PKO
King Koopa
Posts: 12,620
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Post by PKO on Jul 13, 2021 6:25:56 GMT -5
To be honest, I’m surprised the booking didn’t change more during the Thunderdome era. It would have been the perfect time for them to do whatever they (ie Vince) want. Instead it just sort of plodded along like usual.
And WWE haven’t been able to organically let superstars grow for...what...decades? One of my favourite examples was Fandango’s dance actually getting mainstream attention and their idea to capitalise that was to have Jerry Lawler talk about how everyone in the world is fandangoing 🤦🏻♂️
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Post by eJm on Jul 13, 2021 6:36:14 GMT -5
To be honest, I’m surprised the booking didn’t change more during the Thunderdome era. It would have been the perfect time for them to do whatever they (ie Vince) want. Instead it just sort of plodded along like usual. It is sort of weird they mostly kept to the same show as usual when they could have easily tried different stuff, things they couldn’t do because the fans would have crapped over it. It wasn’t like there was going to be a (more) dramatic drop in viewership. I just find it surreal that, given the chance to do a show they want to do, it’s practically the same show it was pre-pandemic which is kind of wild. The last time it happened was Kofi Kingston's chase for and eventual win of the WWE Championship.. Well, that wasn’t organic as much as taking advantage of an opportunity. They took the wrong lessons from Bryan and put them with Kofi, mostly because they saw that worked for him (even though it failed for everyone else they tried it with)
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jul 13, 2021 6:46:36 GMT -5
Never going to happen as they have Cirque Du Soleil operating model and the wrestlers just interchangeably fit into the predefined roles the company wants.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 13, 2021 6:51:00 GMT -5
Not as long as Vince thinks he can "improve" things.
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Post by eJm on Jul 13, 2021 6:59:27 GMT -5
You can never get true organic-ness in wrestling. Not as long as someone is picking who to push, who to win, how much they’re allowed to wrestle, etc. Never. The best you can hope for is someone pushing a talent in a way that you like, and them continuing to do so when you respond positively to that. That seems to be what is deemed “organic” in wrestling. If Vince McMahon were doing that on a regular basis, then you’d be able to trust him to do so. But he isn’t, so you don’t. I think you're vastly oversimplifying the matter, and ignoring the pigheaded nature of WWE booking. Rusev organically grew while the company fought the idea he would get over and gaslit him in him private about that fact. Daniel Bryan was forced into a megastar position when the company didn't want him to be entirely because the audience doubled down on expressing how badly they wanted them. It led to what has been one of their most acclaimed moments in years and to this day stands as such an iconic feelgood moment the company rewrote history to pretend they weren't monstrously out of touch about it. New Day were rejected as faces initially, got over as heels, and returned in a different form as faces doing what they wanted, and became an all-time great team because of what they were able to do. It's true there's someone deciding everything, but there is a natural give and take between booker and audience that is supposed to go on. People who get elevated up the card because they're loved by the audience, people who get big face turn moments because the crowd can't resist them and want to cheer for them, so you let that storyline take its course and follow through. There's ways a booker can deal with that. There's ways you can write a story that leads people to sympathize with someone, or even fall back from a failed and rejected push to try again better. See the redemption of Hangman Page as someone who was called "AEW's Roman" in his early days and now is probably their biggest face, because they reconsidered how they were building him and came back with something else in the long term. Organic isn't impossible just because there's two parties involved. It just means both parties need to turn their key. WWE's problem is that when the audience turns their key, they call in a locksmith to have the locks changed, and when WWE wants to turn its key, it will tell people "You want to turn your key" like a shit cartoon hypnotist. This is true of virtually any storytelling medium to one degree or another, but it is extra important in wrestling, because of how the audience interacts like with the production. This isn't weird nitpicky arcane stuff; wrestling used to work this way, and in non-WWE places it still does. WWE has just gone in a radically different direction and engaged in this behavior more stubbornly than any promotion ever has before. I think what we forget, and most of the industry forgets, is that pro wrestling is arguably the only industry that can change on the fly depending on audience, box office, merchandise etc. Many people come together to make sure a soap storyline can work from the beginning to the end. Many film producers and executives had to make sure Florence Pugh was potentially right to replace Scarlett Johannson in the long term. TV shows film a season in a block and very rarely show any of it to the audience before its done. And any changes that could be made would have to be saved for the next set of recordings, the movie sequel, the next season etc. If some of these things flop, you might not even get a chance of a redo. Pro wrestling doesn't have these disadvantages. If someone is over and you didn't expect them to be, awesome. There's another person you can do stuff with and make money from towards something to make them more over. If you have a guy like Rusev and he's over, well, you can do something with him and he's another name you can promote. Like, a lot of things aren't as simple as that but hell, even the Attitude Era had its share of that stuff. Steve Austin wasn't supposed to be Stone Cold, he was supposed to be The Ringmaster. But they went a different route and hey, it made the company culturally relavent again. And it wasn't even Austin, Rock etc, you took a chance with D'Lo Brown, Val Venis, the f***ing Oddities etc. You made money from many of those guys.
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Post by mistery on Jul 13, 2021 7:50:39 GMT -5
Considering WWE actively goes out of their way to sabotage anyone getting over on their own accord, no.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jul 13, 2021 8:00:45 GMT -5
Batista and Cena were the last two organic stars. I don't know if their current approach to booking will allow that to happen again.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 13, 2021 9:32:25 GMT -5
The irony of course is that you can get someone you want over somewhat organically... you just have to be subtle and plant seeds. Hell they did a good job I felt of building Drew up for Brock. I think the issue (especially in more recent years with Roman as a face) would try to tease the Mania main event would go to someone else only for him to get the push at the last minute... or they'd build someone up to get momentum to then have Roman beat them thinking it would give him momentum going for the title at Mania (see Braun)
In a lot of ways its because WWE has a mindset that only Wrestlemania and Summerslam matter. Which is fine but you cannot have one month builds... and no having monthly ppvs isn't an issue IMO. Use the PPVs to have other titles headline shows and build them up
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Post by Rumble McSkirmish on Jul 13, 2021 12:24:38 GMT -5
Let's just say their independent thought alarm gets quite the workout. The talent must be overstimulated, Bruce remove the colored chalk from the writers room.
