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Post by mauled on Jun 9, 2021 22:33:48 GMT -5
Very good, but HBK was better all around imo. HBK wasn't a technical wrestler. His was the more high flying over the top selling.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jun 10, 2021 3:20:08 GMT -5
Perfect was better imo, Flair in the 70s and 80s was probably better too.
Bret was likely the best for that time period though with Owen a pretty close second.
The Dungeon knew how to make you a wrestler.
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Totorob101
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Post by Totorob101 on Jun 10, 2021 4:20:48 GMT -5
Best of all time,he was so darn good in the ring,so smooth and easy to watch and such a great babyface,probably one of the best faces of all time in my book to.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 10, 2021 4:25:47 GMT -5
Bret was an exemplary storyteller, generous but understated in his selling and he could and did have great matches with every kind of opponent. He had great matches in the Hogan era, the New Generation Era and was key in the beginning of the Attitude Era, three very different types of storytelling.
In my view he is the greatest of all time.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 10, 2021 4:31:16 GMT -5
I like ragging on Bret, and I don't think he's perfect, but he was absolutely fantastic at seeing his opponent and thinking, "How do I best bring out their strengths in this match?" for main event bouts. His matches with Nash were probably Nash's best matches. (Frankly, I actually like them more than most Bret vs Shawn matches, since their starker contrasts made the matches more interesting to me.)
It's kind of funny that the Elite emulate the Kliq in terms of presentation, but they have much more in common with Bret in terms of match ethos.
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Blade
Don Corleone
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Post by Blade on Jun 10, 2021 4:36:21 GMT -5
It's honestly an impossible question to really answer both because wrestling is subjective and because what is valued changes over time. Bret's style worked for the time periods he wrestled in, but if you just plop him down in the 1950s without any style changes it wouldn't. Of course, he could change his style, which leads to the conclusion:
For a number of factors generally considered to be the skills of a "great wrestler", such as a) technical mastery of many different moves, b) the ability to work safely with the opponent, c) the ability to lead a match and express ring psychology, and d) the ability to have good matches with many different opponents, there are people that can approach Bret's level, but absolutely none surpass him. He really was the best ever, it's just that's more a plateau rather than a peak.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 10, 2021 4:45:21 GMT -5
Now, if you were to put 1993 Bret in with 2001 Kurt Angle, I would say Kurt might be the best. But we'll never really know, because we didn't get to see the match. It's possible Bret could have adapted to the Attitude Era wrestling style and hung in there with Kurt. Bret vs. AJ might have been a banger in TNA. Bret vs. Joe. Bret vs. Bryan. Bret vs. Punk. Bret vs. Lesnar. Bret vs. Cole. Bret vs. Cesaro. Bret vs. Omega. Bret vs. Okada. Bret vs. Rollins. As a point of reference, a de-motivated, almost over the hill, 40+ Hart had one of WCW's last great matches when he wrestled near peak Benoit in 1999 at the Owen Hart tribute. I don't doubt he would have pulled out an instant classic with Kurt Angle a few years later if he stayed healthy.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jun 10, 2021 4:56:54 GMT -5
Now, if you were to put 1993 Bret in with 2001 Kurt Angle, I would say Kurt might be the best. But we'll never really know, because we didn't get to see the match. It's possible Bret could have adapted to the Attitude Era wrestling style and hung in there with Kurt. Bret vs. AJ might have been a banger in TNA. Bret vs. Joe. Bret vs. Bryan. Bret vs. Punk. Bret vs. Lesnar. Bret vs. Cole. Bret vs. Cesaro. Bret vs. Omega. Bret vs. Okada. Bret vs. Rollins. As a point of reference, a de-motivated, almost over the hill, 40+ Hart had one of WCW's last great matches when he wrestled near peak Benoit in 1999 at the Owen Hart tribute. I don't doubt he would have pulled out an instant classic with Kurt Angle a few years later if he stayed healthy. Yeah, probably so if Kurt was willing to listen. I am willing to give Kurt the benefit of the doubt, but as evidenced by his TNA run, I think Kurt's sheer amount of raw ability did sometimes make him a little too eager to go all out even when he should have showed more discretion. Probably Kurt's relative lack of experience given his mastery showing there, more talent than discipline. If Bret could reign him in, it'd be a classic. If not, it'd have still been a spectacle.
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Post by lemonyellowson on Jun 10, 2021 6:33:03 GMT -5
Very, very good.
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Post by Bishblast on Jun 10, 2021 6:52:30 GMT -5
His matches were like classic short stories. I’ve actually grown to appreciate what he was doing even more over the years. Yes, his style was very “technical”, but that’s not what made him so great. It was his plotting, formatting of matches, the actual in ring storytelling. And his selling was second to none.
In that regard, I’d put him light years ahead of Omega.
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Jun 10, 2021 7:10:50 GMT -5
Bret was absolutely the best North American pro wrestler in wrestling history - bar none.
He learned the way that any of the "indie darlings" now hope to learn their craft - by getting solid with the basics, then working all around the world and working in those styles. His father taught him to book and stretched him out in the Dungeon, but it was two Japanese friends of Stu's who taught Bret how to work pro wrestling. From there, between his work in Stampede (against opponents from all over), then his work overseas (he worked Europe, Japan, Mexico, Puerto Rico), he learned everything. He was a consummate scholar of the craft and he wasn't afraid to try some new stuff out. All of that made him capable of carrying a broom to a MOTY candidate. He fooled Vince into pushing Tom Magee by carrying his ass throughout that match.
Throughout most of the 1990s, Bret's was the first name most wrestling fans mentioned as the best in the craft.
