The problem with the “WWE babyfaces need an edge” theory

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

“Well, WWE doesn’t write faces well, so-“ hold up. What I want to focus on here is the dynamic between the performer and the crowd. Because sometimes we go around in circles when this topic comes up.

Someone laments about how WWE can’t get faces right, people point out how Bryan and Kofi got over, others point out how the faces constantly look weak, then others will point out how some faces look too strong, blah blah, and so on. Which keeps feeding into the attitude of “well, Moxley and Austin got over, so giving your faces some grit and edge must be the right way to go through in modern wrestling if you want a face to be be universally loved!”

Right there is the key flaw with these discussions, the idea of the “universally loved face”. Universally loved faces don’t exist.

I’m not sure they ever have. Just like how a universally hated heel (at least one that isn’t trying to be outwardly offensive, and is good in their role) is kind of a myth. And it doesn’t matter how good the writing is, there are always going to be a few fans who like the other wrestler more.

The flaw in hyper focusing on people like Austin and Rock as a go-to template is that they weren’t universally beloved by every fan. You watch those old 90s Raw’s and listen to how loud the audience is, yeah, maybe you’ll get the idea that every single fan rooted for them. Not true, I knew tons of fans back then who couldn’t stand Austin, or pulled for people like Benoit and Angle over the Rock. HHH had his supporters them too, people were doing the pose along with him back in 2000.

Hogan didn’t have universal support back in the 80s, either, tons of folks preferred Piper, Jake or Savage. You can’t tell me some fans weren’t more into Superstar Graham over Bruno. And there were plenty of fans who loved Ric Flair and would get on Dusty’s case. Dusty would clap back and go “well get yo fat ass outta here if ya don’t like it!” Because he knew he still had his fanbase. Same thing with Cena, you hear how all the older dudes clowned on him, and you forget just how loud those screams from the women and small kids were. His negative reactions had a *huge* chunk of folks on the Cenation side offsetting them. (TBH, sometimes I think the way we look at other wrestling fans is too older guy-centric in general, but that’s a bigger topic.)

My main point is, even if every single face had good writing and were booked best to their strengths, different kinds of faces are gonna appeal to different kinds of people. If a golly-gosh face is talented and booked well, they will get a portion of fans behind them, even if they don’t appeal to some who prefer edgier faces. And likewise, if you have a gritter face and they have good writing, they’ll have their support, but they will *not* capture every single fan.

Everyone wasn’t into Kofi’s attitude, everyone isn’t into Mox’s vibe. They each have their own camps, with fans who prefer that particular style of hero. That’s why you can say “there will always be faces and heels” and “wrestlers are kinda like sports teams”, and both statements will be true.

But don’t let whatever weird hangups Vince has in his writing fool you, a smart wrestler can get any kind of cheesy face character over if they’re clever enough and have a proper support system. Audiences will accept damn near anything if they can sink their teeth into it.

[romanstylesiii]

Pretty much agree with this. They don't need to be edgy, but at the same time, Vince writing comedy jokes just kills every character he touches. From Diesel to Roman, and a few in between.



You don't need to be edgy to be cool, but "poopy" jokes are just going to make you look incredibly lame

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Dec 5, 2020 13:41:30 GMT -5 romanstylesiii said:

Pretty much agree with this. They don't need to be edgy, but at the same time, Vince writing comedy jokes just kills every character he touches. From Diesel to Roman, and a few in between.



You don't need to be edgy to be cool, but "poopy" jokes are just going to make you look incredibly lame

Keep in mind, I have encountered fans who do laugh at some of the low brow stuff. It’s not something I would write for a top star, but again, different stuff appeals to all kinds.

[Cyno]

The perfect comparison for this is comic book superheroes like Superman and Captain America. These are characters that don't need an edge to be compelling or likeable. Yeah, some people are going to complain about them being too goody two shoes, and that's fine. Those people can read Batman or The Punisher if they want edgier characters.