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Post by cornettesracket on Jul 13, 2021 12:31:08 GMT -5
Of course we can’t because look who’s in charge of this organisation. A mid seventy year old white guy who at best seems several decades behind what is current in entertainment. I mean with Daniel Bryan they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to making champion. And with Becky Lynch they had a situation fall into their lap with Nia being a clumsy in the ring and injuring Becky, and in the build up mania they made what should have been a relatively good story line over complicated. And that whole women’s main event happened in spite of Stephanie being cast as the all seeing high priestess of all women’s wrestling.
So of f***ing course they can’t and haven’t for years.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 13, 2021 18:16:35 GMT -5
Outside NXT I am kind of amazed anyone is over.
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Post by Hulkshi Tanahashi on Jul 13, 2021 18:19:31 GMT -5
How can anyone ask this question after what happened to Zach Ryder?
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 15, 2021 16:33:18 GMT -5
It’s professional wrestling. Since it’s pre determined, a 100% authentic wrestler is impossible.
I’ve been saying this since forever.
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adamclark52
El Dandy
I'm one with the Force; the Force is with me
Posts: 8,139
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Post by adamclark52 on Jul 16, 2021 1:28:45 GMT -5
I still don’t understand sabotaging your own product but I guess that’s why I’m not a billionaire and he is
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Post by Non Banjoble Tokens on Jul 16, 2021 1:38:33 GMT -5
I for one, would love to be able to plant some seeds in a clay pot filled with dirt and grow my very own Eva Marie without the use of pesticides or other unnatural chemicals.
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Post by Super Duper Dragunov on Jul 16, 2021 3:27:02 GMT -5
It’s professional wrestling. Since it’s pre determined, a 100% authentic wrestler is impossible. I’ve been saying this since forever. Authentic isn't the same as Organic. Is Matt Riddle probably as authentic as he can be to who he really is? Yeah. If he started getting over with the fans and Vince didn't want that would that matter? No. Authenticity isn't the issue to me. It's the capitalizing on the Organic nature of what happens that's the issue.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 16, 2021 4:30:18 GMT -5
It’s professional wrestling. Since it’s pre determined, a 100% authentic wrestler is impossible. I’ve been saying this since forever. Authentic isn't the same as Organic. Is Matt Riddle probably as authentic as he can be to who he really is? Yeah. If he started getting over with the fans and Vince didn't want that would that matter? No. Authenticity isn't the issue to me. It's the capitalizing on the Organic nature of what happens that's the issue. IMO, nothing in wrestling has a fully “organic nature”. There are hundreds of authentic, honest people and workers in the business. None of them will have a completely organic push. The front office is always going to have some input alongside the fans as to who’s in the main event. And honestly, they should. Ideally (not trying to absolve the company for bad decisions), you’d want the higher ups to be able to assess who they’re pushing. Examining whether or not they can handle press meetings and the public, staying healthy, not causing social media mayhem, that they don’t have a Del Rio on their hands, etc. Now however Vince chooses to write each superstar individually, that’s where I think the issues may pop up. But no WWE star has gotten over totally because of fan support without at least someone in management liking them. There were way more people in the back who liked Daniel Bryan than not, and that’s why he won the titles at Mania 30. Hunter’s feelings aside, tons of people were in love with CM Punk behind the scenes, until the very end. We can complain about individual aspects of the pushes, but I doubt there’s been an act Vince signed off on to main event that didn’t appeal to him in some fashion. Even with Warrior eventually pissing him off, he was mad for the guy at the start.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 16, 2021 4:41:28 GMT -5
I still don’t understand sabotaging your own product but I guess that’s why I’m not a billionaire and he is He should be richer than he is. He is rich because his dad was rich. No more no less. And a lot of what we on here think is sabotage is actually them trying to get people over anyway.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jul 16, 2021 4:59:18 GMT -5
I still don’t understand sabotaging your own product but I guess that’s why I’m not a billionaire and he is He should be richer than he is. He is rich because his dad was rich. No more no less. And a lot of what we on here think is sabotage is actually them trying to get people over anyway. Vince got this mindset some point after Ruthless Aggression. That he feels he knows better. Even those his biggest starts where organically made. See how Austin, Rock, Cena, Taker, Batista, and ext got over. It wasn't force feed at the start. Cena became the force feed but he at first got over really well on his own as the rapper. Than WWE took most of that away and made him the Super Cena.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jul 16, 2021 5:08:00 GMT -5
He should be richer than he is. He is rich because his dad was rich. No more no less. And a lot of what we on here think is sabotage is actually them trying to get people over anyway. Vince got this mindset some point after Ruthless Aggression. That he feels he knows better. Even those his biggest starts where organically made. See how Austin, Rock, Cena, Taker, Batista, and ext got over. It wasn't force feed at the start. Cena became the force feed but he at first got over really well on his own as the rapper. Than WWE took most of that away and made him the Super Cena. Except that was the right call in the long run. People talk about Cena “not being organic” and act as if there wasn’t a significant portion of younger fans and women who he was massively over with in the late 2000s, even while the older men were getting on his case.
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