 1989) he walked out on his team and got himself eliminated by choice? After that you'd think Boss Man would know Brown wasn't a team player.
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Post by sungod2020 on Jul 11, 2022 19:14:51 GMT -5
How is this for a plothole? In the fall of 1988, Ted Dibiase attempts to buy Hercules as his slave, then two years later at Survivor Series, they are on the same team(the Grand Finale match) gleefully ready to vanquish the team of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, and Tito Santana. I think it was implied that he paid them(The Visionaries) though.Earlier in the night, Hulk Hogan was teaming with The Big Bossman despite feuding two years earlier which included The Bossman attacking The Hulkster with a guard rail. Ultimate Warrior being slapped around by Sensational Sherri and saying he would never hit a woman(he took his frustrations out on no name jobbers), yet tossed her around at the 1991 Royal Rumble during his match with Sgt. Slaughter. No, he promised them a huge payoff if they won the match. The bigger plot hole is how WWF just yadda yadda’d over how the Grande Finale teams were constructed. It just happened to be faces v. heels. They didn’t even bother to explain how that came to be. Eh, i'm sure fans could figure out who would team with who. How would the commentators explain that without using insider terms that few people outside the industry heard of(at the time).
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Jul 12, 2022 7:10:55 GMT -5
Shawn Michaels' superkick being a knockout finisher in singles matches, merely a move to set the victim up for his partner's finisher in tag matches. Why does everyone try to powerbomb Kidman? Why do they keep the chair RVD threw to them? They actually answered that second one twice in ECW. Someone tried swinging at him so he did a leg sweep and they landed face first on the chair, and I think Jerry Lynn just threw the chair at his face once and that worked
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Post by James Fabiano on Jul 12, 2022 9:58:37 GMT -5
How is this for a plothole? In the fall of 1988, Ted Dibiase attempts to buy Hercules as his slave, then two years later at Survivor Series, they are on the same team(the Grand Finale match) gleefully ready to vanquish the team of Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, and Tito Santana. I think it was implied that he paid them(The Visionaries) though. Earlier in the night, Hulk Hogan was teaming with The Big Bossman despite feuding two years earlier which included The Bossman attacking The Hulkster with a guard rail. Ultimate Warrior being slapped around by Sensational Sherri and saying he would never hit a woman(he took his frustrations out on no name jobbers), yet tossed her around at the 1991 Royal Rumble during his match with Sgt. Slaughter. I got a worse example : Jake the Snake Roberts and Earthquake are announced as teammates at the 1991 Survivor Series, 6 months after Earthquake "killed" Jake's pet Damien. What's odd about the first thing is, Hercules actually makes a subtle "didn't forget the past" gesture when Bobby Heenan got handcuffed to the barricade by Bossman. Power and Glory had to come down for their match, and Slick and Roma seemed to be the ones to care while Herc did nothing. It can be chalked up to "Well, he HAD to team with DiBiase because of the rules of the Grand Finale" Well, you can't say Hogan (on screen) didn't believe in giving people a second chance, if he wasn't a great role model in other ways. (He did the same for Orndorff in 1987...shoot, aside from Bigelow, his team was made of people he was at odds with one time or another. Maybe this was the WWF's attempt at saying "See? Hulk forgives people who did him wrong, you should do the same!") Knowing how twisted heel Jake was in 1991, perhaps he saw killing Damian as helping him embrace the dark side, so he was thanking Quake by putting him on his team. Other than that, I got nothing. How about when Randy Savage became the Macho King and TED DIBIASE gave him his scepter? Going back to Survivor Series, Savage's team that year consisted only of people in Jimmy Hart's stable too.
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Post by clodhopper on Jul 12, 2022 11:12:34 GMT -5
Piper and Snuka on the same team that one Survivor Series is another. I'd always assumed that in kayfabe, the the wrestlers didn't choose their partners for Survivor Series matches, rather they just got put together by the powers-that-be, hence guys sometimes having to team with wrestlers they'd previous had issue with. No idea if there is storyline evidence to contradict this or not.
Even if they didn't choose their teammates though, it was still weird seeing Piper and Snuka be all pally in promos.
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Jul 12, 2022 11:15:40 GMT -5
If you want another Survivor Series plot hole... Why did Big Boss Man think it was good idea having Bad News Brown on his team in 1989 when the previous year (as he would again in 1989) he walked out on his team and got himself eliminated by choice? After that you'd think Boss Man would know Brown wasn't a team player. That could be explained that Akeem had to pull out due to injury and Bad News was the only one available
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Post by jason1980s on Jul 12, 2022 11:55:25 GMT -5
Poor Akeem had to change his gimmick and a year later he was an afterthought. I know the Heenan Family story and No Holds Barred stories were more important than the opening match but no mention whatsoever of why Bossman's regular partner wasn't at the event. Good thing he left when he did (late 1990). He became pretty much a jobber for a full year.
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