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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Aug 18, 2021 6:40:37 GMT -5
It can both be true that Cena (and his booking more specifically) pushed a chunk of fans away from the product and that Cena was a draw for a lot of other fans and WWE hasn't been able to replicate his success since he went part time. I think this is pretty much my take. I was 20 at the height of the Cena super push of 05 and he just wasn’t cool to me at all but no doubt to younger fans he was a hero on par with Hogan in the 80’s. At that point I wanted more technical wrestlers like Angle, Christian & Benoit at the top & TNA was providing an excellent alternative with the X Division & Hardcore stuff they were doing. 05-07 in particular was a difficult time in feeling like WWE weren’t listening to fans who were dissatisfied with the Cena face push but I would still watch the shows and the best live match I’ve ever seen involved Cena (vs HBK in London in 07). Cena didn’t drive me away, he made things less enjoyable yes but he didn’t drive me away. It’s also arguable the 07 Lashley mega push was even worse until WWE cut him. The shows were still enjoyable to an extent. It’s only now where I feel Raw is largely unwatchable and a waste of time. Not everyone is a fan of John Cena and even now I hate that he’s back but he’s a draw there’s no denying that. See this I can understand. I don't deny some fans probably moved away because they didn't like Cena as the top guy, my main point in the OP was how some act as if he was the sole culprit for their current downturn, and not a wide variety of other factors. I'm pretty sure there were fans in the 50s who had enough of Lou Thesz and turned the TV off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 6:51:32 GMT -5
I think Cena's time on top really coincides with a time when WWE's TV just started to get very, very tired. I mean, I'm sure there are people who just didn't like Cena, and probably left because of Cena. But the WWE hasn't really evolved in any significant way since February of 1997 where they moved RAW to two hours and adopted the Nitro television format, which just became THE wrestling television format to this day. The roster has changed, but the TV is just the same, it always has been. And we all love wrestling, but let's face it: there's a lot of just bad stuff in wrestling; poorly written dialogue, nonsensical storylines, bad acting... as wrestling continued on this path, other television started to rise and catch fire. In 1990, Twin Peaks revolutionized television with its episodic storytelling, but it took a long time for the whole of the television industry to catch up to Lynch and Frost's vision - and when they did, I would argue that binge-watching television dramas slowly began to overshadow movies as the preferred television entertainment.
What I'm trying to say is, whereas WWE has not evolved AT ALL since the aforementioned February of 1997, television has really upped its game with these kickass, excellently written, amazingly acted, thrilling, exciting television shows that give top quality storytelling to the audience, and that stuff is on multiple channels. Something like Game of Thrones wasn't just a TV show, it was a cultural event basically. So now that there is this really well made TV storytelling available, why would anyone pick wrestling over that? The audience that was grabbed by the attitude era wasn't there for the wrestling, per se, wrestling just happened to be there as a form of episodic storytelling - I would argue.
There is simply less demand for wrestling, which, compared to all the other great TV shows out there, is really low quality as far as storytelling, writing, and acting goes. At least the WWE.
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Post by eJm on Aug 18, 2021 7:33:03 GMT -5
I think Cena just made WWE complacent in changing the show structure or how it was. None of this is his fault specifically but if someone like Cena comes along and makes you a lot of money, why would you change how you’re working when it’s clearly working in that sense?
Cena should have been someone you made a product around rather than fitted his square peg into your round hole.
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Post by Tenshigure on Aug 18, 2021 7:49:54 GMT -5
I mean...this whole topic overlooks the fact that Cena's run coincides with the darkest mark in professional wrestling history taking place during it. If the casual fan hadn't already been tuning out before June 2007, they sure as hell were distancing themselves afterwards.
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krozor
Don Corleone
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Post by krozor on Aug 18, 2021 7:51:11 GMT -5
You know what, I'll do it, I'll say it: John Cena was better for the WWE's bottom line than booking Muhammad Hassan to recreate a terrorist attack and the tragic incident where an active wrestler killed his own family.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 8:17:44 GMT -5
I mean Cena did drive fans away though. That is obvious enough from looking at things that WWE themselves did during that time and the reactions it got. Edge won his first title from Cena and the ratings were huge for his whole 3 week run, and went right back down when Cena won it back from him. One Night Stand was essentially built upon the idea of getting back lapsed fans who didn't like the way the product was at the time, of which Cena was the face of.