And, to no surprise, that most attempts to make those character "edgy" has failed miserably outside of fun "what if" scenarios.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Dec 5, 2020 13:48:43 GMT -5 Cyno said:

The perfect comparison for this is comic book superheroes like Superman and Captain America. These are characters that don't need an edge to be compelling or likeable. Yeah, some people are going to complain about them being too goody two shoes, and that's fine. Those people can read Batman or The Punisher if they want edgier characters.

And, to no surprise, that most attempts to make those character "edgy" has failed miserably outside of fun "what if" scenarios.

Plus having a few white meat characters around helps keep things interesting for the edgier ones. It’s why Spider-Man and Deadpool interactions are so good.

[Feyrhausen]

Wrestlers don’t need to be made edgy. Or funny. There is only one magic formula when making a wrestling character. Honesty.

People believed in Steve Austin chugging beer and stunning Vince. They don’t believe Roman Reigns saying suffering succotash. Let the wrestlers be who they are and the fans will decide whether that is someone they want to pay to see.

[Deleted]

Babyfaces can be anything as long as they can get over. Some could be edgy, some pretty straightlaced, and I think variety is key. Like, it would be cool if they went all in with a smiley face do-gooder who has to team up with a jerk antihero against a bigger threat.

[Deleted]

To me it isn't about them being edgy or superbadasses but don't make them dumbasses and that is a huge problem with WWE babyfaces where they are always outsmarted , they never help one another and come off as bigger heels than the ones who are suppose to be the actual heels.

And then there is also the other problem of just consistency in the characters...they act and do something fairly noble one week but then the follow up is completely against what they did the previous week.

In short WWE has horrible characterization.

[Dub H]

It depend what you mean by " edge".

Superman has an edge,he struggles with his place in life and trying to uphold his morals.

Captain America has an edge as he feels the burden to represent all the common man and be a symbol of the people and at same a leader.

And every time they fail they feel that weight press on then.



WWE is the land of " win or lose I am just happy to be here".


Like Kofi's character was great until he lost to Brock in embarassing fashion and kept dancing and laughing,then he wasnt.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Dec 5, 2020 14:11:43 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Wrestlers don’t need to be made edgy. Or funny. There is only one magic formula when making a wrestling character. Honesty.

People believed in Steve Austin chugging beer and stunning Vince. They don’t believe Roman Reigns saying suffering succotash. Let the wrestlers be who they are and the fans will decide whether that is someone they want to pay to see.

People tend to get over when they’re allowed to have some fun with their character. When you watch Reigns trying to cut what’s basically a reheated Rock promo, he looks and sounds super uncomfortable. The way he hesitantly says “suffering...” as if he’s thinking, why am I saying this? This isn’t me. In contrast, he clearly loves his current Bill The Butcher-style bad guy role. Cena obviously loved being that cartoon superhero to his kid fans, so that’s where he got over playing that part Roman fumbled with back then.

With Austin, sometimes we forget that the edginess wasn’t the only reason he got over. I actually do love a lot of that old Attitude main event stuff, but it’s because Austin was kind of a wild man who disrupted the show. He was energetic and the loudest person present. Plus he also had a sly sense of humor. He’d react to certain things with the right facial expression, and people would pop (also, beating Vince with a bedpan.) I don’t feel edginess is always a guaranteed solution because so often it’s just one of many reasons a wrestler will get hot.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Dec 5, 2020 14:22:43 GMT -5 Dub H said:

It depend what you mean by " edge".

Superman has an edge,he struggles with his place in life and trying to uphold his morals.

Captain America has an edge as he feels the burden to represent all the common man and be a symbol of the people and at same a leader.

And every time they fail they feel that weight press on then.



WWE is the land of " win or lose I am just happy to be here".


Like Kofi's character was great until he lost to Brock in embarassing fashion and kept dancing and laughing,then he wasnt.

Eh, I don’t define that as “an edge”, those are just character dilemmas. Specific problems Cap and Supes usually have to deal with. What you’re talking about is just good, common sense writing.

