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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 30, 2021 7:16:00 GMT -5
With the proviso that this may not be completely reliable, a little more information on how sudden it was:
Worth noting that "story" is from Bodyslam.net who more often than not prints all sorts of garbage for clicks. I'd wait for SRS before thinking it's true. You'd think he would have mentioned this when he broke that she requested her release.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 30, 2021 7:54:40 GMT -5
Meltzer said only thing he has heard was burnout. He also said some people he talked to feel that her booking was q big reason for that (he did say he is working to confirm that but there are those that feel that she was just done)
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Post by Welfare Willis on Dec 30, 2021 8:16:16 GMT -5
Meltzer said only thing he has heard was burnout. He also said some people he talked to feel that her booking was q big reason for that (he did say he is working to confirm that but there are those that feel that she was just done) I can imagine unless you're Roman or Brock that the bullshit you have to go through is enough to bury someone alive. Look at Mox or Punk for how crazy even those near the top have to go through.
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Post by sunnytaker on Dec 30, 2021 8:20:39 GMT -5
didn;t get to page 16 so guessing it's already been aid, but it seems like she asked for her release and was granted it. allegedly the wwe has forced their own hand now when it comes to people asking for their release due to all their "budget consideration" cuts they've made this year so they can;t easily refuse to grant releases now since it would be helping their "budget situation with one less person on the payroll if someone asks"
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 30, 2021 8:56:08 GMT -5
Meltzer also said that WWE is about feeding their top stars, and they only want to book a few top stars.
98% of the time, they cool is not to “elevate” new people in these feuds. It’s all about protecting their already established stars.
Toni is 26 years old, arguably the prime years of her career. I could see her maybe thinking she does not want to spend those best years being fed to the older stars endlessly, or stuck in catering (which she said in an interview recently bummed her out this year) for long stretches of time.
And she’d rather leave and try her luck somewhere else. Just a theory I suppose, but I could see it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 9:06:17 GMT -5
Toni's my second favorite female wrestler, right behind Sasha, but she has major holes in her game she needs to fix in terms of her character and promo game. That's why I'm excited to see her go to AEW hopefully. She'll get a chance to work on all that stuff.
She SHOULD have had more time to figure that out in NXT instead of not being used for months at a time.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 30, 2021 9:07:14 GMT -5
Meltzer also said that WWE is about feeding their top stars, and they only want to book a few top stars. 08% of the time, they cool is not to “elevate” new people in these feuds. It’s all about protecting their already established stars. Toni is 26 years old, arguably the prime years of her career. I could see her maybe thinking she does not want to spend those best years being fed to the older stars endlessly, or stuck in catering (which she said in an interview recently bummed her out this year) for long stretches of time. And she’d rather leave and try her luck somewhere else. Just a theory I suppose, but I could see it. Vince has learned nothing from the last 20 years. When Austin and Rock left all he had were leftover Attitude stars like Angle and Triple H, stars he had buried into mid card acts like Jericho and Benoit and a bunch of green OVW guys. Then when he managed to create some new stars and rebuild his main event (while he lost more than half his audience) he coasted on them again. Potential stars were buried and fired because the Cena and Batista gravy train was never going to end. Well it did. Now yet again he has a reliable main event so the entire future gets buried by them so by the time you need them they are either worthless or left for greener pastures.
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Post by mistery on Dec 30, 2021 9:07:28 GMT -5
Toni's my second favorite female wrestler, right behind Sasha, but she has major holes in her game she needs to fix in terms of her character and promo game. That's why I'm excited to see her go to AEW hopefully. She'll get a chance to work on all that stuff. She SHOULD have had more time to figure that out in NXT instead of not being used for months at a time. I mean...if she couldn't fix those holes in other promotions (Progress and STARDOM spring to mind as two of the bigger ones), I don't think AEW is going to make a difference. This is just my opinion, but I feel like Toni has already hit her peak. Even outside of WWE she had a really bad tendency to underwhelm compared to all the hype she got. She's a victim of the hype machine.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 30, 2021 9:14:46 GMT -5
I actually thought her promo and character work improved significantly. And let’s be honest, for as much as WWE defenders like to bring up “character” it’s not like a lot of their characters, even their top ones, are super interesting. Charlotte being the prime example of this, yet they keep pushing her down people’s throats endlessly.
And we’ve seen MANY times they being a brilliant promo is not ESSENTIAL for getting over or being a star IF they book to your strengths.