Cena is obviously a ratings draw, but I don't know why we need to stop saying Cena drove away fans when he did. It's actually a decently large part of his legacy. The men booing him and the women/children cheering him was essentially forced to be part of his gimmick. Not everyone who was booing him in 2006 stuck around another 15 years.
Cena did great for the time he was on top and had to hold the company up while they went through some awful years, but lets not pretend he wasn't a reason people stopped watching. There is absolutely evidence of that. Cena's amazing, we don't need to lie to make him look better than he is.
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Post by Pooh Carlson on Aug 18, 2021 8:39:12 GMT -5
Cena didn't drive me away altogether, but he absolutely became a channel changer. I've said several times that I missed both the Nexus debut and the pipe bomb because I didn't want to watch another Cena main event.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 18, 2021 9:18:13 GMT -5
Cena may have driven some fans away, but if anything is very obvious about his Full time run being over, it is that he kept way more than he drove away.
And even the ones you could potentially lay at his door - the extra million who watched Raw when Edge won the title say - are actually the bookers' fault not his anyway. No way was John banging on Vince's door to ask him for the strap back three weeks after winning it.
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Post by Dave the Dave on Aug 18, 2021 9:54:57 GMT -5
The Authority coupled with Roman’s insufferable push drove me away. The HHH reign of terror drove me away as a kid.
So, Cena’s time on top is when I watched WWE the most. BUT, if a bunch of people say he drove them away, then he did right? Like, you can’t argue their personal take?
But to the overall driving of fans, wrestling fans need to realize, ratings are going down because of the way people watch things now. It’s no one’s fault really. Should WWE try to do better? Yes. Will it help ratings? Probably not.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Aug 18, 2021 10:18:57 GMT -5
I don’t necessarily think John Cena personally is to blame for the decades-long decline in WWE quality and viewership, but he was the figurehead of the company during the time when it became obvious to a large group of fans that WWE was going to book the product the way they wanted to regardless of how it was received. He also was the figurehead when the product switched to PG. It’s a testament to Cena that he was able to navigate those waters as well as he did. With that being said, his constant main event presence during these transitions, combined with his less-edgy character compared to Austin, Rock and others who were popular when many fans first started watching led many people to associate him with with the decline of WWE and their loss of WWE fandom. Personally, I like Cena and I think he’s a much better wrestler than his critics give him credit for. However, I’d be lying if I said I don’t strongly associate him with decline in the quality of WWE and my personal fandom. When his music hits, I have a gut reaction of minor annoyance.
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thehottag
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Post by thehottag on Aug 18, 2021 10:20:51 GMT -5
There were many reasons why people stopped watching over this time (including, for some, Cena) but the problem is he was the face & ambassador of the brand. To many, like Hogan in the '80s, the success (or lack thereof) of the company is inextricably linked to the performer, because they're the one who is pushed front & centre.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 10:31:52 GMT -5
It is what it is. He drove some people away, drew others in, and likely stayed on top for too long.
But then, nearly anyone that could have replaced him during that time either had a falling out with the company or retired due to injury. And I doubt anyone else that could have replaced him but never received the push could have done significantly better. Zack Ryder isn't leading a pro wrestling renaissance.
Ratings are an inherently flawed way to measure success. Ratings going down compared to the Attitude Era doesn't account for how that booking style metaphorically burned and salted the Earth due to its over the top nature. It doesn't factor in a recession, the increase of other entertainment venues, and the outdated Nielsen ratings system.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 18, 2021 10:36:58 GMT -5
Cena didn't do it personally, but WWE's booking of him did.
I don't dislike John Cena, and I do agree he deserved to be the top guy, but not at the expense of almost everyone else.
The WWE's post Attitude Era mindset of creating "the guy" as opposed to several "guys" is one of the reasons that WWE is creatively dead, and has been so reliant on Attitude Era part timers well past their prime.