“Edgy” in wrestling to me is ECW, W*ING, CZW, some of the more violent 80s territory action. The Dudleyz, Sandman, various aspects of Attitude, early MLW, stuff in that frame of mind.

[Ben Wyatt]

It's weird because while I agree with you, I'd also argue that Drew is the best babyface they've had in a long time and he's got a badass aura to him

[Bang Bang Bart]

Dec 5, 2020 14:42:05 GMT -5 Ben Wyatt said:

It's weird because while I agree with you, I'd also argue that Drew is the best babyface they've had in a long time and he's got a badass aura to him

Yes, face Drew is a badass, but he’s got a strong moral fiber to his character, like how he only got extreme on Orton to pay him back for his evil acts.

[Deleted]

I'd say they don't need an edge but what they do need is a spine. So many of WWE's faces just roll over and take whatever happens to them or go nowhere near far enough in giving heels their comeuppance.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

Dec 5, 2020 15:06:56 GMT -5 Lizuka #BLM said:

I'd say they don't need an edge but what they do need is a spine. So many of WWE's faces just roll over and take whatever happens to them or go nowhere near far enough in giving heels their comeuppance.

They absolutely do need more spine, yes. Ricky Steamboat was a white meat face with backbone, he beat on some heels so bad to where I wonder if people would assume he was turning.

[Pushed to the Moon]

Authenticity is the key for me.

[Deleted]

You know, speaking of Kofi, this goes back to the whole "Big E needs to be more serious and stop joking around or I won't take him serious" thing. Since before Kofi won the title we've seen numerous people say that they don't like his "jokey and silly" attitude and because of that they couldn't see him as world champion. Kofi then won the title being true to himself and not only did he have an amazing win but he was generally for the most part a great champion. Still people hated. Alas, he had a ton of support and he was one of the most loved babyfaces on the roster that year regardless of what happened.

Now, here comes Big E with his whole single's run. Since the beginning people took those same comments said to Kofi and applied them to Big E. They say he's got be "more edgy" and he's gotta be "more serious", they say a lot of stuff. Big E beats some people, Big E's left alone on SD and yet people still say these things. Anyway, we get to the latest Smackdown. Big E's got a new harder theme, he's got new graphics, he's got the whole chalk thing and at the end of the day he's got his own "hey he's a single's star guys" thing going on. We then see more people behind him because of these things, some are fully for the push, some are more like "ok, now I'll see where this goes" and some are like "finally, he's being more serious and now I can get behind him." They say that's enough for them.

The reality of the situation is that Big E is still that same "jokey and silly Big E" that they disliked. He's still in the New Day (as his shirt states and he's still on their weekly podcast), he's dancing on his new graphic, he's playing around on the mat in the ring like when he was with Kofi and Woods and he's still dancing on camera. He really never changed a thing about his character. All they did was gave him a harder theme, a tagline and darker graphics and that was enough for people get behind him and think he's not like his New Day character. They gave him his chalk back and a new entrance. Still the same due though.

Point is, nah not all babyfaces need an edge to them. All you gotta do is throw some seeds out to people and they'll get behind someone. New theme, new entrance graphics, new gear, new storyline, whatever. You don't have to go full on "hey this guy's the new Austin", you just gotta do something small that latches on enough that people forget that they're that same character which is exactly why more people are behind this new Big E.

[Bang Bang Bart]

Dec 5, 2020 16:16:55 GMT -5 @kn said:

You know, speaking of Kofi, this goes back to the whole "Big E needs to be more serious and stop joking around or I won't take him serious" thing. Since before Kofi won the title we've seen numerous people say that they don't like his "jokey and silly" attitude and because of that they couldn't see him as world champion. Kofi then won the title being true to himself and not only did he have an amazing win but he was generally for the most part a great champion. Still people hated. Alas, he had a ton of support and he was one of the most loved babyfaces on the roster that year regardless of what happened.

