|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 18, 2021 3:26:59 GMT -5
Because I’m seeing it pop up in other wrestling forums and YouTube comments, not just here. And it’s based off of literally no evidence, aside from a small handful of fans who just didn’t find him appealing. And that’s going to happen with any top wrestler. (It’s either that, or they’re Austin fans who are really upset about not having Attitude back).
If you stopped watching because you couldn’t stand Cena, I’m sorry, but you’re in a minority. You guys didn’t exactly turn the tide enough for him to be a failure as an big time attraction. A wrestler who’s truly eroding a business isn’t going to reach the levels of fame he has. If he was as bad as some of his detractors say, WWE would have no merchandise sales to justify sustaining that push and they’d have pulled the plug years ago.
Can’t we at least say that in the long term, John has been far better for WWE’s bottom line than whatever they were trying with Hassan and that terrorist ring? Was he somehow worse than what Russo did to TNA? The Benoit fiasco? The overall evolving landscape of cable, and viewers just cutting the cord? If anything, I think he’s helped keep the company afloat during some of their issues over time. But the way some fans talk, they act like it’s still 2007 when he was so dominant (which was fun as hell, BTW).
Dunno, I still don’t think he’s ever gotten the credit he deserves there. I don’t care about however Vince wants to position him over the other talent, I’m just talking about him as a performer/draw.
|
|
msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,443
|
Post by msc on Aug 18, 2021 3:47:43 GMT -5
But he...did...drive fans away. Or to be more specific, his booking and the length of time of it did. Most of the wrestling fans I know who lasted post-Attitude era then fell away from it cited Cena as one of their reasons for falling out with it. Including the one I'm married to. The problem with absolute statements is they are open to being wrong by specifics...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 3:49:58 GMT -5
Wait, people say this? This is a thing? As someone who has always been very interested in studying ratings and buyrates in wrestling, it's a provable fact that John Cena is a draw. In fact, Cena has pretty much been the only guy in WWE who has been a difference maker. Going simply by the ratings. Everyone else on the roster has been expendable, except for John Cena who moves the needle. You can and look back at every time Cena has come back to the product after an extended absence, and there was a bump in the ratings. And this is consistent, every time. Cena was the one who moved the needle. I think Brock did at first, and then it fizzled out. The Rock obviously was a difference maker, a big one. But out of the active roster - while he still was - I don't think anyone else has made a damn bit of difference except Cena. And this is not some opinion post, it's simply what I've gathered from the ratings and buyrates, and anyone can go and take a look.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 18, 2021 3:53:51 GMT -5
Wait, people say this? This is a thing? As someone who has always been very interested in studying ratings and buyrates in wrestling, it's a provable fact that John Cena is a draw. In fact, Cena has pretty much been the only guy in WWE who has been a difference maker. Going simply by the ratings. Everyone else on the roster has been expendable, except for John Cena who moves the needle. You can and look back at every time Cena has come back to the product after an extended absence, and there was a bump in the ratings. And this is consistent, every time. Cena was the one who moved the needle. I think Brock did at first, and then it fizzled out. The Rock obviously was a difference maker, a big one. But out of the active roster - while he still was - I don't think anyone else has made a damn bit of difference except Cena. And this is not some opinion post, it's simply what I've gathered from the ratings and buyrates, and anyone can go and take a look. Exactly. All I’m saying is that a lot of his haters like to act like he hasn’t been a net gain for pro wrestling, or that he can’t move the needle over the brand name. There’s not much proof for that.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 18, 2021 4:00:00 GMT -5
Also, this isn’t about the pushes of other stars or if other people would have drawn in that position. I’m not making an argument in favor of “one top star or bust” bookings. If I was in charge of WWE at the time, I probably would have picked at least three more guys for the main event scene, something akin to a “Four Pillars” concept. But what’s done is done- I’m just focusing on how well Cena did in that role.
|
|
|
Post by thechase on Aug 18, 2021 4:04:14 GMT -5
A minority isn't necessarily wrong or insignificant, nor should they be made to feel that way.