I feel like those arguments have been shown to have less weight to them these days than they ever have before of anything.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 30, 2021 9:53:33 GMT -5
Meltzer also said that WWE is about feeding their top stars, and they only want to book a few top stars. 08% of the time, they cool is not to “elevate” new people in these feuds. It’s all about protecting their already established stars. Toni is 26 years old, arguably the prime years of her career. I could see her maybe thinking she does not want to spend those best years being fed to the older stars endlessly, or stuck in catering (which she said in an interview recently bummed her out this year) for long stretches of time. And she’d rather leave and try her luck somewhere else. Just a theory I suppose, but I could see it. There's so much to unpack with that concept, if it's indeed what Meltzer is hearing. Like, said it before, but I totally get wanting to have a small handful of absolute tip-top stars. Again, it makes sense: having a top tier of main eventers is a smart way to promote your best talent, get them over as stars, and make them marketable draws, something that's been done over and over again through history. Yet at the same time it's painfully obvious WWE doesn't want people to get over too much, lest they become a bigger draw than "the brand". That's what gave the world Roman's stop-and-start pushes to the top, Charlotte and Sasha's reigns that would last a week or so each, marquee matches ending in utter BS and ridiculously (e.g. DQs in Hell in a Cell), all the greatest hits. Some of those could be explained as part of a story, but Roman's eventual heel turn was clearly never the plan originally, and it's not like Charlotte or Sasha managing to finally hold the title longer than a few days was treated as a major character inflection point or something, they're just kind of things that happened at some point. But regardless of all of that, you can't have a roster the size of the one WWE has or produce the number of hours of TV content WWE does without having a vibrant midcard scene for all of your divisions; your small stable of main eventers simply can't fill up 7 or whatever hours of content without being stretched so thin that they fall apart. You need the conflicts that happen beneath the main event scene to feel like they matter; that the midcard can be filled with people just a key win or two away from competing for a top spot, or with young wrestlers on the rise, or with veterans adapting to being past their physical primes, or with goofy gimmick acts that are just plain entertaining, and most importantly with stories that feel like they're getting these different people into the positions you need them to be in, even if they never lay a finger on a top title for their entire careers. Instead, the idea has seemingly fallen into "you're not one of our top priorities, and that means you don't matter. Have fun in catering." I've made this point before, but pro wrestlers can often be pretty easy to please; as long as they're getting to perform for a crowd and tell stories through their art and physical performances, they tend to be pretty happy. It's why there are plenty of people who've settled into being midcarders or who wrestle on smaller-crowd shows who are fine with it; they're still making a living doing what they love, who cares if they don't end up holding a big prop over their shoulder often enough when they're living the life they've worked so hard to attain? What do you have when you've taken that latter option away? What happens when you take the kayfabe of "if you're not here to be world champion, what are you doing here at all?" and actually apply it as a real life booking philosophy? You end up with a small handful of people who are getting fulfillment out of their work, and a load of people who now dread not necessarily being booked poorly (though that's something people can certainly dread with good reason), but not being booked at all. Side note, but the whole "we couldn't turn down a request for a release after firing so many people" doesn't really hold a lot of water for me as of this moment; given how much Omicron is raging at the moment, WWE would actually have some justification in saying to someone like Toni "look, we'd be glad to discuss this later, but we're losing people left and right to COVID protocols and need to at least get through the winter with enough wrestlers around to run a show". That doesn't mean I think WWE actually fired Toni, I totally believe the reports she asked for her release, but combined with the rumors she flew herself home on her own dime without really talking to people about it, things feel a little stranger than that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2021 10:11:13 GMT -5
I actually thought her promo and character work improved significantly. And let’s be honest, for as much as WWE defenders like to bring up “character” it’s not like a lot of their characters, even their top ones, are super interesting. Charlotte being the prime example of this, yet they keep pushing her down people’s throats endlessly. And we’ve seen MANY times they being a brilliant promo is not ESSENTIAL for getting over or being a star IF they book to your strengths. I feel like those arguments have been shown to have less weight to them these days than they ever have before of anything. I actually raised this issue and I totally agree with you still. For all the talk about Vince being the greatest promoter ever, his inability to adapt to the strengths and weaknesses of individual performers is very clear. If someone isn't a great talker...don't have them out on TV cutting promos until they are.
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Post by Mochi Lone Wolf on Dec 30, 2021 10:15:32 GMT -5
Good for her. If you’re burned out by working your life out for a company that only cares about feeding their top stars, and there are other options out there? Get out of there.