They learned nothing, and repeated their mistakes with Roman Reigns,
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dbrussel
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Post by dbrussel on Aug 18, 2021 10:41:58 GMT -5
Of course Cena drove fans away. Otherwise AEW wouldnt have those ratings.
But he's not the only one in the last decade.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 10:44:18 GMT -5
Of course Cena drove fans away. Otherwise AEW wouldnt have those ratings. But he's not the only one in the last decade. You’re implying people who watch AEW don’t watch WWE. I bet there’s a lot of overlap.
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kidkamikaze10
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Aug 18, 2021 10:51:21 GMT -5
Booking drove fans away. Happened with HHH, happened less with Cena, happened with Roman.
But if the three? Triple H should get more flack than Cena and Roman. Both in 2003 and the Authority, so I mean the wrestler/character, not NXT Dad.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Aug 18, 2021 10:56:50 GMT -5
Cena (or more accurately his booking) drove away literally every single wrestling fan I've ever known. Without exception. One or two have come back for a big return or event but they all left as regular viewers during Cena's Super Push. I've also met many people at non-WWE events who have told me the exact same thing. It's not as simple as saying he drove viewers away but for many of us the anecdotal evidence does support this.
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Post by polarbearpete on Aug 18, 2021 11:05:00 GMT -5
Just looking at Raw’s ratings, here are the average ratings through his run on top:
2004: 3.67 2005: 3.81 2006: 3.90 2007: 3.61 2008: 3.27 2009: 3.57 2010: 3.28 2011: 3.21 2012: 3.00 2013: 3.01
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nisidhe
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Post by nisidhe on Aug 18, 2021 11:21:07 GMT -5
Hogan has driven me away from 3 promotions, temporarily in wwe's case but more permanently for wcw and TNA. I don't for one moment suggest that he was never a draw, untalented and shouldn't have been pushed. It's similar with Cena, no doubt he drove some away but that doesn't mean he wasn't a draw overall. I doubt there's a champion that hasn't driven someone away. They are often a symptom more than a cause though. The figurehead of what's wrong with a show. Hogan was absolutely a huge draw - back in the 1980s when he was the top of the mountain and could prove it. That appeal dropped off during the 1990s as fans moved away from the oversized, over-roided look and instead started seeing discipline and workrate as goods as much as image. By the time he showed up initially in WCW the biggest question on everyone's minds was "Why?" Yes, the nWo took off, but Hogan was not necessarily the only force driving that bus. When he showed up at TNA, he and the others who formed Aces and Eights almost drove that promotion into the ground. Cena's run was a little different in a number of ways. First, he has _never_ appeared anywhere besides OVW and WWE. Second, Vince never really sought a replacement for Cena _while_ Cena was dominant, the way he'd done with Hogan. Whatever Cena has been like for politicking, he seems to have recognized that someone would come up to take his place someday and he has largely accepted that fact. Third, he has been very careful with his image during the last ten years and, given what we've seen and heard even over the past year, the likelihood of any new scandals involving Cena coming to light is very, _very_ low. While absence can make the heart grow fonder, I'd rather see a random Cena showing up than a random Hogan. There are reasons for that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 11:21:28 GMT -5
Just looking at Raw’s ratings, here are the average ratings through his run on top: 2004: 3.67 2005: 3.81 2006: 3.90 2007: 3.61 2008: 3.27 2009: 3.57 2010: 3.28 2011: 3.21 2012: 3.00 2013: 3.01 So, in 2005 he drew over 2004. And the boost grew into 2006. In 2007 there’s a dip, some of it can be due to Benoit; I know I stopped watching regularly after that. In 2008, Cena wasn’t really on top, he took a backseat, at least in the title picture, and he got injured. 2008 on RAW was about the Jericho and Michaels thing, and Punk, I think. In 2009, Cena was once again more heavily featured, I think - although I can’t comment because the guest host stuff drove me away for at least half a year. I have also no idea what happened in 2010 post-Mania, and that’s where my memories get kinda muddled anyway.
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