Now, here comes Big E with his whole single's run. Since the beginning people took those same comments said to Kofi and applied them to Big E. They say he's got be "more edgy" and he's gotta be "more serious", they say a lot of stuff. Big E beats some people, Big E's left alone on SD and yet people still say these things. Anyway, we get to the latest Smackdown. Big E's got a new harder theme, he's got new graphics, he's got the whole chalk thing and at the end of the day he's got his own "hey he's a single's star guys" thing going on. We then see more people behind him because of these things, some are fully for the push, some are more like "ok, now I'll see where this goes" and some are like "finally, he's being more serious and now I can get behind him." They say that's enough for them.

The reality of the situation is that Big E is still that same "jokey and silly Big E" that they disliked. He's still in the New Day (as his shirt states and he's still on their weekly podcast), he's dancing on his new graphic, he's playing around on the mat in the ring like when he was with Kofi and Woods and he's still dancing on camera. He really never changed a thing about his character. All they did was gave him a harder theme, a tagline and darker graphics and that was enough for people get behind him and think he's not like his New Day character.

Point is, nah not all babyfaces need an edge to them. All you gotta do is throw some seeds out to people and they'll get behind someone. New theme, new entrance graphics, new gear, new storyline, whatever. You don't have to go full on "hey this guy's the new Austin", you just gotta do something small that latches on enough that people forget that they're that same character which is exactly why more people are behind this new Big E.

The true test for Big E will be when he’s pitted against super bastard heel Roman Reigns. The feud these two will have should be amazing if booked correctly.

[Deleted]

Dec 5, 2020 16:29:16 GMT -5 Bang Bang Bart said:

Dec 5, 2020 16:16:55 GMT -5 @kn said:

You know, speaking of Kofi, this goes back to the whole "Big E needs to be more serious and stop joking around or I won't take him serious" thing. Since before Kofi won the title we've seen numerous people say that they don't like his "jokey and silly" attitude and because of that they couldn't see him as world champion. Kofi then won the title being true to himself and not only did he have an amazing win but he was generally for the most part a great champion. Still people hated. Alas, he had a ton of support and he was one of the most loved babyfaces on the roster that year regardless of what happened.

Now, here comes Big E with his whole single's run. Since the beginning people took those same comments said to Kofi and applied them to Big E. They say he's got be "more edgy" and he's gotta be "more serious", they say a lot of stuff. Big E beats some people, Big E's left alone on SD and yet people still say these things. Anyway, we get to the latest Smackdown. Big E's got a new harder theme, he's got new graphics, he's got the whole chalk thing and at the end of the day he's got his own "hey he's a single's star guys" thing going on. We then see more people behind him because of these things, some are fully for the push, some are more like "ok, now I'll see where this goes" and some are like "finally, he's being more serious and now I can get behind him." They say that's enough for them.

The reality of the situation is that Big E is still that same "jokey and silly Big E" that they disliked. He's still in the New Day (as his shirt states and he's still on their weekly podcast), he's dancing on his new graphic, he's playing around on the mat in the ring like when he was with Kofi and Woods and he's still dancing on camera. He really never changed a thing about his character. All they did was gave him a harder theme, a tagline and darker graphics and that was enough for people get behind him and think he's not like his New Day character.

Point is, nah not all babyfaces need an edge to them. All you gotta do is throw some seeds out to people and they'll get behind someone. New theme, new entrance graphics, new gear, new storyline, whatever. You don't have to go full on "hey this guy's the new Austin", you just gotta do something small that latches on enough that people forget that they're that same character which is exactly why more people are behind this new Big E.

The true test for Big E will be when he’s pitted against super bastard heel Roman Reigns. The feud these two will have should be amazing if booked correctly.

I'm not sure when it'll happen but yeah you can see they're heading to that. I say Summerslam next year personally as I want Reigns to walk in and out of WM with the belt. Big E challenging at a Summerslam would be mad dope.

[Deleted]

Also, some faces can be pretty complicated when it comes to morality and crowd interaction.

Stone Cold would stun anyone: face, heel, man, woman, non-wrestler, etc but he would also ask the crowd for approval/guide their energy (If you'd like to see Ol' Stone Cold stomp a mud hole in *insert wrestler*, give me a hell yeah!)