Vince needs more people on his roster who are willing to say “Doesn’t work for me, brother.” these days. That’s the only way he gets the hint.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 30, 2021 10:17:21 GMT -5
Meltzer said only thing he has heard was burnout. He also said some people he talked to feel that her booking was q big reason for that (he did say he is working to confirm that but there are those that feel that she was just done) I can imagine unless you're Roman or Brock that the bullshit you have to go through is enough to bury someone alive. Look at Mox or Punk for how crazy even those near the top have to go through. I think the big issue for most is they want to do something. Rhyno when he left said that WWE offered him a big deal but they had no plan for him... he even offered to be a coach that only worked the Florida house show loop with the PC wrestlers and WWE didn't like that so he left cause he didn't want to be stuck at home. Heck Eric Young said something similar. I think Toni may be a similar situation to Buddy Murphy where they weren't u happy but they just felt like they were spinning their wheels with no end in sight which was probably exhausting. But I think that's the big issue in WWE is that they don't really have plans for everybody. Of course not everybody can be pushed but there is a way to make it evident someone is gonna be someone worth watching without actually doing an obvious push (see Dante Martin)
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Post by thehottag on Dec 30, 2021 10:37:21 GMT -5
HMARK made a great point about the necessity of a midcard. The term 'midcarder' is used as an insult in WWE, but if you think of the most successful eras in wrestling history, they have always had a thriving mid-card, tag division, etc. Not only is it more stars you can promote, but it's also where your next crop of main-eventers are likely to come from.
If you recall, WWE once released a DVD called 'Monday Night War'. Most people remember it for the infamous 'confused, yet interested' line, but there are a couple of other points made which are worth sharing.
The first was Jim Ross, who said one of the major problems WCW had was they never made new stars as they went along. They were content with the names at the top, & nobody else could hang with that elite group (bar Goldberg). This obviously has parallels today, with WWE only interested in it's top stars right now looking good, screw elevating anyone.
The second comes from Rey Mysterio, who laments that he & the other cruiserweights would look at the Fed & watch Edge, Christian, Matt & Jeff get presented as stars. He said there was no reason he couldn't be a star in WCW too. This, too, draws parallels with the way WWE treats it's midcard today.
The reason I bring this up isn't just because WWE have forgotten the lessons of the past, but they are the very company which created this DVD, conducted these interviews, approved it for release, still repeats those very errors.
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 30, 2021 10:43:23 GMT -5
When I keep saying that Charlotte’s booking HURTS the women’s division these days, well here’s another example. Let’s also remember how she crushed Rhea and Nikki’s momentum earlier this year as well.
Becky at least TRIES a bit more to make her opponents look good. But her booking is problematic as well.
Then stupid crap like turning Shotzi heel, taking away everything that made her cool and unique (see my above comment about not booking to talent’s strengths), and having her lose ever match since then as well. Or your new “monster heel” Doudrop immediately losing three matches in a row on TV just so we can be reminded yet again that “Bianca is strong.” Etc.
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Post by nisidhe on Dec 30, 2021 10:54:03 GMT -5
So, instead of the all the releases WWE undertook in 2021, is it likely that the Great Resignation has begun to hit wrestling's biggest company?
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 30, 2021 11:01:13 GMT -5
HMARK made a great point about the necessity of a midcard. The term 'midcarder' is used as an insult in WWE, but if you think of the most successful eras in wrestling history, they have always had a thriving mid-card, tag division, etc. Not only is it more stars you can promote, but it's also where your next crop of main-eventers are likely to come from. If you recall, WWE once released a DVD called 'Monday Night War'. Most people remember it for the infamous 'confused, yet interested' line, but there are a couple of other points made which are worth sharing. The first was Jim Ross, who said one of the major problems WCW had was they never made new stars as they went along. They were content with the names at the top, & nobody else could hang with that elite group (bar Goldberg). This obviously has parallels today, with WWE only interested in it's top stars right now looking good, screw elevating anyone. The second comes from Rey Mysterio, who laments that he & the other cruiserweights would look at the Fed & watch Edge, Christian, Matt & Jeff get presented as stars. He said there was no reason he couldn't be a star in WCW too. This, too, draws parallels with the way WWE treats it's midcard today. The reason I bring this up isn't just because WWE have forgotten the lessons of the past, but they are the very company which created this DVD, conducted these interviews, approved it for release, still repeats those very errors. Vince never cares about the midcard unless he has to. In the 80s he had to make money to pay for the company. So the midcard and tag teams had to be strong to headline tours as Vince had to run three sometimes to make enough money. Then when he almost went under in the 90s he built another strong midcard as his main event was not enough on its own. Now that he makes money despite himself he will never push any midcard act to any real degree because he does not have to. Even with Becky Lynch being the biggest star created in 5 years he still treats the women as an afterthought.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 30, 2021 11:08:01 GMT -5