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Bo Rida
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Post by Bo Rida on Jun 10, 2021 7:48:21 GMT -5
The idea of what separates technical wrestling from the art of working has always been murky to me. Yeah some people say Cesaro is a technical wrestler but he's never fit my own definition. To me it's a focus on applying and escaping submissions and pinning combinations. Good technical wrestling looks crisp, natural and logical, Bret is amongst the very best at this. Bad technical wrestling can be anything from a Rock style badly applied sharpshooter to Del Rio botching and abandoning all logic. The Rock proves you can be bad at technical wrestling but still be a great wrestler. There's also cases like Austin being a good technician but rarely using those skills at his peak. While being good at technical wrestling usually means they're at least a decent wrestler it doesn't always mean they're great overall.
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Post by mauled on Jun 10, 2021 8:30:34 GMT -5
The idea of what separates technical wrestling from the art of working has always been murky to me. Yeah some people say Cesaro is a technical wrestler but he's never fit my own definition. To me it's a focus on applying and escaping submissions and pinning combinations. Good technical wrestling looks crisp, natural and logical, Bret is amongst the very best at this. Bad technical wrestling can be anything from a Rock style badly applied sharpshooter to Del Rio botching and abandoning all logic. The Rock proves you can be bad at technical wrestling but still be a great wrestler. There's also cases like Austin being a good technician but rarely using those skills at his peak. While being good at technical wrestling usually means they're at least a decent wrestler it doesn't always mean they're great overall. Austin was very technical prior to the neck break. Just watch his matches with Bret as an example. Its why Vince originally called him the ring master. After Owen broke his neck he switched to the brawler style for obvious reasons
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Post by Pgarodactyl on Jun 10, 2021 8:53:59 GMT -5
"Technically how good was Bret Hart really ?"
Very. One of - if not THE - the absolute best.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 10, 2021 9:22:43 GMT -5
You don't have wrestling like it is today without Bret Hart. Few people can decisively be said to be so strong an influence that their absence would radically alter the entire course of the business and what future generations did, and I think anyone in that boat is absolutely somebody whose name is in the running for greatest of all time.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jun 10, 2021 10:55:53 GMT -5
I'll have to echo what everyone is saying here. I think Bret is the best in ring worker I've ever seen. His matches were like watching a sport: there was strategy, callbacks, surprises, selling, involvement of the story leading in. Just great stuff. Everything Bret did rewarded people who paid attention. I think that's what I liked best
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Post by corndog on Jun 10, 2021 14:56:10 GMT -5
Bret was good at everything and he was definitely very technically sound as all of his stuff looked good, not just his moves, but his selling as well. You could certainly argue Dynamite Kid was a better technician, as his moves might have looked better, but he worked stronger and would hurt his opponents sometimes. Curt Hennig was right there technically as well and overall about as close to Bret as you could get, although some of his selling could be a little more over the top and less realistic than Bret, but that was more of the WWF's heel selling style. I would say Hennig even had an argument against Bret as an overall wrestler and he was definitely better on the mic. But what made Bret so good was his story telling and the little details in his matches. His matches were always logical and he told some incredible stories with many different styles and wrestlers. He was able to do David/Goliath at it's best with Yokozuna, Nash and Undertaker, then reverse it with 123 Kid working underneath. The Austin/Bret match at Wrestlemania 12 was one of the most brilliant matches I have ever seen with accomplishing the double turn. The crowd was 50/50 at the start and as it went on, the crowd turned on Bret and was fulling supporting Austin by the end.
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Post by redrefugee on Jun 10, 2021 16:16:22 GMT -5
Bret had a wonderful ability of communicating with the fans when he was fighting. Without talking he could make it appear as if he had a strategy for dealing with an opponent, and then execute it, normally by isolating an individual body part either for the sharpshooter or to stop the opponent from using their finisher. And it made everything look calculated and deliberate. You also had a range of "desperation moves". When the match wasn't going well for him, and when he was making his opponent look good, he had a variety of moves he could use to change the momentum of a match without detracting from the opponent. Moves were used for a reason, and never just to show off which some wrestlers just never understand. And he didn't use the same formula. He always changed things depend on who he was fighting and the story he was telling.
We'll never properly know how he would have compared to today's wrestlers. But he was easily one of the best during the multiple eras he performed in.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 10, 2021 16:37:27 GMT -5
As a point of reference, a de-motivated, almost over the hill, 40+ Hart had one of WCW's last great matches when he wrestled near peak Benoit in 1999 at the Owen Hart tribute. I don't doubt he would have pulled out an instant classic with Kurt Angle a few years later if he stayed healthy. Yeah, probably so if Kurt was willing to listen. I am willing to give Kurt the benefit of the doubt, but as evidenced by his TNA run, I think Kurt's sheer amount of raw ability did sometimes make him a little too eager to go all out even when he should have showed more discretion. Probably Kurt's relative lack of experience given his mastery showing there, more talent than discipline. If Bret could reign him in, it'd be a classic. If not, it'd have still been a spectacle. Kurt could bring an all time match out of Kurt in WWE. Kurt was still green enough to just follow the lead. He would most likely looked at it as a great challenge tho I don't know if Bret would have pushed Kurt buttons like HBK and Eddie did but I can see him egging him on
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Post by sportatorium on Jun 10, 2021 17:23:15 GMT -5
I’m glad some have brought Curt Hennig into the conversation. He was the consumate heel wrestler when it came to in ring style. His methodical style & ability to literally force the crowd into getting behind a babyface is simply incredible.
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