Cena being detrimental to the business is an opinion also shared at one point by Batista, who claimed John took the 'edge' away from the product.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 4:08:26 GMT -5
There's also the fact that Cena was the #1 merch seller pretty consistently for a long time. I think Punk got ahead of him for a little while? But Cena was the top dog in merch sales for so long, it's undeniable that he was extremely popular. Now, someone could argue that even though Cena moved the needle, the overall ratings could have been bigger with someone else on top, given the chance. And I guess? It's impossible to know. At best, this is all speculation. But if not for Cena, who then? That's me legitimately asking. Punk was sort of kind of given the ball, but they also did pull the rug from under him, so it's not a totally fair comparison. But I feel the need to point out that Punk often lost viewers when his segments were on during his long title reign. But I want to press this: the rug was pulled from under him, so is that on him or the company, who knows. After Money in the Bank, the Pipebomb angle failed to draw, and SummerSlam 2011 was the worst performing SummerSlam since 1997, which is an awful performance, embarrassing. Now, Cena was the other half of that main event, it's fair to point out. I am just making the point that the Pipebomb angle was cooled off already back then. And then there was Bryan who seemed extremely and insanely popular, but I don't remember him really being a difference maker, either. Could he have been had he not gotten injured? Again, who knows. Both Punk and Bryan were victims of circumstance so it's really hard to tell. I'm probably the biggest Roman Reigns fan here; I liked him when everyone hated him, I just always liked Roman, Roman's my guy. Shield, mega babyface push, this most recent heel run, I love me some Roman, I think he has all the tools and he's one of the best in the company these past 20 years or so. But I don't think anyone can claim he has performed like John Cena as the face of the company. Funnily enough, Roman has also had bad circumstances knock him down a peg or two. Orton? Lost viewers every time he was pushed as the face of the company, I believe. Batista was always mega popular, but his age worked against him, I feel. And his run was also riddled with injuries, unfortunately. Love me some Big Dave, still.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 18, 2021 4:08:56 GMT -5
A minority isn't necessarily wrong or insignificant, nor should they be made to feel that way. Cena being detrimental to the business is an opinion also shared at one point by Batista, who claimed John took the 'edge' away from the product. And I think Batista is wrong there. That’s his opinion, not automatically based in fact simply because he’s in the ring with him.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 4:17:38 GMT -5
That's not to say that I necessarily agree with the long-reigning, dominant babyface world champion. Admittedly, when WWF and Crockett were going head to head, that was the WWF formula, and it did prove superior, so there's that. It is an argument for that formula. But there was a lot of other factors at play, too. I'm just more of an NWA guy myself, so, to me, the dominant champion is more of a heel trope, and I think you can be more flexible in your booking with a heel on top with the babyfaces getting the occasional reign to give hope to the crowd just as things are about to get too miserable. And the chasing babyface is just more compelling television during this era of weekly episodic television. The multi-year babyface champion in Hulk Hogan worked better in an era where you didn't see the champion every week, but rather he was this mythical being who showed up when it was big time. But that's just how I see it.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 18, 2021 4:28:57 GMT -5
I think there’s too many hours in current television to have a face champion, or any champion to sustain a Hogan style infrequency, so that’s why I brought up the pillar concept in my hypothetical, in order to keep a title scene interesting with a regular face titleholder. I do love a good babyface chase but I’m not sure it has to be the only booking option available in modern wrestling.
Who to put in those pillar positions alongside a Cena style top face? One could take all day and it’d just be our favorites, but I do see the fact he built up (in spite of whatever Vince gave him to do that week, or whoever he went over) enough of a following in wrestling to be able to cross over into the mainstream as proof the six month-plus face champ is at least doable from a business standpoint.
|
|
Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 22,715
|
Post by Legion on Aug 18, 2021 4:53:39 GMT -5
I think being away has helped him; you cant miss what never leaves and so by leaving he became something some people might miss.
But, I do think his booking from 2007 through 2010 was so Super-Cena levels of dull and protection, it absolutely drove some fans away.
Yet, equally, he definitely brought in a lot of kids who bought merchandise and loved the guy, but never count in demos or ratings.
So, swings and roundabouts.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Aug 18, 2021 4:53:49 GMT -5
For the record, I’ve always argued Cena was the reason ratings kept how they did for a long time because he was enough of a star to keep those watching. Especially with how ratings were slowly dropping from 2001 onwards (Smackdown was doing pretty well during the Smackdown 6 era but management didn’t like Smackdown beating Raw which…why? But whatever) and at the very least, there was an actual non Austin/Taker/HHH guy on top of the card who wasn’t a blast from the past or whatever.
What was the thing that drove away fans? The Authority. And that can be proven factually. The show went from doing 4s to 2s in two years which is complete lunacy to even comprehend. The fact they never even did much about it is even harder to comprehend especially considering in 2001, they were plugging the ratings holes with “LOOK! WE’RE DOING A TLC MATCH ON NATIONAL TV, YOU LOVE THOSE!” and such.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 5:00:08 GMT -5
What was the thing that drove away fans? The Authority. And that can be proven factually. The show went from doing 4s to 2s in two years which is complete lunacy to even comprehend.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 18, 2021 5:01:53 GMT -5
Yeah, I felt the Authority stuff was a huge downturn for them, and Roman was too much of an unproven commodity with fans to be much of a help that early. Bryan's injuries and absence until 2018 put a bad taste in fans' mouths, and Cena was going more Hollywood and hadn't been booked to feel as special around that time. It was a bad combination.