When I keep saying that Charlotte’s booking HURTS the women’s division these days, well here’s another example. Let’s also remember how she crushed Rhea and Nikki’s momentum earlier this year as well. Becky at least TRIES a bit more to make her opponents look good. But her booking is problematic as well. Then stupid crap like turning Shotzi heel, taking away everything that made her cool and unique (see my above comment about not booking to talent’s strengths), and having her lose ever match since then as well. Or your new “monster heel” Doudrop immediately losing three matches in a row on TV just so we can be reminded yet again that “Bianca is strong.” Etc. Charlotte I think shows a lot of the negatives of early FCW/NXT training. Very talented but when things don't go as plan gets completely lost and in some instances acts like a child. I also dont think Charlotte has ever been as popular as WWE thinks she is/wants her to be. Not that she isn't over (I think that's unfair) but I'd argue foe most of their run she is the least popular of the Horsemen and I'd argue less popular than people like Alexa and Bianca as well. On to Becky, that kind of goes with the training around that time frame. WWE did (dunno if they still do or not) would tell their trainers that they had to get themselves over with their moves. Becky was trained outside of WWE and understands that you get over thanks to your opponents. And Shotzi... I always figured she would be watered down for same reason Ruby wad. Vince and Bruce think women are over 100 percent based on beauty and they likely don't see the attraction to her so they're trying to conform her to a more traditional look
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 30, 2021 11:24:17 GMT -5
HMARK made a great point about the necessity of a midcard. The term 'midcarder' is used as an insult in WWE, but if you think of the most successful eras in wrestling history, they have always had a thriving mid-card, tag division, etc. Not only is it more stars you can promote, but it's also where your next crop of main-eventers are likely to come from. If you recall, WWE once released a DVD called 'Monday Night War'. Most people remember it for the infamous 'confused, yet interested' line, but there are a couple of other points made which are worth sharing. The first was Jim Ross, who said one of the major problems WCW had was they never made new stars as they went along. They were content with the names at the top, & nobody else could hang with that elite group (bar Goldberg). This obviously has parallels today, with WWE only interested in it's top stars right now looking good, screw elevating anyone. The second comes from Rey Mysterio, who laments that he & the other cruiserweights would look at the Fed & watch Edge, Christian, Matt & Jeff get presented as stars. He said there was no reason he couldn't be a star in WCW too. This, too, draws parallels with the way WWE treats it's midcard today. The reason I bring this up isn't just because WWE have forgotten the lessons of the past, but they are the very company which created this DVD, conducted these interviews, approved it for release, still repeats those very errors. Vince never cares about the midcard unless he has to. In the 80s he had to make money to pay for the company. So the midcard and tag teams had to be strong to headline tours as Vince had to run three sometimes to make enough money. Then when he almost went under in the 90s he built another strong midcard as his main event was not enough on its own. Now that he makes money despite himself he will never push any midcard act to any real degree because he does not have to. Even with Becky Lynch being the biggest star created in 5 years he still treats the women as an afterthought. The comparisons with WCW are also interesting: I've often felt that some of the stories of WCW midcarders being "stuck in purgatory" or something were overblown: guys like Benoit, Guerrero, and Jericho, for example, got good amounts of TV time, got featured feuds, got featured in high profile material (e.g. Benoit's spot in the Horsemen, Jericho's usual promo time, and the like), etc. It's also not as if some of the midcarders in WWF were suddenly hitting the main event in that 1998-2000 window that many people point to the time when WCW midcarders were thought to be stagnating. However, I think where there's a clear parallel is that those WCW midcarders felt they had hit the glass ceiling; they were likely getting ideas shot down a lot or other messages that made it clear "we don't value you that much". Again, someone being a midcarder or upper midcarder isn't in and of itself the problem; the problem is feeling like you're not valued or that you have no real input on your career. With the Rey Mysterio quote, I think there's an even clearer parallel; so often the cruiserweights were sent out to "pop the crowd" with highspots and fast-paced matches, but getting a story of some kind? That was exceedingly rare, and no doubt hurt a lot of wrestlers' chances of really getting over with the audience in a much stronger way. Comparing that with modern WWE, it's a little easier to see the similarities; lots of people stuck in catering, or stuck without real stories to tell, or stuck with no input on the direction of their career or whatever else. Much tougher to compare things with the 80s, of course: that was the time when the roster was jam-packed with experienced vets and all stars from all around the various territories that Vince could throw tons of money at, but who had enough clout that they could make certain demands to protect themselves (e.g. Piper and Bad News always doing brawls to the back instead of clean finishes...which made their WM VI finish pretty predictable), and who always had enough feuds lined up that it basically meant every Survivor Series team could be 8 or 10 people with their own beefs going on that could be highlighted.
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Post by mistery on Dec 30, 2021 11:55:33 GMT -5
I mentioned it already but people really do need to remember that Toni's career was already on the downswing when she ended up with WWE. Her Progress run fell off a cliff, and her Stardom stint was just outright terrible. She got outclassed by Jinny and other women real quickly in Progress, and had a real nasty meltdown in Stardom, because she was massively unpopular with fans there.
That's not on WWE. That's on Toni herself. And while they didn't do her any favors on the main roster, they gave her several chances to do well in NXT and she fumbled the ball almost every time. It's little wonder they lost confidence in her.
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