One thing I appreciated about the 2006-2007 run was how if they couldn't make him super-sympathetic with Edge bullying his dad, they at least positioned Cena as the watermark star to beat to become the top guy. They needed more people at the top of the card alongside Cena and Edge to really make it explode, but he was gradually building up a following.
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 18, 2021 5:29:15 GMT -5
Honestly even when Cena was booed the most the one thing I always give him credit for is he could make any match feel big with his promos. The issue for Cena was very much the same as Roman in that how the matches were structured for them to win, the result went over like a fart in church.
|
|
Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 22,715
|
Post by Legion on Aug 18, 2021 5:52:07 GMT -5
For the record, I’ve always argued Cena was the reason ratings kept how they did for a long time because he was enough of a star to keep those watching. Especially with how ratings were slowly dropping from 2001 onwards (Smackdown was doing pretty well during the Smackdown 6 era but management didn’t like Smackdown beating Raw which…why? But whatever) and at the very least, there was an actual non Austin/Taker/HHH guy on top of the card who wasn’t a blast from the past or whatever. What was the thing that drove away fans? The Authority. And that can be proven factually. The show went from doing 4s to 2s in two years which is complete lunacy to even comprehend. The fact they never even did much about it is even harder to comprehend especially considering in 2001, they were plugging the ratings holes with “LOOK! WE’RE DOING A TLC MATCH ON NATIONAL TV, YOU LOVE THOSE!” and such. I think that exacerbated a decline Super Cena started. I know full well Cena's booking in 2007-2010 turned fans away, as it turned me away and a group of people I used to watch with. I'm assuming that the switch from Super Hero booking to Super Villain booking just turned off more people, and likely the kids that Cena had brought in for them (though again, Roman captured a fraction of that same child audience). When I came back to WWE at the start of the pandemic, I was pleased to see Super Cena was no longer a big focus, and enjoyed seeing him vanish after the Fun House match - but I've also marked to see him return, because he was away long enough + years of me not watching for me to care again. If he over stays his welcome and his booking returns to Super Cena levels of domination, I'll soon get bored of that.
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Aug 18, 2021 5:56:24 GMT -5
Some fans may have been turned off and stopped watching during his time on top (and that’s probably true for most eras), but the ratings/metrics actually stayed pretty stable during his run so he at least brought in new fans if he was driving away older fans.
|
|
Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 23,517
|
Post by Bo Rida on Aug 18, 2021 5:56:33 GMT -5
Hogan has driven me away from 3 promotions, temporarily in wwe's case but more permanently for wcw and TNA. I don't for one moment suggest that he was never a draw, untalented and shouldn't have been pushed.
It's similar with Cena, no doubt he drove some away but that doesn't mean he wasn't a draw overall. I doubt there's a champion that hasn't driven someone away.
They are often a symptom more than a cause though. The figurehead of what's wrong with a show.
|
|
|
Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Aug 18, 2021 6:09:54 GMT -5
It can both be true that Cena (and his booking more specifically) pushed a chunk of fans away from the product and that Cena was a draw for a lot of other fans and WWE hasn't been able to replicate his success since he went part time.
|
|
4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,673
|
Post by 4real on Aug 18, 2021 6:29:04 GMT -5
It can both be true that Cena (and his booking more specifically) pushed a chunk of fans away from the product and that Cena was a draw for a lot of other fans and WWE hasn't been able to replicate his success since he went part time. I think this is pretty much my take. I was 20 at the height of the Cena super push of 05 and he just wasn’t cool to me at all but no doubt to younger fans he was a hero on par with Hogan in the 80’s. At that point I wanted more technical wrestlers like Angle, Christian & Benoit at the top & TNA was providing an excellent alternative with the X Division & Hardcore stuff they were doing. 05-07 in particular was a difficult time in feeling like WWE weren’t listening to fans who were dissatisfied with the Cena face push but I would still watch the shows and the best live match I’ve ever seen involved Cena (vs HBK in London in 07). Cena didn’t drive me away, he made things less enjoyable yes but he didn’t drive me away. It’s also arguable the 07 Lashley mega push was even worse until WWE cut him. The shows were still enjoyable to an extent. It’s only now where I feel Raw is largely unwatchable and a waste of time. Not everyone is a fan of John Cena and even now I hate that he’s back but he’s a draw there’s no denying that.
|
|